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Anybody booking for 2021 yet?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Well we don't know where we will be 're covid on 1 Jan 21. But we can look at yesterday for Stidiot. France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and The Netherlands all have significantly higher daily new case rates than the UK and we are similar to Austria and Switzerland. The UK is also doing far more testing than most countries in Europe.

With so much difference across Europe I can't see Italy agreeing to no Brit skiers as part of an EU wide policy when they could be making hay as Brits avoid the virus hotspots. Its going to be everyman for himself.

Tourism has already taken a massive hit, those that can take Brits because of a better covid record will do so. Economics will prevail, just recall how Macron and one of his side kicks were going to retaliate when they went onto the UK Q list. Suddenly nothing happened because as @Davidof put it "Macron was bitchslapped by the tourist industry".

The biggest issue for Brits will be insurance, so it at the moment I can't see myself getting to my apt for long this season unless France gets a grip of its numbers.
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chocksaway wrote:


The biggest issue for Brits will be insurance, so it at the moment I can't see myself getting to my apt for long this season unless France gets a grip of its numbers.


You could if your glorious PM gets his act together and gets EHIC extended. wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
robs1 wrote:
Mr happy strikes again, some folk will always find a problem for every solution. why would the EU have one policy on covid, different areas will have different rates of infections and different ways of dealing with it. Ski areas will be putting enormous pressure on to enable skiing.
They simply cant afford an empty season


Agreed, but Mr Grumpy doesn't like reasoned argument...
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We were going to book a package today until we read about the eu uniform quarantine plans and haven’t bothered. The thought of trying to get a refund just fills us with dread. Or of arguing about where the TO considers acceptable to send us in the event of a problem versus where we actually want to go.
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I don't see insurance as an issue. Holiday booking has very limited exposure, my insurance covers usual stuff and can top up with carte neige. Let's face it if we contracted covid abroad we'd highly likely not show symptoms or only have symptoms on our return worst case I'm a day drive from home.

And let's not forget the most important fact this virus is overwhelmingly survivable. The vast majority have very mild if any symptoms. Yes we can pass it on and that's not good so do your very best not to. We may already have had it.
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@James77, With you on this. As long as I can get insurance for ski related issues like broken legs and knackered knees, COVID itself wouldn't stop me skiing next Easter.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A few points to note:

Currently the Schengen area is closed to all non EU/EEA/CH travellers except certain categories like diplomats, freight lorry drivers etc, or people from coming outside Schengen who can show permanent residence inside.

This is why the 31 Dec date could have an impact on UK residents. From 23:00 On 31/12 the UK is outside of this zone.

On Insurance - if France, Switzerland, Austria remain on the FCO essential travel only list, then most policies will not be valid.

I recently flew to Russia and for insurance I had to buy the specialist Against FCO advice (essentially for war zones) type cover.
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Yes of course if France etc is still on the FCO list insurance will be invalid that does put another perspective on it. However, if they're not covid disclosures on a policy won't stop me going was where I was going with it. Quarantine will be the decider and hoping the ludicrous policy is replaced by something sensible longer term.
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Android2000 wrote:
A few points to note:

Currently the Schengen area is closed to all non EU/EEA/CH travellers except certain categories like diplomats, freight lorry drivers etc, or people from coming outside Schengen who can show permanent residence inside.

This is why the 31 Dec date could have an impact on UK residents. From 23:00 On 31/12 the UK is outside of this zone.

On Insurance - if France, Switzerland, Austria remain on the FCO essential travel only list, then most policies will not be valid.

I recently flew to Russia and for insurance I had to buy the specialist Against FCO advice (essentially for war zones) type cover.


Where did you get that info from ? The French foreign office has a list of countries that can enter and the UK and a fair few others are on it
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@robs1, and Austria is fine for UK visitors
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Quote:

Where did you get that info from ? The French foreign office has a list of countries that can enter and the UK and a fair few others are on it



Apologies, I was incorrect - the Schengen area was closed to non EU/EEA entry until August, when a list of about 12 "safe" countries was added:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-council-updates-list-of-third-countries-for-which-the-member-states-are-recommended-to-open-borders/

The likes of New Zealand and Japan, ie low cases.

You will find the France list is a mirror of the EU Council list.




Quote:

and Austria is fine for UK visitors



2 weeks quarantine is required when coming back to UK if a person has traveled to Austria, and travel insurance will likely be invalid, as Austria is not on the FCO exempt-from-all-but-essential-travel list.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So let's worry about it when we need to travel, all this doom and gloom helps no one.
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Boris wrote:
@Android2000, Tests on arrival in EU - why not, small price to pay to ski particularly as it would mean no quarantine.


