 Poster: A snowHead
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I was disappointed that there was no mention of Snow-Camp https://www.snow-camp.org.uk and the amazing work they do on brining diversity into snow sports
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| radar wrote: |
| I was disappointed that there was no mention of Snow-Camp https://www.snow-camp.org.uk and the amazing work they do on brining diversity into snow sports |
Whole feature the previous week
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, indeed, though a mention or a reference to them in this segment would have been appropriate.
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| It is easy to be outside the ethnic minorities telling ethnic minorities what the problem is, |
The piece was presented by someone who was mixed race.
| Extremophile wrote: |
| but as an ethnic minority growing up, my activities were always limited by money. |
Sure but as pointed out in the piece there are lot of BAME's with means to go skiing - so that doesn't answer the question.
| Extremophile wrote: |
| I have seen plenty of minorities skiing from a multitude of nationalities. |
You seem to be suggesting there is no issue?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| cc_7up wrote: |
| I suspect that Winter Sports holidays will not be offering the affordability(Post Pandemic) that we have enjoyed in previous decades which will put foreign Skiing/Snow Boarding holidays out of the reach of the Working Class Waged people (of all Colours) for decades to come. |
Where do you pull that idea from?
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What a rubbish episode.
As for the diversity piece, well I dont see many BAME on planes to spain either.
Failed to mention the huge indoor slopes in the middle east or the japanese and asian resorts, etc.
People dont go to enjoy the snow is either because they dont want to, or cant afford it.
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| Quote: |
DavidYacht wrote:
I suspect that the barriers are more about money, class and proximity to the mountains rather than ethnicity.
I suppose we could just never discuss it. That would help, right?
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I was not dissing the discussion just the way it was presented.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| It is easy to be outside the ethnic minorities telling ethnic minorities what the problem is, |
The piece was presented by someone who was mixed race.
| Extremophile wrote: |
| but as an ethnic minority growing up, my activities were always limited by money. |
Sure but as pointed out in the piece there are lot of BAME's with means to go skiing - so that doesn't answer the question.
| Extremophile wrote: |
| I have seen plenty of minorities skiing from a multitude of nationalities. |
You seem to be suggesting there is no issue? |
Sure, but does that mean there I see actually a problem... and while the piece was indeed presented by mixed race, interviewing an ethnic minority, as some else's on here said - the young lad seemed quite embarrassed, and if the presenter wants to find a 'problem' I'm sure that he would have been able superimpose the goalposts around what you consider to be a problem.
On the second point, you skilfully edited around the examples I gave as to why some people may not go... so, not really sure what your point Is here.
I'm suggesting that the issues aren't what people think they are.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If more BAME communities can be introduced to skiing then that will probably also encourage more younger people in general to try skiing. Something we are going to need if skiing is to have a medium term future.
In England as we approach the 90th anniversary of the Kinder trespass there is cross party support to step up efforts to make the beautiful places accessible to all.
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| Sure, but does that mean there I see actually a problem... |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| I'm suggesting that the issues aren't what people think they are. |
Yeah and unfortunately I am still none the wiser as to what the issues are.
Anyhow, nobody seems to have liked the piece and SS is done for the season so....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The bit about the young lad didn’t work for me.
“Kid from Aviemore likes skiing” is hardly newsworthy. To be frank, “Kid from Aviemore has never tried skiing” would be more newsworthy.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The whole piece just struck me as the result of an edict from upon high in the BBC that a condition of this years series going ahead was a substantial piece on this subject. The fact that it was shown at the end of a week when there were so many good races they could have shown the highlights of was a real pity. We were also shown relatively little of the race that we did see.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| Sure, but does that mean there I see actually a problem... |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| I'm suggesting that the issues aren't what people think they are. |
Yeah and unfortunately I am still none the wiser as to what the issues are.
Anyhow, nobody seems to have liked the piece and SS is done for the season so.... |
Typo, stupid ipad keeps changing it - should have been 'is'... surely it wasn't that difficult to deduce.
Plenty of people have said what some of the issues are on this thread. Again, they aren't that difficult to deduce, I suppose you have to be willing to see beyond the easy excuse of 'culture'.
