SCGB Ltd's website isn't built for mobile, but instead of making that a PWA they went for two technology stacks (honeycommb and SiteCore).
Double the update effort. Honeycommb themselves use [free] Netlify for their own web site,
so their product's unlikely to ever replace SCGB Ltd's existing SiteCore systems.
SCGB Ltd have retained their previous "walled garden" approach.
pisteoff wrote:
...the hole the club needs to fill - is a "meet up and ski, meet up and social, info, discounts and events in resort" phone accessed Club resource.
The app doesn't seem to offer this functionality yet ...
I don't know.
I see a company trying to improve their web presence [a good thing], but it's not clear to me how they have addressed the factors which led them to fail the previous time they tried that.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Oh so they did implement BaseGrindr from p27. Hooray!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Richard_Sideways, I think your kind are safe from being subsumed into the SCGB digital strategy. When they talk about diversity I think they mean having a few token non white faces not having snowboardists as an active part of their community.
you yourself haven't engaged directly with the bashes for what, 15 years, and yet here you are with almost 17,000 posts to your name. Unless you have an unhealthy vicarious interest in other peoples holidays, I would suggest there is something else going on here that keeps you engaged, non?
Yes, it is an open ski forum intended to replace the SCGB forum, so a place to discuss skiing. You either run it like that or you put it behind a paywall, up to you.
Indeed - to replace the one that they put behind a paywall. It's surely pretty obvious that, even from then, there was no attempt to shape snowHeads in the image of the SCGB, either in style or content. OTOH though, there are some very clear examples of SCGB imitating, copying or even trying to outright hijack our activities or erm name ... somewhat impolite.
Quote:
I didn't realise we now had to "engage with bashes" to use the forum.
Of course you don't
You seem somehow to have inferred the opposite of my intended meaning here.
Quote:
I like to help people with some useful information now and again.
That was exactly my point. Your previous comment seemed to reduce snowHeads to 'a holiday club'. I'm saying that the fact you, and so many other snowHeads, engage so extensively and positively with each other whilst having little if anything to do with the holidays, proves there is more to snowHeads than that.
Many times more snowHeads engage productively with the forum than come on the bashes - and IMV that's a very good thing
Even in this past year, when barely a snowHead could ski, this community has remained active, (mostly) friendly and helpful. The variety and depth of the advice shared here is truly mind-boggling at times
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@BobinCH, that pic you posted that they've used on the Gurgl piece isn't even in Austria, let alone Gurgl Looks like France. Plus, their idea of 'News' is a paid-for promotion.
davidof wrote:
Pruman wrote:
The Opportunities are out there but your Council looks to be incapable of going after them.
Clearly they are not out there etc
By opportunities I mean that there are circa 1m skiers in the UK (The Club's own research even put it at 1.4m) - so, that means there are 984,000 skiers out there who aren't members of their national ski club, but could be. The Club has amassed 1.6% of its potential market after 118 years of trying. Hopeless. Mr Goldsmith has published a graph on Facebook showing the decline in members going back 12 years. It's surprisingly steadily downwards and some would say steep!
Gerry wrote:
@Pruman, we don’t need visas so why should I deflect?
Well you keep on saying it therefore part of my brain tells me not to trust the answer.
I have just spent some time looking into it for you. You claim to be an unpaid volunteer (even though a French court disagrees) and I see you will be repping in Flaine, France.
This is what the French Government say: https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/ and I suggest you start there and pay attention to https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/salaried-employment
If you think you count as a 'volunteer' you're not:
Quote:
Visas can be issued for the purposes of volunteering. There are three types of volunteering: civic service, association-based volunteer work and European Voluntary Service (EVS).
If part of the European Voluntary Service (EVS), you will receive a temporary long-stay visa (VLS-T) marked “Volunteer”.
