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Dorsiflex and Ramp Angle

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This weekend I have swapped between my all mountain resort setup which is a Salomon Q98 with Marker Squire bindings, and my touring / off piste setup, Scott Superguides with Marker Kingpins, both using my Salomon Quest Max 130 boots with tech sole option fitted.

The q98 to me feels natural, and when transitioning to the touring setup I immediately felt like I had more weight on the heel and as if the heel was higher. It really threw my balance and technique off. I’ve measured both sole heights with the boots in both setups and it turns out the kingpin positions the toe of the boot around 3mm lower than the squire, all else seems to be the same.

Having had a quick look online at fore aft balance and boot and ramp angles has led me to measure my dorsiflex, which seems to give up to 22 degrees of movement from 90 degrees. This seems to be at the higher end of the spectrum from what I’ve read.

Does anybody more knowledgable than I am know what I should be looking to try to aim to find a more balanced arrangement on the touring setup? Do I simply fix a 3mm shim under the kingpin toe binding? Does my dorsiflex mean I should do something else, and should I look at boot sole and shin angles also? I am potentially thinking of going to a touring boot sometime soon for the weight saving and greater range of motion.

I have in the past been told I don’t extend and straighten my body as much as I should which leads to being in the back seat when tired. Perhaps there is a connection between this and my greater than average joint mobility? Should I be using different boot angles to combat I wonder.

Cheers!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Assuming that your bindings are mounted 'on the line' on both skis then I'm sure that it's not a fore/aft mounting position issue as the mounting location on both of those makes/models of skis are bang on with no known issues etc. And you don't have a dorsiflexion issue either. So as you're using the same boot in both bindings and your Q98's set-up is fine then the only other variable is the delta (ramp) angle of the bindings. And yep, there's a lot more delta angle on the Kingpins than the Squires so yes, just shim the Kingpin toes so that you have matching deltas in both bindings when using the same boot. Many people have to shim their Kingpin toes to reduce the delta to that an alpine binding.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
So I’ve taken some measurements with the boots mounted in the bindings on the skis on a level surface.

Touring Ski: Scott Superguides with Marker Kingpins

Boot toe sole to top of ski 15mm
Boot heel to top of ski 21mm
Angle inside boot footbed with liner removed 6 degrees


All mountain ski: Q98 with Marker Squires

Boot toe sole to top of ski 17.5mm
Boot heel to top of ski 23.5mm
Angle inside boot footbed with liner removed 6 degrees

305mm boots 26.5

This suggests that the angle is exactly the same between setups which is very strange as they felt different. Maybe different snow and terrain gave this perception.

My measurements are taken in the same location on each, but because I have taken them to the soles they show a 6mm ramp to the heel on both and not the 9.7mm I have read Kingpins are supposed to have which is taken from pin location from and rear.

So with both of my setups giving the same angle, the question now is is that angle correct. If the 9.7mm online for the Kingpin is correct then that’s what I should compare. I Wonder if I should try to bring that down to a lesser heel rise as many suggest doing?

I suppose the other thing is whether the boots have excessively angled footbeds which is also bringing the heels up? Puzzled
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Hi Jon

Thanks for the info. You kindly mounted the Kingpins for me a year or so ago, so I’m guessing they are mounted perfectly! What’s strange is that my measurements which are within 1mm or so I would say, show that the two different bindings are at the same relative delta angle. I wonder if this is because I have adjusted the squires to the max to accept the thicker tech/ walk to ride soles I’ve fitted to the boots which has then lowered the toe?

The soles are as per the latter images in this link.

https://www.backcountryskiingcanada.com/web/default/files/pages-image/Salomon_Quest_120_Max_Boots/Salomon-Quest-120-Max-Boots-9.jpg
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@capability, forget trying to measure the angle of the internal boot board (zeppa) in the boot. So long as you're using the same boot in both bindings and that you have the tech soles fitted for both bindings then you have a like-for-like so the only variable left is the difference between the deltas of the two bindings for your specific boot.

However, you need to measure delta from the lowest part of the sole (at both the toe and the heel) to the underside of the ski, not to the topsheet. This removes errors due to the variance in the thickness of the ski along its length which can be significant.

And yes, the Squire's AFD will be lowered right down to accomodate the tech sole so that will increase the delta of the Squire compared to using it with the alpine sole installed. When you said that you've had no issue when skiing the Squire was that with the tech sole installed or the alpine sole?
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Thanks Jon.

Yes the boots used are the same for both setups. I’ve remeasured to the underside of the ski and the measurements are a mm or so different. What’s strange is the sole to sole measurement on the Kingpin is still approx 6mm difference front to back, whereas the measurements online state a 9.7mm difference when measuring to the tech fittings. I know why there is a difference between the two, but which is ‘correct’ difference. The 9.7 or 6mm?

This is the link I’ve been looking at.

https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-up-rise-up-stand-up-for-your-ramp/

I’d like to try a 2/3mm ramp in the rear so will aim to fit shims under the kingpin toe bindings.

Thanks!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
capability wrote:
Thanks Jon.

What’s strange is the sole to sole measurement on the Kingpin is still approx 6mm difference front to back, whereas the measurements online state a 9.7mm difference when measuring to the tech fittings. I know why there is a difference between the two, but which is ‘correct’ difference. The 9.7 or 6mm?......

This is were it gets confusing as both are correct but only one is valid.

The 9.7mm measurement is technically correct as it's the difference between the pin heights at the toe & heel (I know that the Kingpin has an alpine style heel but this is were the pins would have been etc). However, there's so many variations in boot sole types/shapes and the location of the inserts in the boots toe & heel lugs that the 9.7mm dimension becomes meaningless. And, what doesn't help, it that the Wildsnow chart actually has a number of errors in it as well, although the Kingpin entry is ok.

The 6mm measurement is the valid/really useful one at it's the delta angle of the boot in the binding compared to that of the boot when it is sitting on a flat horizontal surface, ie as though you were just standing in the boots on level ground. The boot, when standing on level ground, has zero delta which is 0mm. So when the lowest part of your heel sole in the binding is 6mm further above the base of the ski than the lowest part of the toe sole that gives a positive delta of 6mm (if the toe has higher than the heel then that'd be negative delta) for your boot in that binding on that ski. Now the good thing is that you're happy with your boot/ski/Squire binding set-up so all you have to do is to replicate that delta 6mm on the QST's with the Kingpins.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Thanks Jon. I will go with the 6mm difference as you say, even if this is just a starting point as I may wish to alter from then on.

I’ll DM you re. shims now.

Thanks
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