Many of the reasons (as with most things) are multilayered, therefore you have to be willing to try to understand at least some of the many reasons, if you're not willing, then you'll never know, and probably keep blaming 'culture'.
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You know it makes sense.
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Gonna do a bit of rough first account research this morning - I'll report back this afternoon...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Back in Episode 61 I interviewed the founders of Mount Noire, a tour operator for BAME skiers. Might be of interest to hear what they have to say:
https://theskipodcast.com/podcast/episode-61-courchevel-eiger-express-engelberg-picture-organic/
I read about their operation, thought it was interesting and worth promoting, but quite frankly I was petrified of saying the 'wrong' thing. As this thread seems to prove, you're either a racist or suffering from wokeness if you have an opinion either way. I notice that all conversation relating to this on Facebook Ski Group have been removed because it was too hard to moderate, so if anything that may demonstrate that Snowheads are a reasonable bunch.
FWIW I think SnowCamp do an excellent job of bringing minorities to the snow. If we wanted to do more, the obvious best step forward would be to help schools get back to organising trips. This is the most effective way to bring skiing to a new audience, whatever colour their skin is.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| iainm wrote: |
| FWIW I think SnowCamp do an excellent job of bringing minorities to the snow. If we wanted to do more, the obvious best step forward would be to help schools get back to organising trips. This is the most effective way to bring skiing to a new audience, whatever colour their skin is. |
As do the UCPA from my past experience in Flaine; I'm not sure you could find a more diverse mix of people in a single location.
..Nick
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| iainm wrote: |
Back in Episode 61 I interviewed the founders of Mount Noire, a tour operator for BAME skiers. Might be of interest to hear what they have to say:
https://theskipodcast.com/podcast/episode-61-courchevel-eiger-express-engelberg-picture-organic/
I read about their operation, thought it was interesting and worth promoting, but quite frankly I was petrified of saying the 'wrong' thing. As this thread seems to prove, you're either a racist or suffering from wokeness if you have an opinion either way. I notice that all conversation relating to this on Facebook Ski Group have been removed because it was too hard to moderate, so if anything that may demonstrate that Snowheads are a reasonable bunch.
FWIW I think SnowCamp do an excellent job of bringing minorities to the snow. If we wanted to do more, the obvious best step forward would be to help schools get back to organising trips. This is the most effective way to bring skiing to a new audience, whatever colour their skin is. |
Most subjects are divisive these days, people don't seem able to have a sensible discussion about something, it either descends in to nit picking as to why someone think you're wrong, comments about spelling/grammar or insults... reasonable discussion rarely exists anymore (waiting for someone to nit pick at why they think i'm wrong, insults about my spelling/grammar or insult me)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Extremophile, I genuinely didn't know what your statement was and it could have been taken in two ways so I wanted to clarify.
I don't think it's nit picking to point out the guy doing the whole piece was mixed race or that the narrative that some people don't have the money is at loggerheads with your experience.
It's clear to me, now at least, what your view is. I am not sure I have a particular strong view, was just up for discussion.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@iainm,
| Quote: |
FWIW I think SnowCamp do an excellent job of bringing minorities to the snow. If we wanted to do more, the obvious best step forward would be to help schools get back to organising trips. This is the most effective way to bring skiing to a new audience, whatever colour their skin is.
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like others on here, I also think snowcamp is a good programme to get disadvantaged kids (of all backgrounds) interested in snow sports. I have been to Hemel several times in the last few years and witnessed this in operation.
with regards to school ski holidays, it would be interesting to find out how many schools from deprived areas are able to even offer ski trips. maybe, this could be a topic for a future episode of your podcast?
personally, I don't think schools outside of these areas struggle to get school ski trips organised.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Reading Phil Young's MPROA piece (thanks @3valleysofpow) about role-models, and @Extremophiles posts about Guides made me start thinking about my youngest's best mate. He is young lad of 9 whose parents are 2nd gen Jamaican, recently decided to drop out of Cubs. There were a few reasons, but one is that he was the only black kid in the group - nobody was mean to him or excluded him or anything like that, and he had several existing friends in the group, but he just felt it wasn't for him as there wasn't anyone like him there.
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| Layne wrote: |
@Extremophile, I genuinely didn't know what your statement was and it could have been taken in two ways so I wanted to clarify.
