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ski sunday return 10-01-2021

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NickYoung wrote:
I have spent over a decade getting working class kids (mainly), from one of the most deprived areas of northern England into snowsports, via an annual trip to Austria. I reckon I have introduced over 400 kids into snowsports, many of whom still ski/board today.

The BAME faces were there, but rare. When you try to encourage them to participate, they don't say "but skiing is for white people", they say "it's not something I'm interested in". It's not in their cultural scope (though I try to challenge and change that).

The white kids who didn't want to go also said "it's not something I'm interested in".

*I've just realised by saying that it's not in their cultural scope, I have made an assumption based on their ethnicity - the truth is probably "it's not something I'm interested in".

Three things stood out in the report for me;

Firstly, the American bloke who linked the continued "whiteness" of the mountains at past segregation - that's clearly particular to the US, as we have never had segregation in Europe.

Secondly, when Ed Leigh made the point that BAME have disposable income that they want to spend, possibly in the mountains - the kids I deal with (of all ethnicities), are told skiing isn't for them because they are poor - "it's a rich man's game". Break that barrier and you break the BAME barrier.

Finally, the same American bloke "advising the brands"??? In what way is how Burton design their kit, a cultural barrier to BAME getting into the hills?? It sounds more like "BAME have disposable money - how do we get it off of them?"

Like @Jonny996, I think I was left feeling I was being lectured and told I'm a racist. (Oh, I think that's white fragility rolling eyes )


Your point on lack of segregation - true the extent and focus was different, but there certainly has been racial segregation in Europe (and Europeans equally have a history of use and abuse of black people, though the most obvious C20 example is probably the Jewish experience?); it's possibly more that the segregation has been in opportunity and less overt (though 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish..') But that rolls into your second point on the 'too poor' thing - and this is probably the key. Historically, BAME communities in Europe have been less well off for all the historic reasons, and the slopes have been seen as a rich man's playground. It's only pretty recently that the package holiday has changed the latter, and maybe it will take some time for that to filter through.

As a complete about face on that note, tourism could provide the counter to lack of representation - seen many more BAME skiers from long haul destinations holidaying in Europe, welcomed with open arms. Just musing, but again it may take time and a a slow change of attitude in the UK? Don't know if you've noticed a slow change in the years you've been working with kids?

The Burton chap - I guess it's a bit like brands roping in Rihanna to advertise luxury products, new market, new money, change of advertising tactics. Surely that's what most ski brands are about, fleecing the consumer... wink

I just find it really interesting, rather than uncomfortable, and I reckon the Beeb got it right in giving a different voice. Should be nowt wrong with that! The fact it sparks quite deep discussion is a good thing.
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Mike Pow wrote:
I look forward to seeing the BBC programme / segment on why cycling is so white.

Damn sight more accessible and cheaper than skiing.

If the BBC had really wanted to address this then Phil could have been on the show all season. Used to love Board Stupid.

I've worked with and taught BAME skiers and snowboarders, admittedly not many, and like me they started because they saw programmes on TV and segments in films and wanted to give it a go.

I was the first person in my family to ski and I did it through working as a chalet boy.

Pre-brexit and COVID there was never a better time for someone of any background to try winter sports.


Here you go. There's a section on it in this article. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200724-will-covid-19-make-urban-cycling-more-inclusive
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Timmycb5 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
I look forward to seeing the BBC programme / segment on why cycling is so white.

Damn sight more accessible and cheaper than skiing.

If the BBC had really wanted to address this then Phil could have been on the show all season. Used to love Board Stupid.

I've worked with and taught BAME skiers and snowboarders, admittedly not many, and like me they started because they saw programmes on TV and segments in films and wanted to give it a go.

I was the first person in my family to ski and I did it through working as a chalet boy.

Pre-brexit and COVID there was never a better time for someone of any background to try winter sports.


Here you go. There's a section on it in this article. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200724-will-covid-19-make-urban-cycling-more-inclusive


Good read, thanks.

