 Poster: A snowHead
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Currently have DIY trip to VT booked over Christmas, we moved everything from Easter, and two weeks ago I moved our flights from Geneva to Grenoble when Switzerland introduced quarantine, which they have since removed again. I can cancel/move bookings now, but I can't wait until Dec 1st or I risk losing thousands. We are happy to quarantine coming back but obviously not on the way out, and I'm not keen on testing on arrival. Where can we go please? I'd like ski in ski out but can be a very small area, I no longer care about ski school. Please don't reply if it is only to tell me that I shouldn't be travelling.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sweden at the moment....
We are booked to go to Austria
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No one knows - cancel if the money is important to you or roll the dice and take a chance. Not the year to be looking for the optimal answer unless you are less than a week out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If it were me and I could cancel without penalty at this stage and get a full refund, I'd cancel and bank the money for a potential last minute dash.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I'm not keen on testing on arrival
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Why? If you get tested a week or so before you go, and then keep yourselves to yourselves and take all available precautions before your departure, the chances of testing positive would be very low. If you are really keen to go you can't eliminate the risks entirely.
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| I can cancel/move bookings now, but I can't wait until Dec 1st or I risk losing thousands. |
Cancel and re-book at the last minute. I expect skiing to be possible by Christmas/NYE, but the only certainty is that everything will change - and probably change again - by then.
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That’s exactly what I’m planning for Feb Ht - roll over deposit and be ready to book and go if we can at any point in school holidays. As @clarky999 says, any advice now will likely all have changed again by the time you come to go anyway.
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Switzerland - go to Zurich and pick a small area like Flumserberg?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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+1 for Switzerland: currently you can go there from the UK without needing to quarantine. You'd need to supplement your Travel Insurance to get Covid cover. Take out the CHF 4-5 daily assurance and you'll also be covered for any on-piste accidents and heli-evac etc. Personally, I'd cancel your current booking, and self-drive and book Eurotunnel, but wait and see re accomodation. If it all changes (which is entirely probable) then worst case, you just shift your Eurotunnel booking.
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Thanks everyone. What would your prediction be for which European country won't impose restrictions on us arriving please? Sweden is obviously up there, but it's tricky to get anywhere except Stockholm. I like the look of Borovets in Bulgaria but can't find any cheap flights.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| Thanks everyone. What would your prediction be for which European country won't impose restrictions on us arriving please? Sweden is obviously up there, but it's tricky to get anywhere except Stockholm. I like the look of Borovets in Bulgaria but can't find any cheap flights. |
Last time I looked EasyJet flights to Sofia looked pretty reasonable?
Yes I found the same with Sweden when I started looking.
We are after Christmas week and there was limited availability into Salen airport. Last time we went we flew into Oslo and hired a car but last time I checked Norway insists on quarantine from Uk so not sure where you stand with transiting the country?
Normally there are EasyJet flights to Are but not this year it appears unless I am missing something.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| Thanks everyone. What would your prediction be for which European country won't impose restrictions on us arriving please? Sweden is obviously up there, but it's tricky to get anywhere except Stockholm. I like the look of Borovets in Bulgaria but can't find any cheap flights. |
You can go to Switzerland - no quarantine or negative test requirement at the moment.
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| telford_mike wrote: |
| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| Thanks everyone. What would your prediction be for which European country won't impose restrictions on us arriving please? Sweden is obviously up there, but it's tricky to get anywhere except Stockholm. I like the look of Borovets in Bulgaria but can't find any cheap flights. |
You can go to Switzerland - no quarantine or negative test requirement at the moment. |
Same with Austria (unless you've been in a couple of places in the North East of England), but rules for both places will almost 100% change before Christmas. Those changes will be precisely in order to enable ski travel at Christmas, but making concrete plans now for travel anywhere in 2 months time is a recipe for disappointment.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
and I'm not keen on testing on arrival
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Why is that?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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(Re)Booked for Sweden (from Switzerland)- but all is cancelable, or credit note. Agree that its not easy to get up to the resorts, but we picked Hemavan as it has good nursery slopes, and the airport has direct flights from Stockholm. As it is, we'll have an adventure with the overnight sleeper train to Umea and a coach to resort, then flights back (its 1000km from Stockholm).
