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Ehic and replacement

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I understand the comment about Carre Neige, because it always comes up whenever anyone asks about insurance for skiing and the responses can imply ('though they're not meant to) that there is some Alps-wide additional cover scheme. Rather than it being one particular example of the 'on demand' insurance available when you buy your ski pass.

So just to clarify for anyone not familiar with the issues: re the question of 'what cover should I get when skiing?' my answer is all of the following -

1. GHIC Card: Which is just a card giving the details of your state health cover, used in countries where the UK has a reciprocal arrangement for major costs. You have this cover whether you hold a card or not, but the card is useful in streamlining the admissions/treatment admin. Be aware that it only applies to the EU27 - if you're in, or have skied into Switzerland, it does not. So you need to be sure your travel insurer provides the same cover as GHIC gives you if you're not in an EU27 country, or are transiting via a non-EU27 country (like via GVA and its environs).

2. Travel Insurance: Which provides [1] type cover outside the EU27, and things not covered by [1] in the EU27 - the most important of which are transfer off the mountain (especially if it's by helicopter - think £100/minute flight time); repatriation where necessary; sending out someone to accompany you home; recuperation after discharge but before you're fit to travel home; and advice on the spot. The big deal with travel insurance is that it incentivises your insurer to get you treated properly, and get you home ASAP, which is probably what you want, and in is in your best interest generally.

3. 'Assurance' with the Ski Pass: This overlaps with some of [2] in terms of getting you off the mountain in winter. It obviates the need to pay the cost of the helicopter, ski patrol, paramedics and helicopter doctor and then claim this back from your travel insurer. To me, it seems worth the cost of a cup of coffee to obviate the hassle, but not everyone agrees. Carre Neige is the name given to this in some areas of France.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The problem with buying multiple insurances for the same risk is that you could potentially expose yourself to a fraud investigation. You could potentially claim on multiple policies for the same expense, and it is good practice to have only one insurance product therby speeding up your claim. Having said that, when you make a claim on which you have cover which is duplicated, you should claim and notify all insurers of the duplication so they can split it appropriately rather than paying you double.

Unfortunately, with generic rather than specific travel insurance you often have to duplicate cover in order to achieve the cover you actually want. This is very inefficient, only solveable by having a policy which is simple with add ons suitable to your risk.

(e.g. a winter sports travel insurance policy, with add ons rather than a travel insurance policy with winter sports add ons)
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Bigtipper wrote:
The problem with buying multiple insurances for the same risk is that you could potentially expose yourself to a fraud investigation. You could potentially claim on multiple policies for the same expense, and it is good practice to have only one insurance product therby speeding up your claim. Having said that, when you make a claim on which you have cover which is duplicated, you should claim and notify all insurers of the duplication so they can split it appropriately rather than paying you double.


Although that may well be the legal position I would argue that morally you should be able to claim on multiple policies for the same incident, since you have paid each insurance company the requisite premium to cover a payout in the eventuality of an incident covered by the policy. If I take out life insurance policies with two different companies I wouldn't expect one company to refuse to pay out on my death (or halve the amount paid out) because I had a policy with another company.
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@Alastair Pink, The difference is that hol insurance is meant to cover costs - not any form of compensation.

A life policy is, in effect, compensation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
MorningGory wrote:
@Alastair Pink, The difference is that hol insurance is meant to cover costs - not any form of compensation.

A life policy is, in effect, compensation.


So in the event that two insurance companies save on their costs of a claim by sharing the payout cost between them ( a situation which wouldn't arise if the person only had one insurance policy) do you think it appropriate for them to reimburse the customer a part of their premiums? wink Toofy Grin
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Quote:

There is something in the back of my mind that says the Carre/Carte Neige is only for those living in the EU - is there any truth in this?

I cannot find any mention of this on any Carre Neige web site, but did see it mentioned on another site called seelaplagne, which appears to be a marketting site. I have vague recollections of an American writing how Carré Neige repatriated him to the USA. Sadly I can no longer find it.