I meant when the BBC next covers competitive cycling and devotes 20 minutes to delivering the same message as last night.
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@Mike Pow, Does the BBC have a magazine style cycling programme? It'll probably happen when that exists! Alongside the segments on BMX-ing 14 year old wonders and how to understand crazy mountain-biking terminology. wink Little Angel
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Ski lots wrote:
I was talking to a guy of SE Asian heritage at Braehead a few years ago. He was a very good skier, but it turned out that he had never actually been to the mountains. When I asked him why not, he said that ski resorts were not for people like him. I clarified that he meant for people of his ethnicity. Whilst I tried to persuade him otherwise in truth I could see what he meant. If that is how you feel it is going to be a very big barrier to participation.


Lots (relative to Europe) of SE Asian skiers and snowboarders in US/Canada particularly from the west coast but definitely still a non representative number of black and hispanic people on the slopes. Now some of that is definitely down to cost factors.

The Ski Sunday segment was a bit clumsy I'll give you but yeah sports like skiing, cycling, climbing etc are ridiculously white if you think about it. It obviously doesn't mean that you're a racist for skiing but there are factors other than "well there is nothing stopping them if they want" before it is perceived as a sport for all.


http://youtube.com/v/PBmOrWXfntY

As for Sal Masekela, well he's far more than just the Burton chap. He was the lead presenter of the X Games for years and comes from music royalty. Probably done more than most in opening up role models in snowsports.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2380521/unlikely-preacher-action-sports-sal-masekela


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 22-02-21 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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Hmm, was a bit 'Swing and a miss' but some kudos for addressing the issue even though it was never going to be a palatable segment. I'm with @NickYoung, the key barrier is more economic and applies for any ethnicity, although if you asked "What's the Whitest activity you can think of?" skiing is probably up there. I don't know what the SH demographic makeup is, but I'll lay odd on that it's not going to be anywhere near 12% BAME.
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@Mike Pow, Think there were more BAME competitors at the Ski World Championships than in the Tour de France.
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Richard_Sideways wrote:
the key barrier is more economic and applies for any ethnicity, although if you asked "What's the Whitest activity you can think of?" skiing is probably up there..


I'd shoot for "having a fondue in England" wink
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@Dave of the Marmottes, that video! Laughing Feel like they should have just played that on Ski Sunday as a mike drop and left it there. Brilliant.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, hey - that was the molten pot I buried this season in...
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Jesus, the comments around this segment are depressing.

Phil didn't accuse anyone of being racist for skiing or snowboarding.

Making sports more accessible to new or under represented demographics doesn't make it less accessible to the demographics currently practicing them.

Why anyone who enjoys mountain sports should take offence to someone who has experience of feeling excluded from those sports and trying to change that is beyond me. More people skiing and snowboarding is inherently a good thing and vital to the future of the industry.
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rjs wrote:
@Mike Pow, Think there were more BAME competitors at the Ski World Championships than in the Tour de France.


Don't doubt it
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NickYoung wrote:


Finally, the same American bloke "advising the brands"??? In what way is how Burton design their kit, a cultural barrier to BAME getting into the hills?? It sounds more like "BAME have disposable money - how do we get it off of them?"



That American bloke Salema Masekela commentates for VICE, ESPN, Red Bull and various other places, has worked with Jake Burton since the 90s and has a clear and coherent message about his experiences in his career in action sports. Why would he have anything useful to contribute?
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I'm looking forward to the same 'BAME segment' in the BBC's next coverage of the World Swimming Championships.
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@3valleysofpow, He is perfectly placed to take about his experiences.

The SS piece made the point he advises Burton on BAME issues. I don't understand what the effect of clothing or equipment has on access to snowsports - apart from cost, which affects everyone from a working class background, regardless of ethnicity. I don't see Burton cutting prices to open up skiing to poorer people.

@ElzP, There has been no segregation (apart from on the basis on income/class), in European wintersports, given the "mass" ski industry is in reality, what 60 years old??
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@NickYoung, sorry, crossed wires, I was talking about segregation in general, not in relation to winter sports! As I noted, the income/class barriers are often due to historic segregation/lack of opportunity/ill treatment - but more generally. I understood the discussion of segregation in the US on Ski Sunday to be in more general terms rather than specific to snow sports.
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@ElzP, Ah...as the SS piece was obviously well intentioned, but as @Dave of the Marmottes, said, it was "clumsy" in covering this deep and complicated issue.
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NickYoung wrote:
@3valleysofpow, He is perfectly placed to take about his experiences.