But, as others have pointed out - there's the very real risk of it all not happening. Glass half full though 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I agree I'm not keen on testing on arrival somewhere. If you do test positive or maybe a false positive, depending on the country you could be forced to quarantine somewhere there that's far from ideal for 2 weeks. If you test positive before you go , you can cancel and just stay at home.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Checkflaps, the night train is a great way to get to the slopes. Given the trajectory here though, i doubt you'll get to try it out anytime soon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Slovakia
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| mgrolf wrote: |
| @Checkflaps, the night train is a great way to get to the slopes. Given the trajectory here though, i doubt you'll get to try it out anytime soon. |
I'm not 'that' optimistic, as a few weeks back our annual trip to Gothenburg for Underwater Rugby got cancelled, and my other half is going to struggle to visit family in Scania as planned this month. Best we can all do, is play it by ear and deal with what happens in the week running up to any trip - be that Sweden or anywhere else in Europe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Change your flights back to Geneva and cancel your accommodation. If France opens back up in Dec you can stick with your existing VT plan. If they don’t you have plenty of Swiss or Italian resorts within easy reach of Geneva. Switzerland has taken a different approach to quarantine rules than France so this way you are hedging your bets. I doubt you’ll have any problem booking late DIY accommodation given the current situation
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Should I fly to Geneva or Zurich? I like the look of Slovakia but I can't use avios points to fly there.
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I have flights to both Grenoble and Geneva on the 19th, and coming back from Lyon on the 31st, though imagine I could change that to Geneva. I have 4 days left to cancel my accommodation, but I have checked with them and I will get a refund if I can't get to the resort due to covid. I was planning to hope for the best but the rumours of non French residents not being allowed in is a worry, and the hospitals being so overwhelmed that they are shipping patients elsewhere makes me concerned they won't be able to open the resorts because the hospitals just can't cope with any accidents. I have been checking out Switzerland but hubby isn't keen as it's so expensive. Italy looks to be in a similar situation as France, which leaves Austria. I hate the unknown, part of me would like to be told I couldn't go. Any advice or suggestions?
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| I hate the unknown, part of me would like to be told I couldn't go. Any advice or suggestions? |
You can't go.
Happy to help 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| I have 4 days left to cancel my accommodation, but I have checked with them and I will get a refund if I can't get to the resort due to covid. |
You may want to clarify exactly what that means.
There are lots of different scenario's.
If it basically means you can cancel up to day of travel for any reason then you are good. If it means something else... it sounds like you want to be sure.
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That made me chuckle @red27
Thanks @Layne
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| I'm not keen on testing on arrival. |
That's an extremely selfish attitude.
If you don't have covid, then it's a little bit of inconvenience when you arrive, and you get the benefit of a lower risk of catching covid while you're out there (because other people have also been tested on arrival).
If you do have covid, then you are saying you'd rather be mixing with people in a ski resort, spreading it to other people and potentially killing them, rather than the inconvenience of a couple of weeks of quarantine. Testing positive before you have symptoms also means you can take precautions for your own health - get treatment early if you're having difficulty breathing for example, rather than just putting it down to thin mountain air.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thelem wrote: |
| WishIWasFitter wrote: |
| I'm not keen on testing on arrival. |
That's an extremely selfish attitude.
If you don't have covid, then it's a little bit of inconvenience when you arrive, and you get the benefit of a lower risk of catching covid while you're out there (because other people have also been tested on arrival).
If you do have covid, then you are saying you'd rather be mixing with people in a ski resort, spreading it to other people and potentially killing them, rather than the inconvenience of a couple of weeks of quarantine. Testing positive before you have symptoms also means you can take precautions for your own health - get treatment early if you're having difficulty breathing for example, rather than just putting it down to thin mountain air. |
Very well said
Only way to arguably take it a step further is test prior to departure to not even board the airplane and risk infecting others there
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As has been pointed out quite a few times on this thread and other more general ones, nobody has any idea at this point. I think you'd be taking a real risk not cancelling. My booking is for Feb and I am expecting to be asked for the balance in Dec and at this point I wouldn't be paying it. For a start you have no idea if you get asked to isolate this end before you go (this is far more likely if you work in certain jobs or have kids in school I grant you). Plus who knows if lockdowns will be extended or foreigners welcomed - the French reports I've read (linked by more knowledgeable SH than me elsewhere on this board) have all talked about the French hoping for but not guaranteeing a "French family Christmas". That doesn't sound too welcoming to me... there is no point making predictions as they are all quite likely to be wrong... keep your money and then jump at the last minute if the circumstances are right.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Why is there always someone who has to be rude. I'm happy to take a test before leaving but I don't want to on arrival, that seems sensible not selfish. Thank you to all those who have been helpful.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Please explain why I am wrong and I will apologise. If I was offered a test in any situation I'd be happy to take it because I wouldn't want to be unwittingly spreading covid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Simply because these tests can get false positive, one could stuck waiting for re-tests etc
Or in worst case scenario, if one get true positive on arrival, then everything is screwed, and even after few weeks, when all good, re-tests still could get positive and one stuck in hotel isolation for months.
