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Cairngorm Funicular to be Repaired

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes, and if they had just replaced the old chairlift with something a bit newer there would have been no need for any movement restrictions or indeed any need to replace the Ptarmigan cafe.
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Taxpayer financial support to troubled Cairngorm funicular operator trebles

Quote:
Some £2m in public funds has been ploughed into Cairngorm Mountain (Scotland) which manages the troubled Cairngorm funicular and ski centre as Covid wiped out its winter season. The Scottish government is already pumping in £16m towards the cost of fixing the railway which connects a base station with a restaurant and a ski area 1,097m (3,599ft) up Cairn Gorm mountain near Aviemore But it has also had to pay a penalty of £85,989 to the EU over flawed tendering procedures.

The latest publicly funded grants that have helped Cairngorm Mountain (Scotland) break even in the year to March 31, 2021 comes after it ploughed in £626,541 the year before. [End Quote]

My comment, it would be nice if the other Scottish ski resorts were to receive even a fraction of the £millions of taxpayer money splurged on Cairngorm, think how their lift infrastructure could be improved! Not exactly equitable treatment is it?
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I think the budget for the Gondola and most of the first phase of ski lifts at Nevis Range was only about £10m by 1989.
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More delay and no doubt more public money required to shore things up:

https://www.inthesnow.com/cairngorm-funicular-re-opening-delayed-to-22-23-season/

Quote:
The re-opening of the funicular railway at Cairngorm Mountain has been delayed until late 2022 meaning the ski centre above Aviemore in the Scottish Highlands will remain without its main lift for a fourth successive ski season.


If a further £2m was needed to make up for this wiped-out season then probably more of the same needed.
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Yes, saw the article on FB earlier on today. Once again raises "construction" questions, regarding the programme of works. The original projection was for a completion and "operational" for Feb/March of next year. On several occasions I felt this was optimistic on the basis that weather on Cairngorm isn't helpful to construction works.
I can only assume that the problems have opened up and increased the scale of works significantly.
The ski-tourers are going to have it all to themselves for another season
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Not a shock or surprise, the shambles at Cairngorm just continues. Evil or Very Mad The people I feel deeply sorry for are the businesses in Aviemore and the surrounding area who are being adversely impacted by HIE's shocking mismanagement. At least I did my bit to help by having a summer staycation holiday in Aviemore back at the end of May.
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Enough is absolutely enough. They’ve made sufficient mess so far that progressing to demolition of the funicular will not further adversely impact the mountain.

Ultimately the viaduct will have to come down one day, so bite the bullet and do the final ground reinstatement next summer.

For CairnGorm to have a future HIE must have no part in determining it and the clowns that are CML need to be far removed also!
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Someone should make a documentary. Sad

Meanwhile much more positive news over at Glencoe. The new base restaurant is on track and so is the new chairlift apparently Cool
https://www.facebook.com/100003537938219/posts/3966300356831190/?d=n


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 25-08-21 21:58; edited 1 time in total
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Alastair Pink wrote:
Not a shock or surprise, the shambles at Cairngorm just continues. Evil or Very Mad The people I feel deeply sorry for are the businesses in Aviemore and the surrounding area who are being adversely impacted by HIE's shocking mismanagement. At least I did my bit to help by having a summer staycation holiday in Aviemore back at the end of May.


I was there in July, took a drive up the the car park and had a wee laugh to myself at the proposed completion date - which was clearly never happening in a month of Sundays.

Basically, Balfour Beattie (I think) have now just set themselves up with a gazillion portacabins and are settled in for the long haul, suckling at whatever cash teat is available.

What that means for the ultimate viability of the ski area is anyones guess. They must have lost a hell of a lot of Cairngorm fans who have decided that Shee / Coe / Nevis / Lecht can accomodate their needs quite easily without this shitshow.
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GreenDay wrote:
They must have lost a hell of a lot of Cairngorm fans who have decided that Shee / Coe / Nevis / Lecht can accomodate their needs quite easily without this shitshow.


Yes, and I think people have greater respect for private companies who spend their own money, guarantee their own loans, take risks, and not be dependent on and wasteful of vast swathes of public money. They deserve support.

It's as if Cairngorm has been nationalised à la 1960s and is no longer subject to the same free market forces that apply to all the rest. Like lots of public works, the over-spend and the delay was predictable. Why a whole year delay? To me that's a bit too inaccurate and it means they really don't know.