My research, however did come across Carré Neige Intégral which looks like a general purpose travel insurance product similar to that offered by the Austrian Alpine club, but the Carré Neige Intégral doesn't cover you outside of France. I may have to take the AAC insurance option in the future since my current insurer The BMC says it will not insure people my age!!!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Bigtipper wrote:
The problem with buying multiple insurances for the same risk is that you could potentially expose yourself to a fraud investigation.
If you take out 'on demand' cover with the ski pass, you would never be presented with the various invoices for the helicopter, paramedics, doctor and ski patrol. So you couldn't claim twice - you'd have no supporting documentation. The 'on demand' policies I've used carry the full burden of all the evacuation costs - there's no assumption that you have a travel insurer as well and no requirement to provide their details.

I agree with the tenor of your comments, however. A lot of people are carelessly optimistic about just what cover they actually have. I always get worried when a relative says "Oh, I get free travel cover with my bank account." or "Well, our policy only costs us £50 a year for the family." without being absolutely clear on just what is and isn't covered and what they need to do in the event of a prospective claim. Plus, even 'proper' travel insurance can still have hidden issues, as you say. And then there's the problem that even if you chat to a friendly and helpful insurance rep, it won't be them handling the claim, but an outsourced company targeted with minimising pay-outs and who behave very differently.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 8-03-21 13:46; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
The point is why are you having to purchase multiple insurance products to cover you to go skiing? The answer is because the products you are buying are not focused on what you need, rather on what sells. A product which covered you for what you need would not require you to purchase another product in order to cover you for what is not covered, or inadequately covered.

As for the "moral hazard" risk of duplicate insurance products, this is just one you have to bear until such a product exists. Certainly one sold at the right price would sweep the market clear of all unnecessary insurance products. (although it would be rather niche)
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Bigtipper wrote:
The point is why are you having to purchase multiple insurance products to cover you to go skiing?
I'm not. I'm purchasing one additional insurance product for convenience - to obviate the hassle and stress of having to provide insurance details from my stretcher at a foreign A+E Admissions; to remove the need for me to pay evacuation costs; and to avoid the administrative effort over the next six weeks of forwarding those invoices for repayment by the insurer, as each arrives.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 8-03-21 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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I think a lot of people find themselves with multiple travel insurances. We have them automatically with both bank account and home insurance. But neither cover certain pre-existing medical conditions, so we need a third policy that does. Ideally that policy would just be an "add-on" so as not to duplicate everything else, but that is almost impossible to find, so we probably have 3x cover for some aspects.
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@Alastair Pink, A fair point but that would be the customer's fault for overspending. If that was due to needing specific cover that required 2 policies with some overlap that's just hard luck Very Happy
Being able to specify a greater granularity of cover would probably end up costing more anyway, so unlikely to happen.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
From the Connexion

Repatriation insurance needed for Britons visiting France
UK nationals should now hold travel insurance for death and repatriation when visiting France as well as travelling with their Ehic

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/Repatriation-insurance-needed-for-non-EU-visitors-Britons-visiting-France
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Weathercam, have we not needed travel insurance to cover this previously anyway?

when my daughter damaged her knee skiing in france in feb 2016, both her and my wife were repatriated by plane back to the Uk, by our insurance provider, whilst me and my other daughter drove back as planned.

Did Ehic cover this?

if so, why the feck had I paid out on travel insurance for several European trips in previous years Puzzled Puzzled
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@terrygasson I think that @Weathercam was just being clear about the official statement of what already applied with the EHIC - namely that it did not cover repatriation. It should really be called something like 'UK National Health Certificate' - I expect a raft of sob stories in the summer as people with GHICs ask for crowdfunding to support their £75K foreign illness bills because "It said Global, so I thought it was, like, global."

So you were correct - you always needed full Travel Insurance to cover the cost of mountain heli-evac, recuperation once discharged, flights and accommodation for a nominated helper, transfers to airport, additional empty seating etc. And the GHIC isn't recognised in Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Norway or Iceland as the EHIC was, so your travel insurance needs to cover them now, as well.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm amazed that anyone thought the EHIC was some how a replacement, or an alternative to travel insurance!

Travel insurance has always been needed.

All an EHIC/GHIC does (and has ever done), is enable the holder to access primary, state health care, at the rate a local would.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@LaForet, I was commenting because the gist of the article in the link posted, is that the Ehic previously covered repatriation.
I didn’t see the point of the article.

I am sure there will, and have been, some Half wits who have thought these cards covered everything.