I don't think it's nit picking to point out the guy doing the whole piece was mixed race or that the narrative that some people don't have the money is at loggerheads with your experience.
It's clear to me, now at least, what your view is. I am not sure I have a particular strong view, was just up for discussion. |
To be fair, I wasn't talking about you in particular - however, my point still stands. Unfortunately I have seen the wheels come off many a snowheads discussion because someone didn't use the correct spelling or grammar, there are also those who have several thousand posts who seem to behave as if they have a duty to attempt to tear apart your opinions about something because it is different than theirs. Probably get lynched for that comment, but it is observable nevertheless.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Reading Phil Young's MPROA piece (thanks @3valleysofpow) about role-models, and @Extremophiles posts about Guides made me start thinking about my youngest's best mate. He is young lad of 9 whose parents are 2nd gen Jamaican, recently decided to drop out of Cubs. There were a few reasons, but one is that he was the only black kid in the group - nobody was mean to him or excluded him or anything like that, and he had several existing friends in the group, but he just felt it wasn't for him as there wasn't anyone like him there. |
Wasn't anyone who looked like me in my brownies or guides, but it didn't stop me. I think sometimes some people think there should be others 'like them', sometimes we get so hung up about thinking we're not going to be accepted because we're 'the odd one out', when that doesn't exist a lot of the time (sure sometimes it does, but most of the time, no). All kids are encouraged to be themselves and not worry about fitting in, but sometimes fears about not fitting in because we're different is a projection. If the young boy had friends and no one was mean or excluded him he left because there was no one like him... that's a shame, but surely then the question is why does he need someone to look like him?
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This results of this morning's live mini-research...
A class of 14, L1 (so lower end of academic scale), learners from a northern, working class college; they are 21% BAME (UK average is 11%) / 21% have financial support from college / 57% male / 43% female. Obviously not a representative sample size, but these are real, lived opinions & experiences; case studies, if you like.
There were a few general questions about other activities, before getting to snowsports. In response to "if you have never tried snowsports, why not?", the answers were:
No time 8%
Too expensive 35%
No opportunity 23%
Not interested 23%
Too scared to try 8%
(all their own answers - no options were provided).
1 x BAME has done it
1 x BAME "too scared to try it"
1 x BAME has physical barriers
I ended the class by showing the SS clip - the learners didn't get it.
This is not evidence that there aren't hidden barriers around ethnicity that we don't need to overcome, but it does show prominent voices are capable of projecting their unconscious bias onto a situation, creating issues where there are none. These can become self-fulfilling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Richard_Sideways, When recruiting to our ski trips, the first thing the females would ask is "how many other girls are going?"
Whether it's gender, sex, ethnicity, age - we all feel a sense of "safety in numbers" and a desire to have people "like us" around us.
That is a barrier we place upon ourselves though.
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@NickYoung, Thanks for that, it's interesting. I suspect that if you did the same research anywhere in the UK to whatever range of ethnicities and backgrounds you'd get similar answers but with different percentages.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There were a couple of mentions earlier in the thread of climbing being similar to snowsports in being very white. The growth of climbing in the UK was connected to the campaigns for access to private land like the Kinder Scout tresspass, it was very much an activity for working class people from northern towns.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| NickYoung wrote: |
This results of this morning's live mini-research...
A class of 14, L1 (so lower end of academic scale), learners from a northern, working class college; they are 21% BAME (UK average is 11%) / 21% have financial support from college / 57% male / 43% female. Obviously not a representative sample size, but these are real, lived opinions & experiences; case studies, if you like.
There were a few general questions about other activities, before getting to snowsports. In response to "if you have never tried snowsports, why not?", the answers were:
No time 8%
Too expensive 35%
No opportunity 23%
Not interested 23%
Too scared to try 8%
(all their own answers - no options were provided).
1 x BAME has done it
1 x BAME "too scared to try it"
1 x BAME has physical barriers
I ended the class by showing the SS clip - the learners didn't get it.