For the other categories of volunteering, different types of visa will be issued based on how long you will be volunteering
So, even those 'real volunteers' doing EVS are required to have a visa. Your idea of volunteering isn't their idea of volunteering old bean. You are there working for a commercial organisation for which you are remunerated via benefits in kind - an employee in the eyes of the French. Furthermore you are currently a Director of the Ltd company selling the services so "Not me Guv" butters no parsnips. In your case, you now claim to be an EU citizen, but your 'employer' is a UK company. I think, regardless of your passport, you need a working visa - you're not registered for work in France. Someone will pop up and correct me if I'm wrong - which is possible because it seems complex, and why the club needs a professional legal opinion.
And again, who are your 'relevant authorities'? If it's someone in a tourism capacity, their opinion isn't relevant. If you are reassuring other Reps with this loose 'relevant authorities' thing then you really are doing them a disservice.
Gerry wrote:
Very hard for me to make meetings going forward, what with my new work commitments, so I’ve offered to step down early.
Oh dear, turning up on Zoom once every two months got a bit tiring did it?
I don't know why but this kind of announcement reminds me of Sir Norman Fry:
I see a company trying to improve their web presence [a good thing], but it's not clear to me how they have addressed the factors which led them to fail the previous time they tried that.
I was always told skiclub.co.uk used to rank top against all the other ski websites. I don't have the analytical tools at my disposal save for the likes of Alexa, but it appears to me that it has dropped out of sight. A combination of not being kept fresh and updated and confusing Google by having other URLs, like for the magazine, insurance, chat (ex chat) etc.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Pruman, If I'm at work, or driving back from work, I can't really be expected to attend a zoom meeting. Meetings now start at 5pm but I now work until about 5:30 then I have about a 90minute drive. Also subcommittee meetings are starting about 3:30pm.
Now, on the visa/volunteering thing, you must have missed this bit:
Quote:
/Pruman
For example, the Austrian Federal Ministry of Labour have cleared us to visit their wonderful mountains without the need for visas.
My Flaine trip is a package holiday that starts in the UK, so no need for a work visa for that because:
Quote:
Which business activities are permitted during short-term visits to the EU?
The TCA sets out a list of the business activities that are generally permitted for short term visits to the EU.
These include:
Tourism personnel attending or participating in conventions or accompanying a tour that has begun in the UK
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
So, in your view, the "Rep" would be ok, (At least in Austria), so long as they were booked as a member of that package tour?
How do you extend that to having "reps" in resort for more that 1 or 2 weeks "packages"?
or in the rest of the EU?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@brianatab, two ways of repping for the Ski Club.
1. Taking a holiday group out from the UK.
2. Being a resort rep for a few weeks.
Both have been confirmed as not requiring working visas by the relevant authorities in all the countries we go to.
Do you think admin will be ok running his bashes? Pruman is being very industrious in his attempts to prove admin will need a working visa.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Gerry says that the Flaine trip starts in the UK. In fact it is a package that does not include travel from the UK but starts at Geneva airport where the rep meets guests and escorts them by coach to the resort.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
@BobinCH, that pic you posted that they've used on the Gurgl piece isn't even in Austria, let alone Gurgl Looks like France. Plus, their idea of 'News' is a paid-for promotion.
It's VT isn't it? Pictures from a bash
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
musher wrote:
Quote:
@BobinCH, that pic you posted that they've used on the Gurgl piece isn't even in Austria, let alone Gurgl Looks like France. Plus, their idea of 'News' is a paid-for promotion.
It's VT isn't it? Pictures from a bash
Oh dear. Who’s going to tell TM Tony?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Jehu wrote:
Gerry says that the Flaine trip starts in the UK. In fact it is a package that does not include travel from the UK but starts at Geneva airport where the rep meets guests and escorts them by coach to the resort.
Yes, AFAIK Gerry is going for two weeks. That means he isn't escorting the trip because most members will go out for a week. He is effectively stationed out there. Plus I thoght Reps travelled by train to save the planet, whereas the members probably fly. I have consulted with some 'relevant authorities' (but I'm not telling you who they are in case you laugh) and I stand by the view that SCGB Reps will need working visas if they have accurately described the job role. Not my problem.