The SS piece made the point he advises Burton on BAME issues. I don't understand what the effect of clothing or equipment has on access to snowsports - apart from cost, which affects everyone from a working class background, regardless of ethnicity. I don't see Burton cutting prices to open up skiing to poorer people.



Different cuts of clothing? Women (white) complain all the time that ski clothing isn't great at addressing different body types. Add racial diversity into the mix and you can see how that plays out. Plus y'know snowboarding has kinda leaned heavily on the rap/gangsta/bling image which may or may not be entirely culturallly sensitive along with rastafarian elements (to be fair skiing has been there too). Maybe Burton want to do the equivalent of Snow Camp in opening up opportunties for city kids? There are lots of perfectly sensible reasons which give a win-win from engaging on such things rather than complaining about wokeness.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I have never mentioned wokeness - not sure why you are suggesting that.

If Mr Maskela has been working with Burton since the 90's, as suggested, then the lack of POC on the slopes lies partly with him - hasn't achieved much has he!

Snow Camp is an utterly perfect example of what can be achieved in diversifying our sport = facilitate OPPORTUNITY for previously hard to reach communities.

I think the Go Ski, Go Board initiative has aimed in the direction of state schools also.
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NickYoung wrote:
@3valleysofpow, He is perfectly placed to take about his experiences.

The SS piece made the point he advises Burton on BAME issues. I don't understand what the effect of clothing or equipment has on access to snowsports - apart from cost, which affects everyone from a working class background, regardless of ethnicity. I don't see Burton cutting prices to open up skiing to poorer people.



It comes back to "You can't be it if you can't see it" a point well made in the film. He can talk to the Burton board about his experiences and they can use that information to inform the development of their brand and messaging going forward.

If you're interested in knowing his opinions and experiences the Looking Sideways podcast episode he's on is a great place to start.

https://wearelookingsideways.com/podcasts/146-selema-masekela
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Mike Pow wrote:
rjs wrote:
@Mike Pow, Think there were more BAME competitors at the Ski World Championships than in the Tour de France.


Don't doubt it


What's the point you're making? That there might be a structural issue in terms of accessibility to sports that could be more open and inclusive?

Sport doesn't exist in a vacuum anymore than any other part of life. If the biggest snowsports programme on UK television doesn't cover the issue then who should?
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@3valleysofpow, I'm sure the very short SS piece didn't do anything more than scratch the surface of this subject - it was horribly clumsy, and I will indeed take time to look at the link you share.

My previous post is consistent with the "If you can't see it, You can't be it" = create real opportunity.

Scholars of equality will know there are actually 2 measures - equality of outcome gets the headlines, but it's equality of opportunity that creates real change.
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NickYoung wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes

If Mr Maskela has been working with Burton since the 90's, as suggested, then the lack of POC on the slopes lies partly with him - hasn't achieved much has he!
.


Or the problem is really deep rooted and it's hard to get it out there in the face of resistance or apathy?

I'd not heard of the bloke and didn't have a clue who he was, which probably tells me that either a) it's not easy to watch the things he's been involved in on TV over here or b) I'm not taking enough notice of things outside my realm of experience, even when related to the hobby I love. I'd like to think it's just the former but it's probably the latter unfortunately.
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Mike Pow wrote:
rjs wrote:
@Mike Pow, Think there were more BAME competitors at the Ski World Championships than in the Tour de France.


Don't doubt it


And yet in the Ski Sunday coverage of the men's WC Slalom on Sunday, and the wrap up of the other events from Cortina in the same episode, they showed no BAME competitors or athletes from outside of the medal potentials?? They absolutely had the opportunity to pick and choose which runs to show and to put the spotlight on a cross section of the competitors and not just the fastest/most successful.
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NickYoung wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, I have never mentioned wokeness - not sure why you are suggesting that.