Going back to the subject of travel insurance vs carre neige. FWIW, when my daughter was injured we didn’t have to produce anything to the pistuers or ambulance company showing we had insurance. They just wrote down our home address (no proof needed) and we received an invoice from the Marie’s office of St Gervais a couple of weeks later. Which we just forwarded on to our insurance provider.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The point I was really making that at border control should you now not have insurance you could be turned away should the Douane be extra thorough.

I know many people that travel without insurance just relying on their EHIC.

And as an aside I had go to the Doctors on Friday to have my ears cleaned out, in the UK most Audiology places will do that vacuuming your ears out for circa £60-£80 in France you have to go to a Doctors.

So he used an old fashioned syringe pump type thing that wouldn't look out of place in a plumbers tool-kit and the total cost was €25 - I would have happily paid ten times that Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Weathercam, In the UK you get it done at the doctors. A nurse does it.
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https://www.moneysupermarket.com/travel-insurance/medical-costs-abroad/

"Our findings revealed that 42 per cent of Brits that haven’t taken out travel insurance stated that they did not because of it being too expensive, while just under a third put it down to being an unnecessary additional cost. This trend is particularly prevalent amongst younger travellers, with half suggesting that the location of their holiday would affect their decision to take out travel insurance.

Regionally speaking, Scotland has the worst offenders when it comes to taking out a policy without knowing what they are covered for, with 3 in 10 Scots admitting to this. Yorkshire and the North West followed close behind, with over a quarter of respondents from both regions stating the same."

"Whether covered by travel insurance or not, almost 30 per cent of Brits have required medical treatment while on holiday abroad. This poses a financial risk to those who don’t cover themselves, when you consider the costs of potential medical treatment. While this can vary from country to country, our research shows that the average amount paid for medical treatment comes in at £5,620".
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@holidayloverxx, Not any more! At least not here, has to be done privately.
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@holidayloverxx, I used to use a clinic in London and past couple of times an audiology clinic (sells hearing aids etc) in Worthing where there are quite a few Laughing

It's not something I'd bother going to a Doctors about as playing around in the Ocean a lot causes various issues. Normally I just use an Olive Oil based spray but stopped when I was out in the mountains then I think its the sweat drying up in my ears Crying or Very sad


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 8-03-21 16:53; edited 2 times in total
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@holidayloverxx, Yep, as @CaravanSkier said, no longer on the NHS.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
CaravanSkier wrote:
@holidayloverxx, Not any more! At least not here, has to be done privately.


Indeed up till about 2019 a nurse at my GP's surgery would do ear wax syringing (using an instrument that pulsed warm water into the ear canal). Then they told me that the service would no longer be offered.

A Government Minister confirmed that it is no longer routinely covered by the NHS: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54296737
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It’s available in my local surgery as well. The nurse carrying out my health screening a year or so ago, took a look to see if I needed it done or not.

Thankfully don’t need to pay, as the size of my ears they would need to subcontract out to the fire brigade Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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Oh well, looks like the fire brigade for me, if required now!!!
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Ah that explains why my sis had to pay to get hers done recently.

On a holiday in US in 2005 I became about 90% deaf in one ear and 50% in the other from being in the water a lot. Used some stuff from the pharmacy when I got back which cleared loads of gunk from my ears eventually.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Now that I've finally got into the french health system (it took over a year Crying or Very sad ) I can have a pukka EHIC card. If I ever get to travel that is Laughing
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
And there was me being accused of thread drift, never seen ear syringing mentioned here before Laughing First time for everything I suppose Smile

As far as I see it each of these products have their place.

Carre Neige : I only buy it on a Bash because it's a bit "belt and braces" and will help stop other Snowheads worrying about me too much should I need a rescue.

Travel Insurance : I make sure I buy a good travel insurance, reading all the small print and making sure it matches my needs. We've had to claim on our annual policies too many times to make this something I would skimp on. We have had a three mountain rescues, one each on blood wagon for my wife and I and a helicopter one for me as well. At no time were we asked for cash, credit card or insurance details before we were rescued. Just name and address where we were staying on one, email address for the most recent and nothing for the helicopter recovery as I was unconscious at the time. Add to that an air ambulance repatriation we're one of the reasons that travel insurance is expensive.

