I watch ski racing only occasionally - Olympics, WC Highlights on, eg. ski Sunday - so I’m not very knowledgeable of ski racing or race technique. Some questions, if you would be so kind....
On tonight’s Ski Sunday, the lovely Chemmy was eulogising on (IIRC) Lara Gut’s chances of winning the downhill and mentioned the ‘drift & punch’ technique which Gut employs and which (she said) is the fastest way down the hill. She answered her own question, “why don’t all the women do it?” by saying that ‘it takes a really high skill level’ which implies the other women can’t do it. Do you think that’s right? Or is it more likely that, unlike the men, the women are not generally heavy enough for acceleration due to gravity to overcome the loss of speed on approach to the gates?
The speedtrap on the women’s downhill course showed them doing in excess of 130kph; the men (albeit on a different course) rarely seemed to exceed 110kph. Is that usual?
The first two men out of the start gate took the first two places on the Downhill podium. Does that suggest that, despite the weather appearing to be fairly consistent, the conditions had a lot to do with the result of the race?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Red Leon wrote:
On tonight’s Ski Sunday, the lovely Chemmy was eulogising on (IIRC) Lara Gut’s chances of winning the downhill and mentioned the ‘drift & punch’ technique which Gut employs and which (she said) is the fastest way down the hill. She answered her own question, “why don’t all the women do it?” by saying that ‘it takes a really high skill level’ which implies the other women can’t do it.
I saw that. Interesting analysis - basically a controlled skid to take slightly tighter line.
Remember the margins in ski racing are tiny. All the girls can carve the course clean. So how do you get that little extra edge required to win a race? Punch & drift a good example of something unconventional to achieve small advantage.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There is a video on Youtube of racers warming up for the Levi WC races this winter. None of them are skiing arc-to-arc, they are practicing the kind of controlled skidding that they will need to do to get around the expected courses.
@Red Leon, drift & punch - I’d say drift & grab: letting the skis slide/surf, align and grab/set the edge, it’s a beauty to behold and more practical than arc-to-arc’ing and also more familiar to most of us. Linked pure carving turns are tough to churn out especially if you want to hit some critical turn points. I find arc-to-arc facile until you put some gates in the mix
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I too was intrigued by Chemmy's piece. After her intro we saw the Womens' DH and I didn't see anyone (inc Lara G-B) drift and punch turns. They all arced them as far as I could see. However, a lot of the men did in their DH on a couple of the tighter turns (it seemed like a tighter turn course). My take is that drift and punch can't be as fast as arc to arc unless the turn is too tight to really arc it on the racing line at full tilt. Then it seems better to drift in and punch out like we often see in GS. I am not a racer though so stand to be corrected....
There is no limit on weight of equipment or its distribution but there are caveats relating to the use and approval of items which may increase risk to the user and/or new equipment - which must be submitted to FIS for evaluation prior to approval.
I can't see any reason why a racer would want to train with a different, heavier setup to that with which they compete as it would provide different feedback to their race setup. They would be able to increase strength with gym work in the off season.
I think that the drift and punch technique allows racers to set up for a turn by getting their skis pointing in the right direction without committing to their edges until the right moment. I would think that it might be used to mitigate against certain conditions in a turn and improve the outcome for the skier versus the chance of coming unstuck trying to carve the turn fully, eg:
1. Variations in the camber of the turn leading the racer to hold off committing to the edge until the risk of washing-out or over compressing has passed.
2. Ruts and bumps in the surface - As the course deteriorates it might be better to set up for the turn but not fully commit until the snow is smoother.
3. The racer might not have the skill to carve around a particular turn. This is a lower risk strategy to give them the best opportunity to finish or not crash.
I'm sure that there are more examples but it will be employed for specific conditions/circumstances.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks all for the responses. I think we've covered the Drift & Punch technique fairly well...
Red Leon wrote:
On tonight’s Ski Sunday, the lovely Chemmy was eulogising on (IIRC) Lara Gut’s chances of winning the downhill and mentioned the ‘drift & punch’ technique which Gut employs and which (she said) is the fastest way down the hill. She answered her own question, “why don’t all the women do it?” by saying that ‘it takes a really high skill level’ which implies the other women can’t do it. Do you think that’s right? Or is it more likely that, unlike the men, the women are not generally heavy enough for acceleration due to gravity to overcome the loss of speed on approach to the gates?
even if nobody has actually answered my question of whether Cheemy was right to imply the women don't generally use it because they lack the skill...
So, how about one of my other questions...
Red Leon wrote:
The first two men out of the start gate took the first two places on the Downhill podium. Does that suggest that, despite the weather appearing to be fairly consistent, the conditions had a lot to do with the result of the race?
Any thoughts?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
basically a controlled skid to take slightly tighter line.
I thought that was called a 'Spivot'?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
marodo2712 wrote:
Quote:
basically a controlled skid to take slightly tighter line.
I thought that was called a 'Spivot'?
I think it's called a Stivot (Steered pivot)....then there's also a Schmeer.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
So drift and punch: Is this similar to a smear turn? It's something that I have tried to add in to my arsenal of what turn am I going to do next, recommended to me as one to do on icy/solid pack death traps?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I described a video above that may help, it is slalom not speed but the racers are not doing stivot turns. Will also re-watch the recent footage of L G-B.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@rjs, thanks, so
http://youtube.com/v/A-0FPlC60yg?t=119
is that the sort of turn this is referring to? Where in initial turn the skier doesn't try and grip until the skis are in the fall line, then there is a grab of the edges and the skis energise and turn which is then fed into the next turn.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
My understanding is that Chemmy referring to the drift and punch was sliding into the turn to scrub some velocity and re position the skis and the punch part is in relation to basically entering into a tuck to then accelerate towards the next gate, which is really only possible on the steeper sections where speed is in excess or can be regenerated very quickly - with cleaner carves being used on the flatter sections where the speed needs to be kept and built from turn to turn
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@extremerob, thanks that makes an interesting read.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The whole subject has brought a smile to my face. So much for my powers of observation, I thought Lara was "carving" cleaner and more accurately than the rest of the ladies.
Every day's a school day......
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Isn't drift and punch something Ted Legity effectively adopted/mastered when the rules were changed for the GS? Something along the lines of the ski radius being increased so it wasn't possible to carve all the turns?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 15-02-21 19:43; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pieman666 wrote:
So drift and punch: Is this similar to a smear turn? It's something that I have tried to add in to my arsenal of what turn am I going to do next, recommended to me as one to do on icy/solid pack death traps?
Pretty much unavoidable in those conditions, I would have thought
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pieman666 wrote:
@rjs, thanks, so is that the sort of turn this is referring to? Where in initial turn the skier doesn't try and grip until the skis are in the fall line, then there is a grab of the edges and the skis energise and turn which is then fed into the next turn.
I downloaded L G-B's winning SG run as an MP4 then freeze-framed it through, she is doing much the same as in the slalom warmup video for about half the gates and arc-to-arc carving the rest. It is different to a stivot, that I think she did too often in GS in the past.
@DB, I think you are right. Ligetty pioneered this when they changed the GS skis so they would reduce the number of knee injuries iirc. After massively criticising the change he came off his first tests and declared, to his surprise, that the new skis were faster!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Steilhang wrote:
@DB, I think you are right. Ligetty pioneered this when they changed the GS skis so they would reduce the number of knee injuries iirc. After massively criticising the change he came off his first tests and declared, to his surprise, that the new skis were faster!
He was extremely vocal about the change in 2011 when they announced the move from 27m to 35m radius, though he managed to master the new radius, his view was a valid one and the FIS reduced the ski radius to 30m for the 2017 season
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