If Mr Maskela has been working with Burton since the 90's, as suggested, then the lack of POC on the slopes lies partly with him - hasn't achieved much has he!

Snow Camp is an utterly perfect example of what can be achieved in diversifying our sport = facilitate OPPORTUNITY for previously hard to reach communities.

I think the Go Ski, Go Board initiative has aimed in the direction of state schools also.


I was only identifying the general trend in complaining about wokeness for such appointments sorry not you personally. But I do think it's ridiculous to say it's his fault or that there even is a defined measure around what is appropriate in representation. The importance of it is awareness and maybe just so we think a bit more - maybe we don't assume a black colleague won't be interested if we talk about skiing or that I should not tape up a sore kneecap with tubigrip and ducttape and call it a ghetto kneebrace.
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NickYoung wrote:
@3valleysofpow, I'm sure the very short SS piece didn't do anything more than scratch the surface of this subject - it was horribly clumsy, and I will indeed take time to look at the link you share.

My previous post is consistent with the "If you can't see it, You can't be it" = create real opportunity.

Scholars of equality will know there are actually 2 measures - equality of outcome gets the headlines, but it's equality of opportunity that creates real change.


Phil Young expanded on the subject in a piece for Mpora. https://mpora.com/multi-sport/does-the-outdoors-have-a-race-problem/ which is worth a read too.

I didn't find it clumsy, just consistent with what BAME athletes have been saying about the outdoor industry as a whole. As for the length of the piece it was consistent with the length of segment available on Ski Sunday. It's obviously not long enough to cover the issue but it was a real opportunity for the issue to be discussed on the biggest snow sports programme in the UK.
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[quote="

I was only identifying the general trend in complaining about wokeness for such appointments sorry not you personally. But I do think it's ridiculous to say it's his fault or that there even is a defined measure around what is appropriate in representation. The importance of it is awareness and maybe just so we think a bit more - maybe we don't assume a black colleague won't be interested if we talk about skiing or that I should not tape up a sore kneecap with tubigrip and ducttape and call it a ghetto kneebrace.[/quote]

Ah, right.

It wasn't you who said it I don't think, but if your job has been creating diversity, but after 30 years, there is no progress = you have failed and it's cheap to say it's because of "whiteness". I'm not sure if Mr Masekela's actual role has been overstated in that regard. I have no doubt it's not his "fault" in reality.

I never assume someone doesn't share my passion - and if they don't, I try to convince them about what you are missing.

I am very proud of the number females, and BAME learners I have "got" into snowsports. It's mainly been a case of making them aware of the opportunity and convincing them to try.

And ghetto kneebrace??? Is that a saying???
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NickYoung wrote:
[quote="

It wasn't you who said it I don't think, but if your job has been creating diversity, but after 30 years, there is no progress = you have failed and it's cheap to say it's because of "whiteness". I'm not sure if Mr Masekela's actual role has been overstated in that regard. I have no doubt it's not his "fault" in reality.



You may mean my response, but I certainly didn't say it was because of whiteness! Shocked I said it was because it's a difficult problem to solve in the face of resistance or apathy. Just like social inequality in the UK, as you've no doubt experienced doing what you do.
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Markymark29 wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, nah, it was just a cheap punt by the BBC. Same could be true of many sports, eg; cycling, golf, sailing. Imv it was a cheap shot at being politically hip and they failed badly. May be true in the US but not in Europe.


All you're doing is highlighting that there's a problem across the board with this and not just snowsports. Pretty sure the Beeb don't cover road cycling to a large extent but if they did then hopefully they would do the same during their coverage there.

As you are so interested in people in other sports highlighting the issue you might like to see this article about British Giro d'Italia winner Tao Geoghegan-Hart taking issue with his own sport recently.

https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/giro-d-italia-winner-tao-geoghegan-hart-cycling-has-a-problem-with-diversity-and-inclusivity_sto8136130/story.shtml
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@ElzP, You didn't say it, he did!
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I'd like to know why white people are under-represented in athletics and when the BBC are going to address the issue.
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NickYoung wrote:
[quote="

It wasn't you who said it I don't think, but if your job has been creating diversity, but after 30 years, there is no progress = you have failed and it's cheap to say it's because of "whiteness". I'm not sure if Mr Masekela's actual role has been overstated in that regard. I have no doubt it's not his "fault" in reality.