Given that a test in the first 2 or 3 days is unreliable it would seem sensible to enforce quarantine for at least 3 days with release only with a negative test.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Android2000 wrote:



"and Austria is fine for UK visitors"


2 weeks quarantine is required when coming back to UK if a person has traveled to Austria, and travel insurance will likely be invalid, as Austria is not on the FCO exempt-from-all-but-essential-travel list.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel


Yes I know, but Austria is not closed to UK visitors and you suggested that it was as it is a Schengen country . Restrictions were lifted on 27th July. i have essential business and due to travel on Friday. I can't quarantine so won't be going
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I never suggested that anywhere in EU, including Austria, is currently closed to UK visitors. The point is that the UK is still counted as an EU member state for these purposes until 31 December.
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Android2000 wrote:
I never suggested that anywhere in EU, including Austria, is currently closed to UK visitors. The point is that the UK is still counted as an EU member state for these purposes until 31 December.

Except it isnt a member anymore we left end of jan. The french ministry mentions us separately from the EU
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@robs1, that's where I was coming from
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Finland is proposing that leisure travellers arrive with evidence of a recent negative test, go into quarantine for 72 hours, and have a second test after that. This would be as of 23rd November.

Unsurprisingly the tourist industry in Lapland are not impressed. It surely will kill the season or at least a large part of it. Inghams are now heavily discounting their trips...
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My friend is all set to travel down to Spain for a few months in her motor home. No idea how any new rules would apply to people “on wheels”.
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@bambionskiis, We are off there in the campervan in a week or so. My understanding is that until 31/12 in general we are treated the same as real EU members. After 31/12 we will be full "third country", and anything could happen. We will be coming home before then!
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Non EU citizens booking EU Winter Trips from Jan 1st 2021 is a very real issue ...

If you have to pay for flights & hotel deposits etc between now and Jan 1st ...

I cannot imagine many folks wanting to Quarantine for 2 weeks at their own expense if any accommodation owners would even except people for Quarantine purposes...very unlikely.

Similarly taking a "non essential" * test 72 hours before travel may turnout positive and travel will be impossible

* Winter Holidays are non essential


""United Kingdom citizens and their family members are exempted from the temporary entry ban, since they are treated in the same way as European Union nationals until the end of the Brexit transition period, on December 31, 2020."""



http://youtube.com/v/nQjbhDokolg

UK with so many new restrictions coming (curfews etc) will be effectively entering a 2nd National Lockdown within the next two weeks.


STAY AT HOME
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@stanton, You stay at home and look after yourself other people can worry about themselves.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I am hoping to go to either Italy or France over Xmas while we're still in the EU.

My main problem is that we have two people in our party who, job-wise, cannot quarantine for 2 weeks on their return.


In Germany, they have no quarantine because you get tested at the airport!! Why can't we do that here FGS?
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jonnyboy9 wrote:
I am hoping to go to either Italy or France over Xmas while we're still in the EU.

My main problem is that we have two people in our party who, job-wise, cannot quarantine for 2 weeks on their return.


In Germany, they have no quarantine because you get tested at the airport!! Why can't we do that here FGS?


I reckon that by xmas they’ll have worked out a way to at least shorten quarantine here too. And of course if we’re all jolly optimistic then we’ll be getting moonshot tested six times a day by walking past a cardboard cutout of Matt Hancock.
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Quote:

In Germany, they have no quarantine because you get tested at the airport!! Why can't we do that here FGS?


It takes time from being infected to producing a positive test. So a negative test at the airport doesn't mean you are virus free. Also we have limited testing, it makes sense to focus it on teachers, doctoral nurses, and people with symptoms than testing everyone at the airport. At the end of the day a holiday is nonessential.
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In Iceland you can quarantine, or take two tests, a few days apart, over a 7 day period. So you can trade a week's quarantine for a couple of tests. Whatever.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
bambionskiis wrote:
. Or of arguing about where the TO considers acceptable to send us in the event of a problem versus where we actually want to go.


That is exactly why I didn't book what was a very good deal from Crystal a few weeks ago. I emailed them with very specific questions about what happens if my booked holiday was not possible and specifically if I would then have the choice of whether to accept their offer of an alternative or get a full refund. They would not answer, so nothing was booked, nor will be, until days before if need be.

Coincidentally I got a survey on my thoughts and plans for 20/21 from Crystal yesterday. Not much room for manoeuvre in it but I did get the chance to say that unless I get a last minute refund option I won't be booking until the last minute.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

In Germany, they have no quarantine because you get tested at the airport!! Why can't we do that here FGS?


It takes time from being infected to producing a positive test. So a negative test at the airport doesn't mean you are virus free. Also we have limited testing, it makes sense to focus it on teachers, doctoral nurses, and people with symptoms than testing everyone at the airport. At the end of the day a holiday is nonessential.


