 Poster: A snowHead
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OK, so now it seems we have eight tiers of people in SCGB groups?
1. Chair and CEO
2. Council
3. Employed Staff
4. Leaders
5. Reps
6. Seasonaires
7. Members with 20+ years of membership and at least 3 trips per season
8. Mere holiday skiers
Really makes me want to join up...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| To be fair 50% of them were women, especially those guarding the canapés from Scgb mere holiday skiers |
Just out of interest when was that?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| To be fair 50% of them were women, especially those guarding the canapés from Scgb mere holiday skiers |
Just out of interest when was that? |
March 2017
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@On the rocks, I suspect I know who you are talking about. That venue is now the foundations of a new hotel. If you come to Tignes again the social hour is at the Cave du Loop and all members get a chance at the food. I make sure of it, whilst politely trying to keep others out of it. Whilst I do not offer to ski with anybody, I do spend a lot of time offering advice, as i do on here. But I now ski regularly with people I have met through ILG.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
not the grumpy old men referred to the other day!
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I'm not always that grumpy! 
ILG days were run for different levels of skiers on different days . Ranging from intro to off-piste, to days that involved skinning and hiking. As an aside, I don't think that I've encountered a more realistic avi search practice prior to skiing. New Gen's Jerome certainly knows how (and where) to bury a bag. A bit of touring will find a weak link if there is one.
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Having come to skiing from a climbing background I was often dismayed at the SCGB approach to avalanche safety on leader days when I used to regularly participate in Argentiere. Transceivers were handed out to participants and told how to switch them on. There was no appreciation of skiers' ability to know how to use the model they were issued with, nor how to use them in a search should the worst happen and the leader or guide get wiped out. The follow the leader approach seemed to do little to foster the self reliance and mountain awareness I would expect of mates (particularly climbing mates) on a peer type skiing day, very occasionally a leader may have, for example, pointed out why they were avoiding a convex slope.
At least on Freshtracks holidays transceiver practice is a required part of the week, but I found the exercises on my FT holidays fell far short of Snoworks in terms of simulating a real incident.
The time is past now but I think it would have been better if the leaders had done more to foster self reliance amongst their members, but this may have gone against the Leader/Punter model.
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| @GeorgeVII, do you not see that as being part of the problem though? The SCGB almost certainly paid a reduced rate for the guide and instructor, but £60 in total from 3 people means it is always running at a severe loss and the more people use it, the more the club loses. The ILG with a group of 4 would also result in a loss - they probably can't break even on any of them, even if 6 people turned up. |
Absolutely. Reminds me of a broken welfare system circa 1970s. Some of us really don't like the idea that others are subsidising our skiing. All feels a bit grubby somehow - it's a comparatively affluent sport, if you want something and can afford it go and pay for it. If not, save up.
But never mind, those Leaders who agreed through gritted teeth that they would support the club and pay for some of their own expenses this season, probably won't when it really comes down to it. What would you do? Book and pay for your own carefree ski trip or pay to go and work? It's been handled pathetically - I'd say they can have their freebie if they actively go out and promote the club and sign up X new members. You know, like they used to! Quid pro quo Clarice.
I've had a look at the new virtual Ski+Board. I'm confused, it's just another website, one that is doing what the main website should be doing on an ongoing basis, like being updated consistently - keeping us interested, giving us news etc. Only now they have created another URL just to confuse and annoy Google. Even major Global corporations like Apple manage to run absolutely everything under one URL apple.com with /uk or /fr etc. And you need a log in to access the virtual Ski+Board which begs the questions How many are going to bother? What's the big secret? and Why, when you've gone to the trouble to create original content? - surely they want all skiers to make it their first port of call for anything ski related - then, assuming they can present some real compelling USPs, want to join up. It's now like some kind of secret dark web society, or the Masons.
The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
In danger of being the doctor turning up with the livesaving treatment long after the corpse has been buried and the last mourners are leaving the wake?
