Err... it might be something to do with the exposure - cable or no cable.
We've done a couple of VFs in France and, despite being "clippped on", I still found some sections rather disconcerting to say the least. (Ar5e nipping would in fact be a more accurate term )
Though it was tecnically easy, stepping across a vertical cliff on steel pegs or planks; or climbing a ladder straight up it, with a drop of a couple of hundred feet to a lake below, certainly helped focus my mind.
It was certainly great fun, however, and a real buzz!
Err... it might be something to do with the exposure - cable or no cable.
We've done a couple of VF in France, as well as Klettersteig in Austria (same thing), and, despite being "clippped on", I still found some sections rather disconcerting to say the least. (Ar5e nipping would in fact be a more accurate term )
Hence Telford Mike's comment, I presume....
Though it was tecnically easy, stepping across a vertical cliff on steel pegs or planks; or climbing a ladder straight up it, with a drop of a couple of hundred feet to a lake below, certainly helped focus my mind.
It was certainly great fun, however, and a real buzz!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
johnE wrote:
Why terrifying, they are on a cable?
Yes but some rather airy vertical sections where a fall would result in at least a 3m fall onto ladders and sharp rock. It’s not like supported climbing where you can keep the rope tight.
After all it is free
After all it is free
TheGeneralist wrote:
Kid rated Bremse?
That's a valid point, if the brake on the via ferrate/klettersteig set is not sized for the child's weight it might not function and brake the fall.
It can get tricky when the cables are under the snow but you have to get down somehow. (Monte Rosa - March 2019)
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I was terrified on the trickier bits of the easy route in Mayrhofen a couple of years ago. Kim said she could only just reach some of the holds and steps, not sure how a small kid could have done it.
The Haid steig klettersteig has a ladder that is built into the rock at the side (see @ 4:06). I've done it a couple of times and as if ladder wasn't scary enough, some of the steps/rungs are either missing or bent to make it even more interesting.
That's a valid point, if the brake on the via ferrate/klettersteig set is not sized for the child's weight it might not function and brake the fall.
It can get tricky when the cables are under the snow but you have to get down somehow. (Monte Rosa - March 2019)
Yes I got the kids ones but says min weight 40kg which Junior (f) is nowhere near. I assume it would brake too sharply without the weight to pull out the shock absorption device? Fortunately she’s more prudent than her gung ho brother! The impression I get is a fall would be at best very painful - metal and rock aren’t too forgiving...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
BobinCH wrote:
Yes I got the kids ones but says min weight 40kg which Junior (f) is nowhere near. I assume it would brake too sharply without the weight to pull out the shock absorption device? Fortunately she’s more prudent than her gung ho brother! The impression I get is a fall would be at best very painful - metal and rock aren’t too forgiving...
Yes it can be difficult for small and light children as they are not heavy enough to activate the shock absorption system and the points of grip in the rock can be very far apart for them.
In the event of a fall the carabiners slide down the cable till they hit a fixing point and this sudden stop can then swing them sharply into the wall, they could also be upside down at this point.
Some new systems have an automatic backstop which could prevent this. The standard way of dealing with small, light and inexperienced children is for an adult to go first and attach an additional rope to the child's harness. The child uses the via ferrata/klettersteig set as normal to gain experience. The adult takes up any slack in the rope and only puts tension on the rope when catching a fall or helping the child up difficult sections.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 3-08-20 10:04; edited 3 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Via ferata deaths in Austria average about 6 per year.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The design of via ferrata is getting safer these days. For example the use of "pig tails" at the anchor points to allow a belay rope to be threaded through and the use of rubber cones on the wire to allow even gentler impact should you fall. I have noticed that in France in particular they close the via very quickly if there is any damage to the rungs, wire or stability of the rock.
This is also done in the Dolomites to a lesser extent where it can cause some problems. Whereas in France via ferrata are constructed as sporting activities (you do them only for fun) in the Dolomites they are an intregal part of the footpath network. A few years ago we were doing a footpath circuit in the Pala area of the Dolomites, planning to return to san martino di castrozza about 7 in the evening. Toward the end of the circuit we came to a closed section of ferrata which involved a 4 hour detour. Fortunately most of the section in the dark was on good footpaths.
Quote:
Via ferata deaths in Austria average about 6 per year.