I’m interested why Germany reckon an airport test is adequate whereas UK don’t.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
^^^^^ Because (in the absence of conclusive proof on virtually all Covid-19-related issues) every country is making things up as they go, to suit their own economies/industries...
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Germany is dropping airport testing because they can't cope, it's pay for your own test or quarantine for homecoming holidaymakers soon.
Just saw it on the news.
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mountainaddict wrote:
^^^^^ Because (in the absence of conclusive proof on virtually all Covid-19-related issues) every country is making things up as they go, to suit their own economies/industries...


I think it's because an airport test will catch enough asymptomatic people. The remaining covid carriers will be swept up in a working track and trace system.

As to those who think anything non-essential should be avoided, there are many people's businesses who completely rely on our non-essential travel. Of course, this isn't my primary motivation - but it's true all the same. If we take all steps to minimise our possible covid presence, then it should be entirely possible to take a responsible non-essential holiday. Especially, if we are renting a self-catered place.

Hope you all manage to get away this season!

Jon
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Governments are balancing the possible
Risk of missing some positives with airport testing, with the expectation/hope of 100% compliance with self isolation of returning holidaymakers. That is wishful thinking in the extreme.
In reality nothing like 100% will be complying...in fact there was a study released last week that only c. 30% were doing it fully. So the balance decision is actually between the positives missed by airport testing v the positives missed by self isolation non compliance.
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Quote:

As to those who think anything non-essential should be avoided, there are many people's businesses who completely rely on our non-essential travel.


I would happily travel abroad right now, but it is a selfish decision. I certainly wouldn't expect preferential treatment (free testing at airport, not having to quarantine etc.). Right now the goal should be to minimise spread. Yes businesses rely on non-essential travel, but the opposite argument seems just as valid - people moving around are more likely to spread the virus, which will increase infections, which will lead to restrictions and many more businesses suffering.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

As to those who think anything non-essential should be avoided, there are many people's businesses who completely rely on our non-essential travel.


I would happily travel abroad right now, but it is a selfish decision. I certainly wouldn't expect preferential treatment (free testing at airport, not having to quarantine etc.). Right now the goal should be to minimise spread. Yes businesses rely on non-essential travel, but the opposite argument seems just as valid - people moving around are more likely to spread the virus, which will increase infections, which will lead to restrictions and many more businesses suffering.


You are deluded if you think this. The economic tsunami that is on its way is going to make COVID look tame. Look at the reality behind the headlines. Testing vast numbers but the number of positives in percentage terms are incredibly very low compared to March/April, death rates are incredibly low, more people are dying of seasonal flu than COVID at present. The headlines don't actually represent the reality.
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thefatcontroller wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

As to those who think anything non-essential should be avoided, there are many people's businesses who completely rely on our non-essential travel.


I would happily travel abroad right now, but it is a selfish decision. I certainly wouldn't expect preferential treatment (free testing at airport, not having to quarantine etc.). Right now the goal should be to minimise spread. Yes businesses rely on non-essential travel, but the opposite argument seems just as valid - people moving around are more likely to spread the virus, which will increase infections, which will lead to restrictions and many more businesses suffering.


You are deluded if you think this. The economic tsunami that is on its way is going to make COVID look tame. Look at the reality behind the headlines. Testing vast numbers but the number of positives in percentage terms are incredibly very low compared to March/April, death rates are incredibly low, more people are dying of seasonal flu than COVID at present. The headlines don't actually represent the reality.


Whilst it's true that an economic pasting is certainly happening, there is probably some sort of scientific basis that governments are applying to them taking a giant revenue hit - and I say that living somewhere where tourism is a really big chunk of tax revenue.
...or is it all just a "deep state" conspiracy to stop you going on your ski holiday...? rolling eyes wink
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stuarth wrote:
thefatcontroller wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

As to those who think anything non-essential should be avoided, there are many people's businesses who completely rely on our non-essential travel.


I would happily travel abroad right now, but it is a selfish decision. I certainly wouldn't expect preferential treatment (free testing at airport, not having to quarantine etc.). Right now the goal should be to minimise spread. Yes businesses rely on non-essential travel, but the opposite argument seems just as valid - people moving around are more likely to spread the virus, which will increase infections, which will lead to restrictions and many more businesses suffering.


You are deluded if you think this. The economic tsunami that is on its way is going to make COVID look tame. Look at the reality behind the headlines. Testing vast numbers but the number of positives in percentage terms are incredibly very low compared to March/April, death rates are incredibly low, more people are dying of seasonal flu than COVID at present. The headlines don't actually represent the reality.