This is not evidence that there aren't hidden barriers around ethnicity that we don't need to overcome, but it does show prominent voices are capable of projecting their unconscious bias onto a situation, creating issues where there are none. These can become self-fulfilling. |
Nice one for doing that. I think the Beeb, with all their resources, should have looked much harder at data and presented some real world evidence like that but with a bigger sample size and more questions (remember 'facts'? We used to have them). So, you are right, the UK is almost 90% white British and the BAME community in itself has the most inequality/diversity within it - eg of all UK ethnicities (including white British) Indians (along with the much smaller Chinese population) are most likely to be employed, they earn the most per hour, they are least likely to come from a broken home. If you know any Indian families, they put education above everything. The black community is at the other end of the spectrum unfortunately, and about 3 times more likely to be from a broken home. So to blanket everything as BAME and present an angle that they don't feel welcome in skiing/boarding, which isn't true, I would say is plain poor journalism, the issues are SO much bigger. Only 3% of the UK population are black so just based on mathematics alone, you will encounter very few black skiers and snowboarders. In my experience all sports present pretty much the same picture.
I re-watched the Vicky Gosling segment - he really needed to push her more as she was just paying lip service IMO. I don't think GB Snowsport will be doing anything about this.
Someone mentioned school ski trips. Have you seen the prices?  If heavily subsidised then a good idea but not otherwise.
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I will watch the segment at some point but this "BAME" classification is a complete contrived piece of nonsense. So how can it be used to create any (justified or otherwise) action plan. Are we to think you can group all people in the UK who are not white into one homogenous statistical group? Many countries, races, religions and countless languages. Its an absolute joke. I know many Indians by race who would be appalled at being grouped as such, due to various reasons, as a start.
If there is a problem (is there?) what could GB Snowsports practically do in any case? I wouldn't know what poor Ms Gosling would be able to say that they would do apart from that on this page which I see has now has popped up on their website.
https://gbsnowsport.com/diversity-and-inclusion/
Is a subsidy wanted to be given to "BAME" members to go skiing with, with as price really is the big determinant in the main when it comes to skiing. And if so sign me up, I can qualify but I too wouldn't go with being lumped into this so called grouping.
I had no "cultural" background of skiing before I went (I will hold my hand up to say that it was "subsidised" by the British taxpayer as part of an OTC trip though we were serving our country). I'm a minority, no one like me was on the trip. I liked it, I went again. I dont worry that I may find no-one like me there, in fact how could I given I am a very specific minority, and even finding a Brit of any race is some resorts is not likely.
When it comes down to it, its an mainly economic thing no matter your colour.
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You know it makes sense.
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Skiing with my black B-in-Law a few years ago . We were having a conversation along the lines of there not being many black recreational skiers. He said, black people don't really do the cold or camping. End of conversation.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@albob, "Mount Noire acknowledges that skiing is expensive and says they plan to develop an outreach program to make the sport more accessible to those from lower socio-economic backgrounds."
Brilliant to see.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| Skiing with my black B-in-Law a few years ago....He said black people don't really do the cold |
I am sure that, in the past, there have been people involved in professional football who have been slated (if not sacked) for similar statements about players in winter.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Alastair Pink, I thought he was standing a bit oddly sometimes. An odd reason given as to why he didn't mention it during the show, just goes with the territory, doesnt it? And that stump looks bloody massive, it must have been well and truly covered but is hard to mistake in the photos.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Alastair Pink, ouch. He did a proper job on that!
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| iainm wrote: |
| I also understand Ed Leigh has done his ACL, but didn't look like that in the intro piece last week...recorded a long way in advance? |
Just saying, if you want exclusives, come to The Ski Podcast 
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So if he can't run away - why can't you pin him down for that interview @iainm?
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Good question! As it goes I'm backed up on content for the next month now, so it's slipped off my radar for now
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My first group skiing experience (DH's family) was with a group which included a British oil worker and his Nigerian fiancé (now wife, also worked around the world in oil and gas). Despite having the budget to throw everything at getting his fiancé to love skiing (nice restaurants, ski to door chalet, private lessons, private helicopter transfer!, group she knew from home) she really hated the cold and snow too much to enjoy skiing.
From the sound of it this reaction isn't that uncommon for partners of established skiers but her husband did his best (with the £££ options most don't have) and she still hated the cold. To be fair Zermatt, Courchevel or Cortina in April might have worked better than Tignes in January...
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FAQ