It was me who talked about Salema. The prevailing feeling from the posts on here was that he is some nobody and I wanted to point out that he is a credible and credentialed commentator with relevant experience from across the pond.
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NickYoung wrote:
I'd like to know why white people are under-represented in athletics and when the BBC are going to address the issue.


Are they?

Or do you only watch the sprinting? Toofy Grin
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Didn't have a particular problem other than it dragged a bit.

I've been aware of the lack of BAME participants for a long time. Must have been 20 years ago I remember seeing a person of colour skiing in France and doing a double take, sort of taken back. And then of course questioning myself of why I was taken back. Even discussed it with a couple of ski buddies at the time.

It was/is clearly a cultural thing and certainly not an easy thing to address but no issue with it being discussed. A lot of people talk about the skiing industry struggling for participants so why not look at an audience with potential.
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NickYoung wrote:
.

And ghetto kneebrace??? Is that a saying???


No not really - but I'm sure I've lashed up things in the past with ducttape and referred to them as "ghetto" including for certain my knee when no other solution seemed to address the particular pain issues so well. And well I might be saying it in a self-deprecating way but it could well be offensive to some


http://youtube.com/v/s3tPfXGKrnE
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There are whole load of sports with low BAME participation and I am sure that there is an enlightening programme that could be made that explains what can be done to make Winter-sports, Watersports, Cycling and Autosport more attractive to BAME. I would be interested to watch it and understand the issues.

I suspect that the barriers are more about money, class and proximity to the mountains rather than ethnicity.

Anyway I thought it was poorly presented by Ski Sunday and the lad in Scotland appeared totally embarrassed to be caught up in the discussion.
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DavidYacht wrote:
I suspect that the barriers are more about money, class and proximity to the mountains rather than ethnicity.

I suppose we could just never discuss it. That would help, right?
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A quick Google shows that "ghetto-rig" was included in the Urban Dictionary in the early 2000's.
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The section did irritate me, as BAME myself, I can confirm I have never, ever experienced any stigma in or obstacles as a result of my ethnicity when it comes to outdoor pursuits. I ski, I've done 6 seasons, even now my season days are behind me we still spend min 5 weeks a year skiing. I'm also in to hiking and other outdoor activities.

It is easy to be outside the ethnic minorities telling ethnic minorities what the problem is, but as an ethnic minority growing up, my activities were always limited by money. I joined the brownies and guides and this gave me access to outdoors activities - camping, orienteering, and otherwise taking an interest in non-indoors things. A lot of inner city kids don't have access to brownies and guides, or if the group does exist, kids want to be cool and brownies and guides is not considered cool.

People say 'it's a cultural thing', like no further explanation is required, but that is quite the cop out. I have seen plenty of minorities skiing from a multitude of nationalities.

Some people don't want to go holiday in the snow and the cold, some people don't have the money to go skiing, some people don't want to / can't escape the social group they're in (who are you going to ski with if you're the only one of your group with the money or desire to go?). Plenty of what are called 'minorities' in this country are majority in other countries. Japan has massive pro sport cohort and rip it up at international comps. China has ski resorts, and Chinese people go skiing/spend time in the mountains. Just because a country is historically white does not mean mountain sports are not open to minorities, I find it a cheap shot to suggest otherwise.
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Quote:
I think Ed nailed it too, when he pointed out some of the barriers to entry were lack of experience.




The fact is, that for most people (whatever their colour) that have a minimal disposable income, the Snow Sports disciplines are not a cheap option to get into or follow. I suspect that Winter Sports holidays will not be offering the affordability(Post Pandemic) that we have enjoyed in previous decades which will put foreign Skiing/Snow Boarding holidays out of the reach of the Working Class Waged people (of all Colours) for decades to come. Good news for the future for the Scottish Ski Resorts and English Pennine Ski Clubs Memberships.
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