To put this into perspective in 2015 there were 30 deaths amongst hill walkers in the Lake District, though this appears to have been a particularly bad year.
ps great pictures @BobinCH,
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
Yes I got the kids ones but says min weight 40kg which Junior (f) is nowhere near. I assume it would brake too sharply without the weight to pull out the shock absorption device? Fortunately she’s more prudent than her gung ho brother! The impression I get is a fall would be at best very painful - metal and rock aren’t too forgiving...
Yes it can be difficult for small and light children as they are not heavy enough to activate the shock absorption system and the points of grip in the rock can be very far apart for them.
In the event of a fall the carabiners slide down the cable till they hit a fixing point and this sudden stop can then swing them sharply into the wall, they could also be upside down at this point.
Some new systems have an automatic backstop which could prevent this. The standard way of dealing with small, light and inexperienced children is for an adult to go first and attach an additional rope to the child's harness. The child uses the via ferrata/klettersteig set as normal to gain experience. The adult takes up any slack in the rope and only puts tension on the rope when catching a fall or helping the child up difficult sections.
Thanks for that. Hmmm not sure she’ll want to be attached to me though...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@johnE, I was expecting a comparison like that. However rhe more interesting comparison would be % off deaths compared to other activities. However not so interesting that I can be bothered to look it up
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@BobinCH, Nice pics, looks like a good day out. I'm planning a few via ferrata with my kids when I'm next out.
We also have an increasing number of "Via Corda" around Chamonix, which I find are a really good alternative to via ferrata. These are long (the longest I've done was about 600m vertical ascent, probably 20+ pitches if we'd pitched it all) but relatively easy (up to about 4c), well equipped rock climbs/scrambles, where you can pitch or move together depending on skill level. I've taken the kids on a few now and they really enjoy them.
The nice thing is that, since we use rock gear, I have a degree of control in how well to protect/how safe to make it. I can lead and bring each child up individually on a tight rope, or we can all move together with the kids learning to clip and unclip gear.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@JimboS, A few years ago the BMC published a review of the risks involved in climbing https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-dangerous-are-climbing-and-hill-walking. It appears that both hillwalking and climbing in the UK are pretty safe activities provided you don't cycle to the crag and certainly don't ride a horse to get there (fewer accidents per participant hour )
@snowdave, I like the sound of these Via Corda. 600m of scambling/rock climbing sounds a good day out to me. The one near us in Les Arcs is more or less a traverse, which didn't look that great from the guide book. I must now go and actually do it.
That's a valid point, if the brake on the via ferrate/klettersteig set is not sized for the child's weight it might not function and brake the fall.
It can get tricky when the cables are under the snow but you have to get down somehow. (Monte Rosa - March 2019)
Yes I got the kids ones but says min weight 40kg which Junior (f) is nowhere near. I assume it would brake too sharply without the weight to pull out the shock absorption device? Fortunately she’s more prudent than her gung ho brother! The impression I get is a fall would be at best very painful - metal and rock aren’t too forgiving...
This is a good article which explains why you should have the correct kinetic energy absorber for your weight - without the KEA the fall factors can be serious/fatal
Petzl also say that belaying children under 40kg (their Scorpio harness minimum rating) with a rope is mandatory
This is a normative requirement - all VF lanyards currently produced & sold in the EU have to meet the current European Standard for VF lanyards which stipulates protecting the user from excessive deceleration for users masses 40 - 120 KG (this is quite complex) - the previous standard was 50kg min user mass).
As a comparison - if the energy absorber is calibrated to limit force to 5kN then this means a decelration of 5g for a 100kg mass, however a 50kg mass will experience 10g deceleration... (F=ma and all that).
Some interesting solutions out there - Petzl use a 'stepped' / progressive energy absorber which needs lower force at first to deploy, then ramps up to be able to deal with the energy of a big mass falling.
Skylotec have an interesting solution as well to limit vertical distance of fall:
https://www.skylotec.com/eu_en/sport/products/via-ferrata-sets/rider-3-0-r-l-1005-920-000.html
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There's an entertaining take on Via Ferrata in the Llanberis slate quarries, called Snakes and Ladders...It involves all sorts of excitement, such as climbing up a 6" diameter chain for 10m (usually done by leading and protecting with sling(s)), abseiling into the Lost World and climbing iron ladders in varying states of disrepair - though the disrepair is to some extent cosmetic, with broken rungs replaced with rope, and the notorious "spinning ladder" (it does too!) is frequently re-roped.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
As a comparison - if the energy absorber is calibrated to limit force to 5kN then this means a decelration of 5g for a 100kg mass, however a 50kg mass will experience 10g deceleration... (F=ma and all that).