News on the Cairngorm Money Pit finances here: http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2021/08/21/cairngorm-mountain-scotland-ltds-accounts-and-the-corrupt-set-up-at-cairn-gorm/
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Pruman wrote:
Why a whole year delay? To me that's a bit too inaccurate and it means they really don't know.


That’s about it, the proposed repairs were a best guess by COWI on the limited information HIE provided - conveniently most original drawings and relevant information was ‘lost’.

They probably had a good idea it was completely ****ed, but chose to start repairing it to get to the point where they can say we’ve spent millions we need to see it through now.

When you consider this saga always remember the Funicular was built by Morrison’s Construction, the chairmen and CEO at the time was Sir Fraser Morrison, and yes it was the one and the same Sir Fraser Morrison at the helm of HIE. Skullie
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Quote:

Morrison’s Construction, the chairmen and CEO at the time was Sir Fraser Morrison, and yes it was the one and the same Sir Fraser Morrison at the helm of HIE.

A private company cockup with the failed design compounded by a private company mismanagement of the resource (Natural Retreats) paid for by public funding; Scottish Office, Scottish Government and the EU.
The main failure was setting the wrong objective and then choosing a funicular solution in the first place. Sad


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 27-08-21 11:16; edited 1 time in total
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Pruman wrote:
GreenDay wrote:
They must have lost a hell of a lot of Cairngorm fans who have decided that Shee / Coe / Nevis / Lecht can accomodate their needs quite easily without this shitshow.


Yes, and I think people have greater respect for private companies who spend their own money, guarantee their own loans, take risks, and not be dependent on and wasteful of vast swathes of public money. They deserve support.

It's as if Cairngorm has been nationalised à la 1960s and is no longer subject to the same free market forces that apply to all the rest. Like lots of public works, the over-spend and the delay was predictable. Why a whole year delay? To me that's a bit too inaccurate and it means they really don't know.

News on the Cairngorm Money Pit finances here: http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2021/08/21/cairngorm-mountain-scotland-ltds-accounts-and-the-corrupt-set-up-at-cairn-gorm/


Apparently there is a UK body called the Competition and Markets Authority. The link states that amongst its responsibilities is "we investigate entire markets if we think there are competition or consumer problems" and "we take action against businesses and individuals that take part in cartels or anti-competitive behaviour (my italics)"

I would have thought that one publicly owned ski area business (Cairngorm) receiving £millions in taxpayer funding including ongoing operational subsidies in contrast to the other privately owned ski areas was prima facie a competition problem and the Cairngorm business is behaving in an anti-competitive manner. Perhaps a referral to the CMA might be in order...... Toofy Grin
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You know it makes sense.
Peter S wrote:

A private company cockup with the failed design compounded by a private company mismanagement of the resource (Natural Retreats) paid for by public funding; Scottish Office, Scottish Government and the EU.
The main failure was setting the wrong objective and then choosing a funicular solution in the first place. Sad


The private ‘company cockup’ was a modification to the design to replace steel with concrete to save Morrison’s money on construction, signed off by a senior individual at HIE. Sources tell me the same individual signed off the gas axing of the Ciste Chairs to ensure no alternative non surface uplift was existent, thus allowing HiE to push that it was imperative the funicular was fixed.

For HIE the important thing is ensuring the funicular outlasts those who don’t want the history of the project revisited.
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^ that exactly : HIE want the funicular to "succeed" at cost of all else (including the ski area itself)
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It is astonishing that you can spend , what £40m(?) over 20 years and end up with half the uplift capacity you started with and no tangible improvement to the skiing facilities Shocked
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Quote:

Sources tell me the same individual signed off the gas axing of the Ciste Chairs to ensure no alternative non surface uplift was existent, thus allowing HiE to push that it was imperative the funicular was fixed.

That would be scandalous Evil or Very Mad
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Peter S wrote:
It is astonishing that you can spend , what £40m(?) over 20 years and end up with half the uplift capacity you started with and no tangible improvement to the skiing facilities Shocked


Yep, it takes incompetence on an epic scale to achieve such a dismal result. rolling eyes
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Officials considered Cairngorm mountain resort closure as repairs bill soars

So HIE's total responsibility for the funicular fiasco has resulted in what was once Scotland's premier ski area seriously being considered for closure of all skiing activities! Evil or Very Mad
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Alastair Pink wrote:
Officials considered Cairngorm mountain resort closure as repairs bill soars

So HIE's total responsibility for the funicular fiasco has resulted in what was once Scotland's premier ski area seriously being considered for closure of all skiing activities! Evil or Very Mad


Not terribly surprising, but a real shame nonetheless.