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| Pruman wrote: |
| ... I've had a look at the new virtual Ski+Board. I'm confused, it's just another website .... surely they want all skiers to make it their first port of call for anything ski related - then, assuming they can present some real compelling USPs, want to join up. It's now like some kind of secret dark web society, or the Masons.... |
That's the same mind-set which enabled this site to exist and flourish. I guess they're going to make the same mistake over and over until the money runs out. I wonder if it's not a state of mind which comes from being in a relatively powerful position: they don't expect to need to have to fight for it like everyone else does.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nothing wrong with Ski+Board having some good stuff behind a log-in, and so available to subscribing members only. But absolutely agree it should be on the main site. And (for the whole site as well) there should be enough attractive free material to tempt everyone to look at the site, PLUS an indication that there is much more available if you join...
Say:
- Ski+Board: opening paragraph of articles available to all, full article to members only (which is how many newspapers now work)
- snow reports: current year to all, past years to members only (AND an indication to all that it is all there; you just have to sign-up...)
- resorts: summary details to all, but full details to members only
etc.
It may be that this is how it works at the moment, but I don't find many links that say "this content available to members only....". So as a non-member there is nothing much on the website that tempts me to join... (In fact, rather the opposite: e.g. it advertises "up to 24 season's worth of snow data", but as I can see only 2018-19, it appears to just not live up to the hype).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| ... I've had a look at the new virtual Ski+Board. I'm confused, it's just another website .... surely they want all skiers to make it their first port of call for anything ski related - then, assuming they can present some real compelling USPs, want to join up. It's now like some kind of secret dark web society, or the Masons.... |
That's the same mind-set which enabled this site to exist and flourish. I guess they're going to make the same mistake over and over until the money runs out. I wonder if it's not a state of mind which comes from being in a relatively powerful position: they don't expect to need to have to fight for it like everyone else does. |
Except if they intended that only members could access it, they've failed. If you try and access Ski+Board it says: "As Ski+board is a Member benefit you will need a password to access this. You can find this password in your Ski Club locker." I left the Club at the end of April, but still have a login. On the off-chance, I logged in and had a look in my "locker" and what should I find but the (not very imaginative) member password for Ski+Board.
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You don't need to be a paying member to access Ski+Board, just signed up to the website.
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You know it makes sense.
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Out of idle curiosity, I just e-thumbed through one of the free back copies of S+B. One article which related directly to snowboarding, about how Slopestyle snowboarders are at the highest risk of injury. Not one other snowboard related article or advert in the rest of the thing. I think the last time I did the same thing (albeit in the paper-form) I had exactly the same experience, although I think it was an article about How to try snowboarding for a day or something of that ilk.
I should be these guys key demographic, years of Snowsports experience, family of winters ports enthusiasts, consistently hitting the French resorts twice a season. But I cannot for the life of me find anything they can offer me as a snowboarder.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
I should be these guys key demographic, |
clearly not in their demographic then...
I must admit that as a skier I don't find S&B interesting or engaging, maybe its not really 'snow sports' which are key....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| ... One article which related directly to snowboarding, about how Slopestyle snowboarders are at the highest risk of injury.... |
April 2018 may be the one to which you refer.
I looked quickly at the images which had easily recognisable skiers or snowboarders in them and counted 27 skiers and 1 snowboarder,
although the snowboarder's used to illustrate an article explaining that snowboarding's dangerous.
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| ...I should be these guys key demographic, years of Snowsports experience, family of winters ports enthusiasts, consistently hitting the French resorts twice a season. .... |
| bob wrote: |
| ...clearly not in their demographic then... |
In which case they are at best completely confused about their market.
The name of the publication is "ski and board", but this copy at least "doesn't do boarding" and that's no accident.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let's be honest the SCGB never really did or got snowboarding. Didn't really fit with the reactionary attitudes of some of their older cohort at the time (let's say the 90s when snowboarding really became a mass market thing) and snowboarders' inclinition to JFDI and get into what they wanted. Then of course things like SCUK (& formerly AdrenalinTrip) eventually emerged as both digital hubs and real world clubs with their own discount offers etc on a fraction of the overhead of SCGB.