It's not quite as simple as that. Many modern ferrata brakes take the form of ripping stiching apart on the device hence decelerating the falling body. If you have insufficient force to start the threads snapping then the deceleration is very high indeed.
@johnE,
That‘s the automatic backstop device I mentioned earlier.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
johnE wrote:
Quote:
As a comparison - if the energy absorber is calibrated to limit force to 5kN then this means a deceleration of 5g for a 100kg mass, however a 50kg mass will experience 10g deceleration... (F=ma and all that).
It's not quite as simple as that. Many modern ferrata brakes take the form of ripping stitching apart on the device hence decelerating the falling body. If you have insufficient force to start the threads snapping then the deceleration is very high indeed.
It is almost as simple as that though. All current VF lanyards produced to 958:2017 use either a tear-out stitching or tear-out webbing design (I don't have the standard to hand but I have a feeling that rope & friction style devices are no longer allowed but stand ready to be corrected on that!). To meet the requirements of 958:2017 a 40kg mass can experience no more than 3,5kN peak force, and a 120kg mass no more than 6kN p.f. - this is using a steel mass dropped from 5m (the 2007 version of the standard only used tests with a 80kg mass...). Hence a 40kg mass will be subject to max deceleration of 9g. But if you took a 30kg mass and dropped it it would either - not deploy the absorber (which could involve max deceleration up to about 12g- or deploy the absorber, in which case max deceleration would be somewhere around 12g, which is definitely into the 'internal organs ripped from their supporting structures' territory.
To give a very concrete example of all this Petzl's current Scorpio lanyards use a tear-out webbing (not stitching) which is calibrated in 3 levels going from ~3,5kN to about ~5kN.
Of course the twist with all this (and same with all standards relating to sports- or work- verticality) is that a human body in a harness has energy absorbing capacities so real world scenarios will be different to the lab tests, but that is a whole different can of worms...
That is the lanyard I linked to in my previous post which is EN 958:2017 (ie tested and 'safe') - they wouldn't be able to sell it in EU if it didn;t meet the standard...
All of which has rather helped in further derailing the thread... @BobinCH looks like a fun day was had by all - good effort by the Jrsd!!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
offpisteskiing wrote:
johnE wrote:
Quote:
As a comparison - if the energy absorber is calibrated to limit force to 5kN then this means a deceleration of 5g for a 100kg mass, however a 50kg mass will experience 10g deceleration... (F=ma and all that).
It's not quite as simple as that. Many modern ferrata brakes take the form of ripping stitching apart on the device hence decelerating the falling body. If you have insufficient force to start the threads snapping then the deceleration is very high indeed.
It is almost as simple as that though. All current VF lanyards produced to 958:2017 use either a tear-out stitching or tear-out webbing design (I don't have the standard to hand but I have a feeling that rope & friction style devices are no longer allowed but stand ready to be corrected on that!). To meet the requirements of 958:2017 a 40kg mass can experience no more than 3,5kN peak force, and a 120kg mass no more than 6kN p.f. - this is using a steel mass dropped from 5m (the 2007 version of the standard only used tests with a 80kg mass...). Hence a 40kg mass will be subject to max deceleration of 9g. But if you took a 30kg mass and dropped it it would either - not deploy the absorber (which could involve max deceleration up to about 12g- or deploy the absorber, in which case max deceleration would be somewhere around 12g, which is definitely into the 'internal organs ripped from their supporting structures' territory.
To give a very concrete example of all this Petzl's current Scorpio lanyards use a tear-out webbing (not stitching) which is calibrated in 3 levels going from ~3,5kN to about ~5kN.
Of course the twist with all this (and same with all standards relating to sports- or work- verticality) is that a human body in a harness has energy absorbing capacities so real world scenarios will be different to the lab tests, but that is a whole different can of worms...
That is the lanyard I linked to in my previous post which is EN 958:2017 (ie tested and 'safe') - they wouldn't be able to sell it in EU if it didn;t meet the standard...
All of which has rather helped in further derailing the thread... @BobinCH looks like a fun day was had by all - good effort by the Jrsd!!
Thanks @offpisteskiing - this probably explains why my quest to find lanyards for my 30kg daughter is futile!