Aviemore is now probably better known as a cycling, hiking, camping, destination rather than for the skiing.
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And yet Scotland trusts the HIE to develop a satellite launch hub?
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Does anyone know if they have ever thought about making this a dry slop resort? obviously you still ski the snow when it is there but it does give a lot more open days & if the uplifts are there already.

Just a blue sky question
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Alastair Pink wrote:
Officials considered Cairngorm mountain resort closure as repairs bill soars
So HIE's total responsibility for the funicular fiasco has resulted in what was once Scotland's premier ski area seriously being considered for closure of all skiing activities! Evil or Very Mad


Great piece of journalism : a dying art.
Even once finally repaired (winter 2024 I am told) the funicular is doomed to long term financial failure.
Doesn't matter who is in charge.
The VMP means you can't leave top station for 8 months of the year.
By design it can never attract repeat custom from bikers, hikers or tourists...
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Jonny996 wrote:
Does anyone know if they have ever thought about making this a dry slop resort? obviously you still ski the snow when it is there but it does give a lot more open days & if the uplifts are there already.
Just a blue sky question


Lack of snow not the real problem...
I was up Cairngorm at end of April and the top basin was still fully complete (as it has been since mid December).
Would have been great for kids - but without a train there is no access.

Though why would you cover a munro in plastic when dry slopes are better suited next to centres of population ?

ster wrote:
And yet Scotland trusts the HIE to develop a satellite launch hub?


... the Scottish government voted to disband HIE but were, sadly, blocked by opposition parties who voted to retain an independent board in 2017

Vote on HIE will be taken into account, says Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38677356


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 4-05-22 8:16; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap wrote:

ster wrote:
And yet Scotland trusts the HIE to develop a satellite launch hub?


... the Scottish government voted to disband HIE but were, sadly, blocked by opposition parties who voted to retain an independent board in 2017

Vote on HIE will be taken into account, says Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.com/.../uk-scotland-highlands-islands...


Linky no worky, perhaps you meant this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38652032

And you can't remove any Scot Govt responsibility, as much as you may like to, as stated here

"Economy secretary Keith Brown said HIE would "continue to be locally based, managed and directed" under his plans."

Also as clearly stated here

https://www.hie.co.uk/media/5489/scottishplusgovernment_hieplusframeworkplusagreement.pdf

IE’S PURPOSE, FUNCTION AND POWERS
3. HIE’s primary purpose, as agreed by Scottish Ministers, is to focus its activities on the
achievement of the SG’s purpose of creating a more successful country with opportunities for
all of Scotland to flourish through increasing sustainable economic growth. Ministers expect
HIE to do this by aligning its vision, purpose and priorities with the SG’s published
Programme for Government (PfG), Scotland’s Economic Strategy (SES) and National
Performance Framework (NPF).

Ministerial responsibilities
14. Scottish Ministers are ultimately accountable to the Scottish Parliament for the
activities of HIE and its use of resources. They are not, however, responsible for day to day
operational matters.
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Link edited and fixed :

Vote on HIE will be taken into account, says Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38677356
The Scottish government will reflect carefully on calls to allow Highlands and Islands Enterprise its own board, Nicola Sturgeon has said

ster wrote:

And you can't remove any Scot Govt responsibility, as much as you may like to, as stated here


I can simply point out the facts.

In 2017 the Scottish government tried to abolish HIE.
However the opposition parties (Lab, Con, Lib Dem) collectively argued this was Edinburgh centralisation and combined forces with a vote to ensure HIE maintained a fully independent board.
A full public inquiry into the funicular fiasco is now essential, as sadly HIE seem to remain unaccountable for their actions.
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Nice try, Scotland (as shown by a majority in parliament) voted to ask the SG to not replace the HIE with its a new management body to oversee all of Scotland's enterprise and skills agencies. Even Blackford said that while he "fully endorsed" the establishment of one board, he also wanted HIE to have a "management or advisory board" which would "reflect the priorities" of the Highlands and islands area. But if the SNP SG had the courage of its convictions it still could have done it? But it let it ride

As to accountability, the HIE is accountable to SG, isnt it? And if its been let run riot then its down to the SG?

https://www.hie.co.uk/about-us/our-board/

The HIE Board normally meet at least six times a year and has overall responsibility for ensuring that we fulfil our statutory duties and meet the aims and objectives set out by the Scottish Government in Scotland's Economic Strategy and the national Programme for Government.