Whilst it's true that an economic pasting is certainly happening, there is probably some sort of scientific basis that governments are applying to them taking a giant revenue hit - and I say that living somewhere where tourism is a really big chunk of tax revenue.
...or is it all just a "deep state" conspiracy to stop you going on your ski holiday...? rolling eyes wink


All about risk. We were supposed to go to India next month, ain't happening. Do I think going to Spain or a party holiday resort in the summer was a good idea? No utter madness, we travelled 40 miles to a cottage in mid Wales. We own an apartment in the Alps, we have 2 seperate weeks planned but no travel booked so far. If allowed to travel then we will fly and hire, normally we use the direct Eurostar, that ain't running and a train to Paris and on to Bourg is to high risk and also a PITA. In general do i think skiing and the travel associated is high risk, nah. In reality you are more likely to get killed in a car accident travelling there than die of COVID. I'm not saying we all go about our daily lives as normal but if we don't do something soon then many countries economically are dead.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia do intrigue me, as they have made the decision no tourists can visit (and I assume this will stay like this until a vaccine is rolled out, so another 12-18 months?) then how will they survive. 11% of New Zealand's GDP is tourism, 2+ years of all that revenue gone, wow. My brother lives near Sydney harbour bridge. Sydney is empty, you can't even travel within states in Australia. He tells me of a rising suicide among the young as they see no hope.

I'm not suggesting we all go mad and travelling and if the gov said we couldn't go skiing then I won't go but behind the headlines of rising positive test numbers we need to look at the reality of the death rates for COVID. Negligible....On an average day in the UK upwards of 2,000 die from many things, 18 commit suicide daily. Nearly 1milllion worldwide have died from COVID. Annually 7m+ die from cigarettes, and we sell them legally.
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Quote:

Canada, New Zealand and Australia do intrigue me, as they have made the decision no tourists can visit (and I assume this will stay like this until a vaccine is rolled out, so another 12-18 months?) then how will they survive.


I think you are underestimating domestic tourism somewhat. For NZ domestic tourism brings in more money than foreign tourism:
"While international tourism expenditure amounted to $17.2 billion in the year to March 2019 or $47 million a day, domestic tourism totalled $23.7 billion, or $65 million a day."

Anecdotally, it seems domestic tourism is higher than usual in British Columbia this year. Makes sense that those that usually do international vacations are taking domestic ones. Will be interesting to see what the outcome is, I suspect a small decrease in tourism revenue but not catastrophic.

There are also plenty of international tourists on working holiday visas in these places already.

I agree with some of your points. The risk of death from covid for young healthy people is extremely low. The measures are in place for the vulnerable people. Yes it's possible to do a low risk ski trip, however there is still some risk involved. Also we know people do not follow the guidelines. I don't think being asked to miss one winter of skiing is a particular hardship.
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@boarder2020, If your numbers are correct then that's $17.2bn of lost revenue that in it's own is incredibly significant around 40% of total tourism revenue. Can they survive losing that much revenue, we will see.
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boarder2020 wrote:
The risk of death from covid for young healthy people is extremely low. The measures are in place for the vulnerable people.

So I think this one questionable/debatable area. People who are high risk to Covid are high risk to all manner of bugs and viruses - many of which would could be fatal in their condition. Covid is just another on the list. Maybe a bit of extra shielding/vigilance is required but I think it's about what is proportionate. And anyhow is incumbent on those involved to take the action. For example if I am living with a high risk person I should forego my ski trip or if I have a close relative who is a high risk I should forego seeing them. Aren't blanket measures disproportionate?

boarder2020 wrote:
Yes it's possible to do a low risk ski trip, however there is still some risk involved.

Well indeed but lots of things we are doing domestically carry some risk and are strictly speaking unnecessary. Most people seem to agree that school is near the top of risky activity that we need to undertake. But beyond that everything is kind of up for grabs. I coach and participate in a an indoor team sport. We have been given the green light to recommence. Other than leisure centre's potentially going out of business, strictly speaking there is no good reason for it. There are other ways to exercise. But again it's about proportionality. And I get if someone gets it and someone has long term health issues or dies as a result we might all regret it. But then there were two new reported cases in Milton Keynes yesterday.

boarder2020 wrote:
I don't think being asked to miss one winter of skiing is a particular hardship.

Didn't they lose a bit of last season and the summer season already. And against it's a question of proportion isn't it.

Ultimately there are lots of things I could theoretically live without.
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James77 wrote:
@boarder2020, If your numbers are correct then that's $17.2bn of lost revenue that in it's own is incredibly significant around 40% of total tourism revenue. Can they survive losing that much revenue, we will see.

But this needs to be offset by the reduction in overseas travel. Pre-Covid there were something like 300,000 monhly tourism arrivals in NZ, but also around 250,000 overseas trips by NZ residents. If the latter group now spend their vacation money at home the net effect might be only around one sixth of this, say $3bn. In the context of a GDP of around $70bn, that is significant but not necessarily disastrous.

There will be similar offsetting effects in many countries, with mainly the airline/transport sectors losing out
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