 Poster: A snowHead
|
British ski instructor Simon Butler after many years long struggle, that saw him receive a total of 42,000 Euros in fines and a suspended prison sentence, has finally won his fight to teach in France https://www.france24.com/en/20200518-british-ski-instructor-wins-years-long-fight-to-teach-in-france
Butler's lawyer, Philippe Planes, added that Butler's newfound freedom to teach at the school he runs would not be changed by Brexit.
"It won't change anything for Britons already settled here, their rights are secured," he said.
"For others in the future, that will depend on the negotiations under way" on Britain's future relation with the EU, he said.
I think there just might be a few noses out of joint at ESF (and some in BASI) as a result of the court ruling. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Is there any difference between ESF and BASI 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Good for him
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Yay, not before time. A shameful business, but a good final result.
I wonder if he will now take it further.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Funny that case was one mostly because of the EU legislation on regulated professions (FR not applying it correctly), yet UKIP waved the flag 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I read somewhere that BASI had spent £250k to end up on the losing side. If true then there should be consequences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@jbob, Why were BASI in the fight at all?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@Riccardo,
A good question with a bitterly contested answer.
If you search on snowheads there’s a lot of comment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| philwig wrote: |
Yay, not before time. A shameful business, but a good final result.
I wonder if he will now take it further. |
Interesting, obviously he'll get back any fines paid, but I don't know whether French law allows a claim for financial loss to his business due to (subsequently determined to be) incorrect criminal charges. Come to that I don't know whether British Law allows such a claim either (I expect not).
Of course he (and his supporters) might want to take it further with BASI..... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Is there any difference between ESF and BASI |
Is this one of those Zen Buddhist questions?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Gerry,
TTT was one vocal person who said Simon wouldn't win and if I recall a lady? From chamonix area
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Great news, well overdue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Happy for him. He should be compensated for damage done to his business, loss of earnings, stress etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| jbob wrote: |
@Riccardo,
A good question with a bitterly contested answer.
If you search on snowheads there’s a lot of comment. |
You're right there's a huge amount of comment. I'm not sure any of the bits I read really answered the question as to why BASI got quite as involved as it did. But sadly, a noticeable lack of defence of their actions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
The BASI statement (from a few years back I think?) states that "While BASI maintains that its position was correct...." In the light of the French court's final determination that Simon Butler was entitled to work as a ski instructor in France does BASI still maintain that its position was correct?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@Gerry,
TTT was one vocal person who said Simon wouldn't win and if I recall a lady? From chamonix area |
Firechick?
I was skeptical when all this started, when was it? 2003 or 2004? 17 years fighting the authorities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TTT seemed to be some back bottom who thought only native ski instructors were worthwhile and pretended to be some bigshot lawyer who assured us Butler didn't have a case. Possibly a troll.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hilarious, on the same news article on Snow Industry News BASI are advertising for instructors...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Will have to do more research because there was more than case against Butler. Didn't the authorities agree he, personally, could teach but he was employing unqualified, in French eyes, stagieres. I think the stagieres got fined as well or is this fine theirs?
The battle he is/was having over employing and training of stagieres is the same battle ESF is having with ESi and other more 'local' ski schools...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you dig out episode 14 of the Ski Instructors Podcast it is an extended interview with Simon Butler, where he goes into all the history and the final result (which was, as I understand, known some months ago and this final step was just a formality). As I recall (it's been a while since I listened to it) all the guys working for him are cleared too..
Well worth a listen if you've been following this at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@Tubaski, this seems to be a separate criminal case but as I said this has been going on since 2003 in various forms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
@davidof, He does say in the interview that there was one case left to formally be resolved, but that the rulings in the other cases effectively meant that it was a formality. I'm pretty sure this is it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Rosbifs wrote: |
| The battle he is/was having over employing and training of stagieres is the same battle ESF is having with ESi and other more 'local' ski schools... |
That's not my understanding of the current case, which seems now to have been settled in Butler's favour. AIUI, this case was focused on whether he was personally qualified to teach, and whether the French authorities should have recognised his qualifications and issued a Carte Pro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| AIUI, this case was focused on whether he was personally qualified to teach, and whether the French authorities should have recognised his qualifications and issued a Carte Pro. |
I'm wondering about that. Does this case clarify the legality of L2s and L3s working in France ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
The L2 and L3 were also found not guilty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| The L2 and L3 were also found not guilty. |
That's what I heard as well. Do you know if the judgement has been published? On previous occasions I thought the immediate news about the judgement didn't match exactly what the judgement said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@rob@rar, not sure when the judgement will be published. It takes a long time in France
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
| I'm wondering about that. Does this case clarify the legality of L2s and L3s working in France ? |
^ Simons argument was that EU law meant L2, L3 or L4 were equivalent qualifications and eligible to work in France.