So, Gerry is standing down early as a Director (pushed? cajouled? what?). Perhaps a good time then to warmly thank him for his service and analyse his achievments over two stints of membership stagnation/decline and worsening financial performance.
A search reveals this from a certain David/Davina Goldballs:
1. GA stated the case for increased SCGB representation in the mountains in his inaugural electoral address to SCGB members in 2005, as a route to increased membership. Has this recruitment resulted? Recent SCGB membership figures appear to be faked at “29,000”, “30,000” etc. The clear statistical evidence prior to 2005 was that the more the SCGB spent on repping, the fewer the new members recruited in the mountains (a fall of over 70% in annual new member recruitment by reps, over 19 years from 1992 (1108 new members) to 2011 (229 new members) - against a huge increase in expenditure). The figure for 2005 (which GA could have used as a benchmark) was 699 new members.
2. New media. Gerry Aitken was chairman of the New Media Task Group, and the SCGB was reportedly investing £100,000 p.a. in website improvements. Was this money productively spent?
3. Social media. The SCGB's public chat forum, following its 9-year shut down from 2004, has extremely low traffic - compared to its huge success in 2002-4. Was GA a supporter of excluding the public, or an opponent? What work has he done to restore the SCGB's vital need for popularity in social media? The open public forum was enormously popular – thousands of participants, hundreds of postings daily - and cost the Club virtually nothing to operate.
4. News coverage. GA personally promised in 2006, as chairman of the New Media Task Group, that the SCGB would have the best news generation in the UK. This has not materialised. Is there a reason for this?
5. Verbier Challenge Cup. A SCGB event which GA helped organise. This, and the more famous Luttmann Johnson SCGB race in Zermatt, have vanished. Given these cuts, the slump in new member recruitment, the withdrawal of SCGB reps from proficiency-testing of skiers, the obsolescence of the SCGB snow reporting, how is the huge cost of SCGB repping justified? Especially the cost of SCGB ‘ambassadors’ in France?
6. The SCGB Environmental Fund. As things stand, c.£60,000 of this c.£100,000 fund is unaccounted for. Concerns have been expressed (since 2006) about the administration of this fund and the absence of annual accounting. This matter has been raised time and time again. What has GA personally done about this?
7. Vanessa Mae is the cover star of the current issue of the SCGB magazine. GA defended this, on the basis that the FIS/IOC did not know about her misdemeanours (faked race results) prior to the Sochi Olympics. But the SCGB magazine was worked on 6 months after those Olympics, and well after Mae was under investigation. Does GA concede that a publishing/editorial error was made here?
8. False snow reports repeatedly published for Scottish ski areas – wrong snow depths, apparently guessed – and mountains repeatedly reported “closed” all weekend, when they are open. This has continued over 3 seasons to 2014-5. What is GA’s position on this?
9. The SCGB’s long history of promoting or directly selling ski helmets, based on false information about head injuries, and its recent statement that everyone should be wearing helmets. What is GA's position on helmets, and what truths the SCGB should be saying to skiers?
10. The array of false audience information – statistics – published to sell Ski Club TV video advertising [“Ski TV is watched by 33,500 subscribers”, Nov 2011], SCGB magazine advertising (incorrect ABC audit data recently published) and website advertising [“2 million unique users per annum” – 2013 SCGB media pack] and so on. Does GA have a position on the SCGB's trading standards/ethics?
Some of those questions are still relevant, like the environmental fund, given that it is COP26 time.
Number 4 is interesting - how did the media side of things go then?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Pruman, Never mind that - clearly we want the full disclosure on Big Helmet (co-incidentally also @gerry's Grindr tag)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Gerry wrote:
@Pruman, we don’t need visas so why should I deflect?
Very hard for me to make meetings going forward, what with my new work commitments, so I’ve offered to step down early.
Well I hope not, you've engaged on forums which is important for Ski Club council in my view, and can champion what the club does and can do ... and perhaps be a voice for positive change? Without this things become far too inward looking and protective. However I dare say you may find TCD only too happy to accept your generous offer.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
BobinCH wrote:
Did they Trademark Ski Con of Great Britain?