The Board has specific responsibility for approving our strategy and operating plan, and ensuring that the Scottish Government has thorough arrangements for appraising, monitoring and evaluating our targets.

https://aspenpeople.co.uk/HIE/

Per the Chairman

"As the Scottish Government’s economic development agency, we tackle challenges and create opportunities to benefit the region’s people, businesses and communities, both now and in the future."
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ster wrote:
But if the SNP SG had the courage of its convictions it still could have done it? But it let it ride


^ Nice hyperbole : You willfully confuse "Scottish Government" with a vote by Highland MSPs in the Holyrood parliament" (which includes opposition MSPs).
The facts remain. In 2017 the Scottish government (SNP) tried to abolish HIE and replace it with centralised accountable body.
Opposition parties blocked that from happening as they wished HIE to maintain an independent board not appointed by central government

"Accusations fly after HIE board vote in Holyrood"
Nationalist politicians in the north have been accused of betraying their constituents after voting against protecting the board of Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE). Opposition parties united against the SNP to vote against plans to replace the board with an overarching national body. The victory at Holyrood on Wednesday was narrow, with just one deciding vote, after all of the SNP MSPs in the Highlands stuck with their party and voted against the motion by Highlands and Islands Conservative MSP Donald Cameron.
https://www.strathspey-herald.co.uk/news/accusations-fly-after-hie-board-vote-in-holyrood-145037/

And here is how the Highland MSPs voted in 2017.

For the motion to retain the board of HIE:
Donald Cameron, Highlands and Islands Conservative
Rhoda Grant, Highlands and Islands Labour
Edward Mountain, Highlands and Islands Conservative
Douglas Ross, Highlands and Islands Conservative
David Stewart, Highlands and Islands Labour

Against the motion to retain the board of HIE:
Fergus Ewing, Inverness and Nairn, SNP
Kate Forbes, Skye Lochaber and Badenoch, SNP
Gail Ross, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross, SNP
Maree Todd, Highlands and Islands, SNP
John Finnie, Highlands and Islands Green MSP was ill and unable to attend the debate,

FWIW : The argument at the time was that Scottish government taking direct control of HIE amounted to Edinburgh centralisation.
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@Haggis_Trap, you can say all you like re what the SNP SG wanted to do about HIE, then did or didn't do, ultimately the HIE is still responsible to the SG, something on which you are silent. Is the HIE responsible to the SG or not?
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ster wrote:
Is the HIE responsible to the SG or not?


HIE (economic development agency for north of Scotland) is report-able to the Scottish government, hence my desire for a full parliamentary inquiry into the fiasco.
However, the fact remains, that the HIE board remains appointed independent of the Scottish government itself

Keith Brown statement expected on HIE board's future
"The process sparked a political row with opposition parties concerned HIE's board could lose its independence or be wound up altogether."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-39430177
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
ster wrote:
Is the HIE responsible to the SG or not?


HIE (economic development agency for north of Scotland) is report-able to the Scottish government, hence my desire for a full parliamentary inquiry into the fiasco.
However, the fact remains, that the HIE board remains appointed independent of the Scottish government itself

Keith Brown statement expected on HIE board's future
"The process sparked a political row with opposition parties concerned HIE's board could lose its independence or be wound up altogether."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-39430177


Very interesting as the article also says, which as you quote it you dont dispute it I assume (and as I pointed out earlier)

In his response, Mr Brown [SG Economy Secretary] said HIE would "continue to be locally based, managed and directed" under his plans.

QED
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ster wrote:

In his response, Mr Brown [SG Economy Secretary] said HIE would "continue to be locally based, managed and directed" under his plans


...as alternative to the SNP / Scottish government proposal (2017) which was to abolish HIE and centralise its independent board.
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@Haggis_Trap, which they could have but didnt do.