I did find a fairly comprehensive review here: https://www.bergsteigen.com/produkte/test-klettersteigset-2019/ which makes clear the limitations of the skylotec - i.e. out-of-gauge cables, chains etc. It also suggests an alternative locking set, the AustriAlpin Hydra.Evo which looks interesting, and cheaper.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
johnE wrote:
Quote:
As a comparison - if the energy absorber is calibrated to limit force to 5kN then this means a decelration of 5g for a 100kg mass, however a 50kg mass will experience 10g deceleration... (F=ma and all that).
It's not quite as simple as that. Many modern ferrata brakes take the form of ripping stiching apart on the device hence decelerating the falling body. If you have insufficient force to start the threads snapping then the deceleration is very high indeed.
.
I think you should reread what he is saying, because he's right. Your last sentence makes no sense beyond what johne said.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Great photos
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnE wrote:
Why terrifying, they are on a cable?
I've done some VF in the Dolomites and there was plenty of scope to hurt yourself if you fell e.g. possible falls onto ledges were long enough to break something. I was a rock-climber when I did them and was surprised by the level of difficulty and commitment in even mid-grade VFs. As a climber the "what happens if I fall here" thinking was automatic, I was somewhat expecting a more or less safe adrenaline experience but they weren't. I do wonder if some of the people who set out on them understand that.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Illustration of how far you’d fall...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@BobinCH, yep - it doesn't bear thinking about really does it !!
Lead-climbing levels of consequence, with the addition of metalwork on the way down...!
I can see the merit of a running belay, with the added advantage of getting the kids used to moving together. Looks like another good use for this season's new rope
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I suppose it all depends on how you define terrifying. To me via ferrata are not terrifying and I have done a lot of them. They are exciting and sometimes very exposed, but I've never felt in danger. Actually that is not quite true. We were doing the Toviere in Val d'Isere when a thunder storm rolled in. You could feel the tingling on the cables. We fled.
Personally, I wasn't "terrified" but I've never been "terrified" lead climbing either. I did find the VF needed more respect than I'd expected. The cables served to stop you being killed in a fall but not necessarily to stop you being badly hurt in a situation in which you'd need external help to extricate you. They were closer to a climbing experience than a touristic one. I enjoyed them and they do get you into spectacular positions but didn't go back to do more, in the absence of a climbing partner I found I preferred scrambling or low-grade soloing, with self-reliance and the pleasure of route-finding, and without all the metalwork.
I'm not a parent but I've taken friend's kids climbing, treating it as soloing as far as I was concerned i.e. they belayed me but I wasn't relying on it. I would not take other people's kids on a VF. Too committing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think I'll open another can of worms - insurance for via ferrata.
I first started doing via ferrata in the Dolomites and noticed that they were all on marked footpaths. My travel insurance covered footpaths but not mountaineering so I was OK - we even did a lovely one up the main face of Marmolada and down the glacier (that bit could be described as terrifying - us UK climbers have little experience on glaciers). In fact many of the really good footpaths in the Dolomtes contain sections of iron. Now to France where the Vias are not on footpaths and rarely go anywhere what insurance do you need? Since I also climb and ski I have an annual policy that covers mountaineering and off piste skiing,
After all it is free
After all it is free
@johnE, my "normal" (i.e non climbing) insurance depends on whether I'm using climbing equipment or not, rather than whether its a footpath or not. It also has a negligence clause, so I don't think I could get away with just doing via ferrata without any safety kit.
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@BobinCH, we always clip onto the staples with the second arm on vertical sections like that.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
johnE wrote:
I think I'll open another can of worms - insurance for via ferrata.
I first started doing via ferrata in the Dolomites and noticed that they were all on marked footpaths. My travel insurance covered footpaths but not mountaineering so I was OK - we even did a lovely one up the main face of Marmolada and down the glacier (that bit could be described as terrifying - us UK climbers have little experience on glaciers). In fact many of the really good footpaths in the Dolomtes contain sections of iron. Now to France where the Vias are not on footpaths and rarely go anywhere what insurance do you need? Since I also climb and ski I have an annual policy that covers mountaineering and off piste skiing,
In your case if you have mountaineering cover you will be fine in Europe at least as VF count as a mountaineering activity. Myself being a french resident, I am a member of the Club Alpin Francais and their insurance covers me for (almost) any mountain activity - I think speedflying/base is extra.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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