Clicked on the news menu and the first link is an article on Gurgl
Where do I sign up?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
...[SCGB Director [moderator - name edited to snowheads username] Gerry] engaged on forums which is important for Ski Club council in my view....
The other day in this thread [moderator - name edited to snowheads username] Gerry threatened apparently vexatious legal action in this very thread. If that's "engagement", then Trademark Tony's attempted passing off is... what, "new product development"?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
philwig wrote:
pisteoff wrote:
...[SCGB Director gerald Aitken] engaged on forums which is important for Ski Club council in my view....
The other day in this thread Gerald threatened apparently vexatious legal action in this very thread.
Why was that then? Threats are nothing new, allegedly.
philwig wrote:
… If that's "engagement", then Trademark Tony's attempted passing off is... what, "new product development"?
Very hard for me to make meetings going forward, what with my new work commitments, so I’ve offered to step down early.
I dare say you may find TCD only too happy to accept your generous offer.
Oh, quelle surprise! The Secrets Dept working in conjunction with the Censorship Dept will love it too. TCD sounds like a right control freak.
Regarding the snowy 'chocolate box' high rise wastes of Val Th'obergurgl, I can see what they are doing there - a multi-purpose resort to maximise sales and confuse the working visa police. Another genius move from TT.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Pruman, Xmas is coming up so I thought you might find this useful.
Anyway, nicely deflected. One day you'll actually answer something. So, as you are still a current Director, why aren't the Report and Accounts being produced in the normal way this year? Being "presented during the meeting" rather than circulated beforehand. What's to hide?
Got your working visa sorted yet?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Pruman,
Nevermind. Members can pre-script their questions anyway and then tailor them to the data.
Why are you boasting of a surplus when that is a operating loss for a year in which you had member revenues but no costs of serving them, the benefit of govt furlough support and only investment returns covered your operating loss? There will be years when there are investment losses - they can't be relied on.
Why can't Freshtracks run its own P&L without subsidy? If it is unprofitable then kill it. You can always negotiate member exclusive holidays with a third party.
How much uptake and activity is there on the member app? Remember if people use it once and it's tumbleweed chances of it being used again decrease cf the chat forum?
Why Trademark Tony was trusted and had the mandate to do TM work despite his apparent colossal inability to distinguish between organisations?
Why the threats and demands on independent Faceache groups?
Do you feel the secrecy and omerta is appropriate and attractive to U50s?
For that matter how are you planning to replace members who age out - headed toward an over 60s ski club?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Tour Operators often gave (maybe even still give!) SCGB members 10% discount on their mainline products. If Freshtrax is stale and not performing, why not close it and do a deal with a specialist retail agent for a discount (not necessarily 10%) off the holiday cost with an incentive kickback (which the agent negotiates with the tour ops) to Club funds dependant on reaching a target after season end?
SCGB would get some income with no admin costs other than saying "book your ski holiday with XYZ trvel agent".
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Nemisis, A specialist, you say?
Quote:
…
SCGB would get some income with @admin
FIFY
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@AL9000,
Well, I was thinking along the lines of "no costs to offset against the income" but if @admin wants to stick his head up above the parapet. . . .
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Pruman,
Nevermind. Members can pre-script their questions anyway and then tailor them to the data.
Why are you boasting of a surplus when that is a operating loss for a year in which you had member revenues but no costs of serving them, the benefit of govt furlough support and only investment returns covered your operating loss? There will be years when there are investment losses - they can't be relied on.
Why can't Freshtracks run its own P&L without subsidy? If it is unprofitable then kill it. You can always negotiate member exclusive holidays with a third party.
How much uptake and activity is there on the member app? Remember if people use it once and it's tumbleweed chances of it being used again decrease cf the chat forum?
Why Trademark Tony was trusted and had the mandate to do TM work despite his apparent colossal inability to distinguish between organisations?
Why the threats and demands on independent Faceache groups?