And that does not matter as it’s clearly directed by SG.
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ster wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, which they could have but didnt do.
And that does not matter as it’s clearly directed by SG.


Jezuz wept..
... had the Scottish government simply ignored a 2017 vote by Scottish parliament (... to retain an HIE board independent of government) the opposition would rightly be complaining about Edinburgh centralisation.
However your finger pointing and attempt to gleefully political point score is distraction to the actual topic.

I campaigned against the funicular prior to it even being constructed in 2001. That was long before the SNP even came to power in Scotland (2007).
During that time I have seen multiple operators fail spectacularly : CML -> Natural Retreats and then HIE as public owner of last resort.
I could give you a long list of the errors made and people responsible for those decisions.
Susan Smith, Charlotte Wright and David Michael Gorton (Natural Retreats) should all be investigated for their role.

FWIW : I have written letters & emails to MSPs (of all parties) and made several FoI requests over last 15 years.
Ultimately the VMP preventing visitor access from the top station means that the train-set was always be a financial basket case.
For 8 months of the year the ability to attract repeat custom (hikers, bikers & tourists) was always going to be limited by design.
Ultimately the funicular was simply the wrong lift in the wrong place!
The irony of public money being used to destroy what was previously a flagship ski resort is not lost.
Especially when you look at the recent success of Glenshee, Glencoe, Lecht, Nevis Range on far smaller budgets.

Hence the need for Scottish government to hold a full public inquiry as to what went wrong at HIE.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 4-05-22 12:47; edited 1 time in total
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Yes all that ^
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
ster wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, which they could have but didnt do.
And that does not matter as it’s clearly directed by SG.


Jezuz wept..
... had the Scottish government simply ignored a 2017 vote by Scottish parliament (... to retain an HIE board independent of government) the opposition would rightly be complaining about Edinburgh centralisation.
However your finger pointing and attempt to gleefully political point score is distraction to the actual topic.



Finger pointing and points scoring? What was this little post if it wasnt trying to do that very thing, to imply that it was the evil opposition that allowed HIE to destroy the place with the poor old SNP SG having clean hands as they tried their best? And if this issue instead now dates to 2001 instead, then this post was a total irrelevance to the topic, no?


Haggis_Trap wrote:

... the Scottish government voted to disband HIE but were, sadly, blocked by opposition parties who voted to retain an independent board in 2017

Vote on HIE will be taken into account, says Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38677356


Unfortunately a few facts knocked that on the head.

I am not sure who you are trying to convince when you try to always paint the SNP SG as the closest things to saints in Scotland no matter what they do, us or yourself? If it was the SNP SG that DIRECTED the HIE acts/projects since 2007 then just own it.

I'm looking forward to when you get around to explaining who was responsible for the CalMac Ferry scandal, the illuminati, the masons?
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ster wrote:

If it was the SNP SG that DIRECTED the HIE acts/projects since 2007 then just own it.


Uhhm : Cairngorm was operated by a private company (CML followed by Natural Retreats) until HIE stepped in as public owner of last resort in 2018. Shortly after the structural issues with the funicular concerete became public. However it is clear you know very little about the funicular, it's history, nor the structure of HIE. Rather you came here to gleefully point score about the SNP

Quote:
I'm looking forward to when you get around to explaining who was responsible for the CalMac Ferry scandal, the illuminati, the masons?


Start a new topic and I will happily give you my positive experience of Cal Mac ferrys. 97.2% of routes on time this week (see below) : though you won't read that on BBC when there are local elections tomorrow Cool

Out of interest, when did you last sail with them?

https://www.calmac.co.uk/article/6280/Information-on-Performance-Monitoring
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ster wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, you can say all you like re what the SNP SG wanted to do about HIE, then did or didn't do, ultimately the HIE is still responsible to the SG, something on which you are silent. Is the HIE responsible to the SG or not?


It was also supposedly responsible to HMG before May 1999, ie when this debacle was signed off by Scottish Ministers it was as part of HM Government pre-devolution. HIE appears to to have operated as a law unto itself, and the vote that @Haggis_Trap references seems to have simply bolstered their view that they are untouchable.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 4-05-22 23:00; edited 1 time in total
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ster wrote:
And yet Scotland trusts the HIE to develop a satellite launch hub?


This should be OK, no shortage of rockets at HIE! rolling eyes
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61276168
lets hope they don’t plan to sell it to China!
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