On the odd occasion I've flipped through a copy of Ski & Board, the tokenism of the latter is abundantly clear, notwithstanding that they may at times have employed young people who snowboarded at times in the editorial team.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 1-07-20 17:58; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Let's be honest the SCGB never really did or got snowboarding
....notwithstanding that they may at times have employed young people who snowboarded at times in the editorial team. |
TV Smith: "the mistake was fighting the change, was staying the same."
If the scgb have not accommodated something which happened 40 years ago,
perhaps one could deduce something about their ability to deal with change.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
In danger of being the doctor turning up with the livesaving treatment long after the corpse has been buried and the last mourners are leaving the wake? |
I think the memorial service is over as well. The graphs are all pointing the wrong way, the HQ staff don't care, the Reps are revolting (couldn't resist that but wait til they have to start shelling out hard cash to go and rep), Members are mostly ambivalent or deserting, the websites are unloved, the French hate it, snowboarders are discriminated against, they can't even get minutes of the AGM out or a report on the debacle. If it was a sick old cat you'd be down at the vets doing the deed by now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think they have been surviving on the sale proceeds of their prev grand HQ in Eaton Square, Belgravia, 20+ years ago. Trouble is, it's not a bottomless pit...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@stephen buck, Whilst there's still a bit of cash left to be wasted then there's no impetus for change. If anything those left are now trying to bleed the corpse for themselves at the expense of others. It's a grossly overstaffed and over expensed business which has no prospect of ever getting back to break even. It has no product to 'sell' any more. The cash reserves will be gone soon, and then that's it.
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| Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
Now laughably late + a laughable week.
And the AGM minutes? I do minutes for a board I sit on and I do them and distribute them same night while it's all still fresh. 7 months or more is a bit of a wee wee take.
Latest 'news' on the club website? 28th April.
Have they all just given up?
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| Pruman wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
Now laughably late + a laughable week.
And the AGM minutes? I do minutes for a board I sit on and I do them and distribute them same night while it's all still fresh. 7 months or more is a bit of a wee wee take.
Latest 'news' on the club website? 28th April.
Have they all just given up? |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Any advice on alternatives to the SCGB insurance, for those considering leaving the club, which might offer equal or better cover for off-piste and several weeks per season?
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| Claireflannigan wrote: |
| Any advice on alternatives to the SCGB insurance, for those considering leaving the club, which might offer equal or better cover for off-piste and several weeks per season? |
Normally I'd say MPI. At the moment I think many people will be waiting to see what Covid cover the different companies give.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Virgin Money annual multi-trip cover includes off-piste, and can cover 10, 17 or 24 days depending on the level of cover you choose (red, silver, and gold/black). If you will be on skiing holidays for more than 24 days in a year, then season cover is likely to be a better approach. The policy wording is available online, but the relevant section is:
| Quote: |
T6 – Winter sports activities
The below are those activities that we classify as winter sports activities.
What you are covered for:
Bobsleighing*, cat skiing, cross country skiing, freestyle skiing*, glacier walking or trekking (under 2000m), glacier walking or trekking (over 2000m but under 6000m)*, heli-skiing*, ice climbing under 100m (fully supervised)*, ice fishing, ice hockey*, lugeing on snow/ice*, monoskiing, off piste skiing/snowboarding (except in areas considered to be unsafe by resort management), recreational ski or snowboard racing, skeletons*, ski acrobatics*, ski bob racing*, ski racing or training (nonprofessional)*, ski stunting*, ski touring (with a guide), ski/snowboard fun parks*, skiing, snow mobiling*, snowboarding and tobogganing.
Special condition which applies to section T6
Under this policy you must:
1. You must always adopt and follow the appropriate and recommended safety precautions when undertaking any winter sport activity inclusive of, but not limited to, the
wearing of a safety helmet.