Do you feel the secrecy and omerta is appropriate and attractive to U50s?
For that matter how are you planning to replace members who age out - headed toward an over 60s ski club?
Can't argue with any of that. The first question re boasting of a surplus is the elephant on ze piste.
Nemisis wrote:
If Freshtrax is stale and not performing, why not close it and do a deal with a specialist retail agent for a discount
Because the Reps wouldn't get their fix of freeloading that way and, effectively, SCGB would become just another ski booking agent and be in competition with a ton of other lower overhead / lower margin dudes. And directly in competition with the likes of Crystal, Inghams, etc who really like to sell direct and cut out the middle (wo)man
The issues are (1) Overheads (2) Rep costs (3) small program spread far too thinly among many second tier resorts (the many resorts required to satisfy Rep demands probably).
If they just concentrated hard on half a dozen top resorts and created experiences you can't easily buy elsewhere, they'd stand a chance (not a big chance, but a chance nontheless) of making money.
IMV 2-3,000 heads across a 20 week season requires no more than 6 resorts. But that would mean culling Reps and turkeys don't generally vote for Christmas.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
That's a good point: their scale is a function of their "Rep demands" , not the demands of their business. Oops.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Pruman, Nail on head. It's still just a jobs from the boys club desperately clinging to the overstaffed HQ and Reps perks, in the face of alarming losses. The new boy's job seems to be to cover up the loss as much as possible rather than actually doing anything about it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@eblunt, well the proof will be in the pudding; percentage of places sold on Freshtracks holidays. The business model is very similar to Snoworks but with a much wider choice of resorts and dates, more diverse quality of instructors/guides, tail end Charlie’s and a much more extensive and expensive management overhead . Snoworks generally gets sold out early and Freshtracks has previously had a high take up rate. Let’s see how price hikes, state of the economy vs pent-up demand and lack of competition pans out.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@On the rocks,
Not sure the business model is anything like snoworks.
Look forward to comments from others who have experienced both.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@stewart woodward, I’ve done a number of Snoworks and Freshtracks holidays, all off piste. Although there are differences they are often not too significant. I’ve also met several skiers who alternate between the two.
@On the rocks, the AGM pack indicates '1000' freshtracks places sold. Dunno what the total # of places is... but that represents a sizeable turnover. hopefully some margin in there....
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@hamilton,
Looking at SCGB's entry on the ATOL summary, they appear to be licenced to sell 500 holidays.
Maybe they applied for 500, have sold 1,000 of which 500 are within ATOL, the other 500 being legitimately outside the scope of ATOL?
Let's hope that nobody is thinking that they can play fast and loose with ATOL in the same way that they can with trade marks.
Caveat: I never really understood the finer points of ATOL applications, just that they are an indication of the company's stability and a guarantee that things will work out if the tourop fails.
I think ATOL only covers the holidays using Air travel. Many of their holidays only include transfer, accommodation and tuition. They look like a a good product for the well heeled.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
It must be difficult to fill the multitude of offerings of dates, location and courses. Partially filled courses/ accommodation are unlikely to be profitable. My thought would be to reduce the offerings, concentrate the demand and take options out on accommodation, arrange local teachers /guides for those events. Holidays without flights would be best covered by ABTA bonding
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Lechbob, most (all?) Freshtracks holidays do use local guides and instructors
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
stewart woodward wrote:
@On the rocks,
Not sure the business model is anything like snoworks.
Look forward to comments from others who have experienced both.
Have done quite a few of both. That doesn't necessarily give insight into the respective business models, but from the perspective of the punter there is a fair degree of overlap. Snoworks are always focussed on tuition - either half day or full day whereas Freshtracks offer lots of holidays that are simply about social skiing either on or off piste (the latter guided). I would say Snoworks clients tend to be younger but there are lots who do both.
Looks like lots of the Freshtracks holidays have already sold out for this season, which is a good sign
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Happy days - if they've sold out so quickly they can lay off most of the staff and only employ them for the busy sales season
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
... somewhat impolite.