Basically French interpretation (which required L4 plus Euro-test to issue a carte-pro) was in direct contradiction to EU law.
BASI didn't back him on that fight and even chucked him out of the association.
Fair play to Simon Butler for winning his court case : not going to lie I was originally sceptical.
As a permanent resident in France he can carry on teaching and deserves to be pleased with result.
However for most people Brexit will mean this "victory" is an irrelevance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
However for most people Brexit will mean this "victory" is an irrelevance. |
Most Brits but not for people who have taken the Swiss or German exams etc who are EU nationals.
However will it change anything. The Grenoble office that deals with carte pro still routinely tells everyone without the Eurotest they can't teach and then waits to be taken to court before issuing a carte pro at the last minute. Will this change? It adds 3 to 5 years to the process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
... Simon's argument was that EU law meant L2, L3 or L4 were equivalent qualifications and eligible to work in France.
Basically French law (which required L4 plus Euro-test to issue a carte-pro) was in direct contradiction to EU law.
BASI didn't back him on that fight and even chucked him out of the association.... . |
That's how I remember it.
BASI allowed their own qualifications to be treated as second-rate in France, with the result that at least Butler's business was threatened.
When he complained, they threw him out of their organisation.
The BASI statement doesn't explain why they would apparently damage their own qualifications' standing
and their members' interests in that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| philwig wrote: |
The BASI statement doesn't explain why they would apparently damage their own qualifications' standing
and their members' interests in that way. |
^ France one of the few places in world you can make full time living teaching skiing as career rather than seasonal job (90% L4 teach there). BASI could have chosen to fight this battle, on behalf of lower levels : but victory would have risked killing the golden goose and seriously rocked Anglo-French relationship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
The BASI statement doesn't explain why they would apparently damage their own qualifications' standing
and their members' interests in that way. |
^ France one of the few places in world you can make full time living teaching skiing as career rather than seasonal job (90% L4 teach there). BASI could have chosen to fight this battle, on behalf of lower levels : but victory would have risked killing the golden goose and seriously rocked Anglo-French relationship. |
Ironic that in a small way it no doubt contributed to the Brexit result.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But, France not being a common law jurisdiction, will this actually change anything for all the other instructors?
My (limited) understanding is only ECJ can force France change the law and procedures. That can take another 10 years to battle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Oleski wrote: |
But, France not being a common law jurisdiction, will this actually change anything for all the other instructors?
My (limited) understanding is only ECJ can force France change the law and procedures. That can take another 10 years to battle. |
No that is case law now. If someone is prosecuted for the same offence(s) then the lower courts will have to abide by the appeal court decisions. Only if the state appeals to the Court de Cassation (supreme court) will that possibly change.
Laws can change though. The new EU MOU stamp may superseed all this. Rob might know more. AFAIKS L4s and L3s will be able to work independently as the French have to accept their level minus 1 I think, again Rob might be able to confirm.
It doesn't stop the office issuing carte pro being obstructive as they are.
This doesn't just affect Ski Instructors, the French deep state is very deep and very obstructive. The French health minister said it was very difficult to get anything done during the Covid crisis due to various "corporations" and functionaries obstructing everything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| davidof wrote: |
| The new EU MOU stamp may superseed all this. Rob might know more. AFAIKS L4s and L3s will be able to work independently as the French have to accept their level minus 1 I think, again Rob might be able to confirm. |
The MOU stamp doesn't change anything, it's just a mechanism to make the administration of cross-border working for professionals a little smoother. It doesn't involve any new legislation.
You'll have a much better understanding of French law than me, but the only thing I'd add to what you said for qualifications below L4 is that independent working would be on the basis of temporary provision of their services rather than the right to become fully established.
You're right about the potential for the office being obstructive about issuing Carte Pros. IIRC, I believe that Jean-Yves has (or is preparing to) move legal proceedings against some of the key officials in Albertville for not complying with French law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