Special exclusions which apply to section T6
We will not cover the following:
1. The excess shown in the table of benefits on pages 8 and 9.
2. For those activities in the above list marked with * an increased medical excess of £250 applies and cover under the Personal accident and Personal liability sections does not apply.
3. No cover is provided for you taking part in any of the following winter sport activities: Ski flying, ski jumping or ski mountaineering |
They have temporarily suspended new insurance sales due to Covid-19, but to give you an idea of the cost, my annual multi-trip Silver family cover was around £90. I've made one claim in 5 years, and it was settled in full with minimal hassle, including a refund of unused days on a season pass for the time when I was injured, which I calculated based on my planned skiing days for the season and they accepted without question.
Note the explicit requirement to wear a helmet...
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Thanks all!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Claireflannigan, there is a threadin the piste section on insurance that covers Corona virus.
Eg I'm going with BA insurance for Corona cover but the ski section is lacking in detail.
However, I would be more worried about Corona than a ski accident right now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
Here's a bit of a non-update. Last weekend I was told that the report was written and "just being proof read", which, somewhat naively, I took to mean the publication was imminent - but I suspect "proof read" was code for "it's with the lawyers". In which case, there's another bill the club could do without. Not far off 3 months late now.
While waiting, the Fresh Tracks offer came out and I couldn't help but compare pricing of Fresh Tracks v the 'bash' prices available on this site to the same destinations. There are a few differences – Fresh Track includes flights but no lift passes and Snow Heads seems to include lift passes but no flights so one probably almost cancels the other one out. So, just looking at the headline prices per person:
Tignes 5-12 December
Fresh Tracks £1325
Snow Heads £555
Serre Chevalier Off Piste week:
Fresh Tracks (January) £1799
Snow Heads (March) £919
The Snow Heads accommodation choices look good to me so it's not a question of a 'cheaper product' - so how come the club can't compete?
Check the others out. Some prices seem completely off the charts to me - https://www.skiclub.co.uk/news/ski-club-news/2020/07/top-10-freshtracks-holidays-you-should-book-this-season
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But with Fresh Tracks one rubs shoulders with a better class of clientele and one can have interesting conversations about the commoners who can only afford to go on things called 'bashes' and probably don't even have a nanny to take care of 'the sprogs'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pruman, thank you for your complimentary comments about the snowHeads bashes as I work hard to make them as good value as I possibly can. But although, on the surface, your examples may seem like for like, it's probably not really a fair comparison and generally, trying to draw comparisons, whatever the underlying motive, only leads to bickering about who is better or otherwise.
I've never actually been on a SCGB trip myself (although I nearly did a couple of times) but those I've spoken to, who have experienced both, say there is little to compare between SCGB weeks and snowHeads bashes... It's certainly fair to say that while a small cohort seems to flit back and forth happily enjoying both, for the most part they cater to quite different tastes and expectations.
And frankly, I'm happy with it that way! Yes there are some who appear preoccupied with the notion of competition between snowHeads and the SCGB, but really there's very little meaningful crossover between our activities. I can't speak for the Tea Club themselves (perhaps they are secretly in fierce competition with us  ) but most snowHeads I know are far too busy having fun being snowHeads to waste a thought on being the Anti-Ski-Club-of-Great-Britain-Club 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pruman, Flights are usually much cheaper than ski passes.
I've never been with Freshtracks, but as @esaw1 points out, they seem like different products for different folks.
On bashes you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. You must be cautious!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I kinda like it that Freshtracks price so high - keeps the riff raff out and ensures good chaps on a freebie can be taken care of while still making a handsome profit.....
...thumbs accounts.....
.....erm
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Fresh tracks holidays always include full time guiding/instruction typically with a ratio of 1:6. As far as I am aware only the off-Piste bash includes this, which if you compare like for like (eg SCGB trips which don't include flights) then the prices are much more similar, as they are with Snoworks which also provides a similar package
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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£1350 plus lift pass for 6 days social skiing (no guide) in Bad Hof?