EHIC/GHIC : We get it and have had it ever since it started and the E111 form before but it has never really been of much use and always a PITA to get French medical facilities to accept it. On a couple of insurance claims in the past the Insurance company has waived the medical excess part of the claim because we did register the EHIC with the hospital
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

Our findings revealed that 42 per cent of Brits that haven’t taken out travel insurance stated that they did not because of it being too expensive, while just under a third put it down to being an unnecessary additional cost. This trend is particularly prevalent amongst younger travellers, with half suggesting that the location of their holiday would affect their decision to take out travel insurance.

Regionally speaking, Scotland has the worst offenders when it comes to taking out a policy without knowing what they are covered for, with 3 in 10 Scots admitting to this. Yorkshire and the North West followed close behind, with over a quarter of respondents from both regions stating the same."

"Whether covered by travel insurance or not, almost 30 per cent of Brits have required medical treatment while on holiday abroad. This poses a financial risk to those who don’t cover themselves, when you consider the costs of potential medical treatment. While this can vary from country to country, our research shows that the average amount paid for medical treatment comes in at £5,620".


You missed the bit that said that less than 10% travel without travel insurance. The figures look a bit weird to me (40% of men needed medical treetment abroad apparently) but the cannot be checked because they don't actually say where the data came from, how it was sampled etc. but then moneysupermarket is there to sell you insurance. I think it needs a bit of better presentation - for example of those 10% - where were they going, for how long and what were they doing?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@johnE, I didn't miss it; it wasn't the point I was bringing attention to.

I was referencing the reasons why people don't take insurance.

A 3rd say it's unnecessary - that's akin to believing the EHIC is sufficient.

You are of course right about how/why this data was generated, but if it's correct that 10% travel without insurance, it's 10% too many.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Alastair Pink wrote:
CaravanSkier wrote:
@holidayloverxx, Not any more! At least not here, has to be done privately.


Indeed up till about 2019 a nurse at my GP's surgery would do ear wax syringing (using an instrument that pulsed warm water into the ear canal). Then they told me that the service would no longer be offered.

A Government Minister confirmed that it is no longer routinely covered by the NHS: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54296737

Darn it! I last had mine done in about 2019
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

A 3rd say it's unnecessary - that's akin to believing the EHIC is sufficient.

Yes, 3% of the travelling public think its unnecessary
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@johnE, ?? "This is a concerning figure given that nearly 1 in 10 Brits do not take out any travel insurance ahead of a holiday".

That's 10% who don't take insurance, with a third of those believing it is unnecessary.
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I've had to have health insurance here for a couple of months waiting for my application to get into the french system to go through, it took over a year Crying or Very sad 250€ a month, it really makes you appreciate EHIC, holiday cover, etc. Even now I'm in top up insurance of 50€ upwards a month depending on cover is required Crying or Very sad

Our equivalent of carre neige is 45€ for the winter. No brainer as a top up as far as I'm concerned.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I previously took full mountaineering insurance for winter climbing trips, but for the last ten years I stuck with EHIC combined with the Austrian Alpine Association which includes basic cover for on piste, off piste and associated winter sports such as ice climbing. Anything else such as gear etc I cover myself.
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@Scarpa, I have friends who do just that. As far as I see it my home contents cover covers gear anyway. As for cacellation cover etc. I've never bothered with cancellation, missed flights etc. and when I did have to cancel because I had had a heart attack the hotels, airlines etc refunded me most of the money anyway.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I just received my new EHIC card now valid until the end of 2025. Applied back in the end of Dec and finally came through. I was very annoyed that as an EU citizen residing in the UK my EHIC wasn't valid but it was great to learn from this thread that I could extend. snowHead
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
It's the responsibility of the health provider in the country that you are resident, hence UK, hence no EHIC. On the contrary as a UK citizen resident in France I can have a french EHIC.
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@Claude B, Interesting to hear re France. Can I ask what is your residency status is in FR? My daughter is living in France till autumn but only effectively as a tourist on an Irish passport. If she decides to stay longer be good to get her the French EHIC if possible
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@skimottaret, Going through the official post Brexit residency route for Brits atm. Nearly complete. After an endless delay I've a social security number and hence France has responsibility for my health care.

She'd get a social security number if she were to work here. Otherwise as a tourist she won't. The post Brexit residency process only applies to Brits legally in place by 31st December 2020.
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