So it good idea to do the test before the travel if allowed/possible, rather than on arrival, as testing on arrival brings more risks and uncertainty.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A false positive I accept would be a big inconvenience for no benefit. The trial they are doing in Liverpool for lateral flow tests is reported to be 99.68% accurate for positive results [1] - i.e. about 1 in 300 people who get a positive result don't actually have covid. I can't find a similar reference for the PCR tests, but it seems to be at least as accurate as the lateral flow tests.
1 in 300 is not negligible, but it's still a pretty low rate, and much lower than the chance of either government or the airline cancelling your holiday.
If the test shows a true positive on arrival then you were already screwed. The test just means you're able to act responsibly.
Yes, a test on departure is even better and stops you infecting people during your journey.
[1] https://fullfact.org/health/lateral-flow-test/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The PCR is not as straight forward. The test "amplifies" DNA in cycles. If you run enough cycles you will get a match no matter what you test for - i.e. you can test a banana for covid and you will still get a positive if you run it long enough. There is no universal law how many cycles you have to do in a covid test and it's pretty much up to the lab to decide. While the recommended is about 30, many labs would do 35 or 40, and get much more positives (including false positives) than labs doing 30 cycles.
And if that is not enough of a problem - it gets worse. The PCR test does not distinguish if the virus in you is alive or dead, any viral fragment can give a positive test. So you can be weeks after the point where you are no longer infectious and you are actually completely healed, and still give a positive.
PCR tests are good for diseases that are actually well hidden into your organism and difficult to diagnose with other methods.
So it's quite sensible to avoid any PCR test away from your home!
The antigen tests are much better and some countries are switching to them now – the timeframe when they test positive coincides much more with the timeframe you are actually infectious for others.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boyanr, having done a lot of PCR testing myself (many many years ago when I was a student in molecular biology and the technology was much less sophisticated), I've been happy to get PCR viral test results for myself and for my family. Your concerns are theoretically valid, but in practice these are very well known limitations of the technique.
Yes, PCR amplifies DNA and you can run so many cycles that you get false positives. You can also run so few cycles that you get false negatives. PCR is also sensitive to local variables like sample quality, reagent quality, etc so choosing an optimal number of cycles is a judgement call best made by local experts. Labs will differ in that judgement, and rightly so. All labs will be able to provide data on projected false positive and false negative rates of testing in their facilities, so clinicians will know what to expect from a given lab.
Interpreting results in light of all of these factors requires expertise and clinical judgement. So if you trust your doctor, then you should trust the testing method they recommend. If you don't trust your doctor, it doesn't matter what testing method they recommend. As a patient you are very well qualified to decide whether you trust a person, but not very well qualified to decide whether you trust a clinical technique.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thing is, with covid you are not given the chance to pick your doctor, trust him or not, etc. You are tested and diagnosed and nobody asks you for your opinion. And there are quite a few real-world problems with the PCRs in this context
- the media has already figured out that different labs here in Bulgaria do between 30 and 40 cycles, which is a massive difference, and I've read similar things for other countries as well. So you do get a huge variety of results and credibility from lab to lab...
- you reminded me of the refrigeration problem... A positive sample can quickly become negative in a matter of hours, if not kept at 5 degrees or lower
- there is no clinical judgement and doctor evaluation in covid, it's mass testing 24/7, every lab worker would do hundreds of tests per day, there is rarely any personal contact between patient and doctor etc. Pretty much all countries take a positive PCR as proven diagnosis and quarantine you, while normally (as is the case with other diseases usually) , a lab result IS NOT a diagnosis and the doctor would institute one only when specific symptoms are present.
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I currently have 3 weeks enforced leave from the 12th of December so very much hoping that somewhere is possible and book last minute.
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I've cancelled our accomadation at VT but keeping flights so will wait and see what opens, also looking at Bulgaria
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In answer to OP, try getting a crystal ball.
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| thelem wrote: |
Yes, a test on departure is even better and stops you infecting people during your journey.
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that was the OP's point, you've unwittingly answered your own question without seemingly realising it, nor apologising for being rude
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FAQ