£1769 inc lift pass for 6 days social in Lenzerheide?
OK no single occ on those but still fairly heady as in approaching catski money.
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| On 29 June Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late. |
| On 6 July Pruman wrote: |
The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late ...
Now laughably late + a laughable week. |
| On 18 July Pruman wrote: |
| The Interim Chairman's report is now laughably late ... Here's a bit of a non-update. Last weekend I was told that the report was written and "just being proof read", which, somewhat naively, I took to mean the publication was imminent - but I suspect "proof read" was code for "it's with the lawyers". |
That is a viable conclusion. The other is that the report has been fed to the family dog.
My own theory is that publication of the report is now being further delayed (to August?) to coincide with an announcement of the SCGB's 2020 AGM, or maybe even delayed further (to October?) to accompany the 2019-20 annual report and accounts. Constitutionally (as I recall) the Club has to give notice (3 months?) of the AGM date and should properly invite members to put themselves forward for election to the board/council.
Very unusually - and I'm not clear of the reason for this - the Club has 4 council members (Andrew Poodle, Bridget Cassey, Dave Davenport, Joanna Milner-Percy) retiring this autumn. In addition, the recently departed Tom Jarman must be replaced.
So quality candidates (in a normal year it would be 2) must be found to fill 5 'ordinary' places on the council, plus (perhaps) another two candidates to stand as chairman and treasurer.
The Club currently has an interim co-opted chairman - Trevor Campbell Davis - who will either stand for election or retire.
The Club currently has no treasurer, since Angus McIver switched from treasurer to CEO.
| Pruman wrote: |
Tignes 5-12 December
Fresh Tracks £1325
Snow Heads £555
Serre Chevalier Off Piste week:
Fresh Tracks (January) £1799
Snow Heads (March) £919 |
I'm no expert in costing or pricing ski holidays, but it must be the usual skill of matching product to pricetag. In a previous role, Angus McIver - new chief executive of the SCGB - was group marketing director of Morrisons supermarkets. For Christmas 2009 he wasn't marketing ski holidays well over £1000 per head - he was selling a "£4 festive meal-deal for four".
If anyone has the skill to flog ski holidays at irrefusable prices, Angus McIver is that person ...
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/morrisons-launches-4-festive-meal-deal-four/973282
| Quote: |
LONDON - Morrisons is attempting to help consumers spread the cost of the Christmas period by launching a £4 festive dinner for four people.
The deal, which saves consumers £8, includes tomato soup, a loin of pork, a seasonal vegetable pack and also trifle. When bought separately the items would be worth £12. Morrisons has rolled out a national press campaign to promote the deal. |
| admin wrote: |
| Yes there are some who appear preoccupied with the notion of competition between snowHeads and the SCGB, but really there's very little meaningful crossover between our activities. |
I would have thought the exact opposite was correct - the crossover of the core activity (a day's sliding on snow) is exactly the same. snowHeads and the SCGB cater for skiers who go to the same resorts, looking to stay in same quality of accommodation, to do pretty much the same things on snow. Both groups are often looking for instruction, and so on.
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| £1350 plus lift pass for 6 days social skiing (no guide) in Bad Hof? |
Had a look at that one ...
https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-holidays/pe---ski-and-spa-1
... as it's to a resort (Bad Hofgastein) that I've visited. The timing is low season (10-17 Jan 2021). The package comprises 7 nights 4-star hotel, half-board, single room, return scheduled BA plus transfer to/from resort. As you've indicated above, you're also paying for a SCGB rep to be with the party.
Stripping that down, I guess one's looking at £200 to £250 for the flights and transfers, so maybe £1100 to £1150 for the room and board (with substantial spa facilities mentioned). That's over £150 per night half-board. Not crazy money, but given that one's got to pay for SCGB membership (£70+) to be privileged enough to pay it ... it doesn't come across as a 'club members'' price.
We're dealing here with a snowHeads -v- SCGB comparison.
Are there any other important factors to consider when comparing the two organisations?
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FAQ
