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Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
NickYoung wrote:
All these businesses saying "we're keeping your money for services we haven't provided, because otherwise we won't have any money".

On what planet do you think it's ok?

It's not your money.

Use YOUR insurance.


As I said it’s unlikely they’ve actually got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s, I guess they cannot give what they have not got and perhaps struggling to get loans given current climate (CBIL, BBLs and other nationality equivalents all have rules as to who they can/will make loans to). I doubt when they publish their report and accounts, whether that be in U.K., France or any other nationality that they’ll be showing any significant “cash in bank” values but have significant “creditors” values.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@NickYoung, Martin Lewis (moneysavingexpert), is clear on this.

Whilst having sympathy for businesses, he says if you can't/don't want to wait for YOUR money/or delay your holiday, go down the chargeback route, but TELL them you are doing it first.

They may suddenly find your money and get it back to you and avoid the costs THEY incur on a chargeback.


Yes - I agree, and probably should have done this first, however, had already started a claim with insurance, although frustratingly getting very little feedback from this so now wondering if we should look into chargeback but not sure if this would be advisable as insurance claim now lodged!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
marcellus wrote:

As I said it’s unlikely they’ve actually got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s, I guess they cannot give what they have not got and perhaps struggling to get loans given current climate (CBIL, BBLs and other nationality equivalents all have rules as to who they can/will make loans to). I doubt when they publish their report and accounts, whether that be in U.K., France or any other nationality that they’ll be showing any significant “cash in bank” values but have significant “creditors” values.


Where's it gone then?

If someone's given them £2k for a holiday where flights haven't been used, no lifts, no ski hire, no accommodation has been paid for - money not spent; why aren't they refunding?

The argument "we paid in advance for accommodation", doesn't wash - the operator should be rclaiming that money (and the operator and accomodation owner using THEIR insurance, not the customer).

The inescapable bottom-line is, if you have received money for a service you haven't provided, refund the customer!
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NickYoung wrote:
flangesax wrote:
In reply to the OP....
The good guys... in general have been my non-arriving guests!

Guests who booked with us and had to cancel due to travel restrictions have been excellent with us and totally understanding of our predicament (as a guest house in Ski Amadé, Austria).

By waiting and chasing up insurance options many cancellations were able to pay their balances and received a refund of their deposits from their insurance companies.

We didn't send out demands (unless requested by the guest to get the insurance flowing) but all of our balances were due to be paid and locked in by contract.

Some guests have already booked for next Easter... hopefully we'll all be sorted by then wink


I assume you mean guests whose booking you couldn't service, have left their money with you and changed to next year. That's great.

If I misunderstand you and you are crowing that you have kept money for bookings you haven't serviced and aren't carrying the bookings forward, then you should keep quiet and hope no-one notices.

I am unaware of where a travel restriction has come in before a business closure, in order to make it the customers insurance problem rather than the holiday providers.


The ski areas shut before some types of accommodation had to close.
We were in a position where all our bookings which were affected fell on a time when our accommodation was not (and didn't have to be) closed.
By this time airlines were not operating reliably and many fights had been cancelled; basically, unless you were from Austria there was no easy way to get to your accommodation.

Our more 'domestic' guests that drive down have chosen to come again next year so, yep they have been wonderful.
Other guests understood our situation and were brilliant and tried hard to recoup the losses their end first; and most successfully so.

Obviously we aren't in any way a big player... only 5 rooms to 'try' to manage wink and at that time of year we didn't have many bookings in place but would have had a lot of last minute skiers taking advantage of the season end... so every/any situation was unique and could be dealt with on a personal level.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 11-05-20 7:38; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Bad guys: Holiday Extras. Tried to cancel Bristol airport parking (as they were cheaper than going direct), they only offered a voucher. Two weeks ago I emailed to say I wanted my money back, I've had no acknowledgement, so I'll be telling them I'll go the "chargeback" route!!!(which will cost them extra).
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marcellus wrote:
As I said it’s unlikely they’ve actually got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s etc etc


Then I hope they go bust. The last thing we need out there are poorly run lifestyle companies playing fast and loose with other peoples' hard earned money (yes, I know some are decent, honest players). The "haven't got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s" brigade operate illegally on more than one front and I'd like to see some prosecutions.

In today's Sunday Times, Mike Gooley the founder of Trailfinders, stated that most properties don't raise an invoice to the operator until the guests have checked out. He's been at it since the early 70s so I believe him.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
lambert wrote:
Bad guys: Holiday Extras. Tried to cancel Bristol airport parking (as they were cheaper than going direct), they only offered a voucher. Two weeks ago I emailed to say I wanted my money back, I've had no acknowledgement, so I'll be telling them I'll go the "chargeback" route!!!(which will cost them extra).

Was the parking closed? Or did you choose not to use it?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Pruman wrote:
marcellus wrote:
As I said it’s unlikely they’ve actually got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s etc etc


Then I hope they go bust. The last thing we need out there are poorly run lifestyle companies playing fast and loose with other peoples' hard earned money (yes, I know some are decent, honest players). The "haven't got any money, yours, theirs or anyone’s" brigade operate illegally on more than one front and I'd like to see some prosecutions.

In today's Sunday Times, Mike Gooley the founder of Trailfinders, stated that most properties don't raise an invoice to the operator until the guests have checked out. He's been at it since the early 70s so I believe him.


2 things;
1) it’s not illegal for a company to borrow money from a bank (Or other sources) based on enabling future profit, it’s what almost every company does, then repay the loan, only to find that they need to give refunds and then Banks not prepared to renew loan. This is why a lot of commentators have suggested it may be worth giving operators more time as they understand the cash flow issues.

2) there’s a difference between travel/booking agents like Trailfinders and Tour Operators operating chalets.

There isn’t a person within the industry who isn’t upset with what’s happened however they’re involved/reacted and are trying to find the most equitable way through it, there’s also a lot looking down the barrels of closing down and no one is looking at walking away with bags of cash.
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@sugarmoma666, It was 24 hour free cancellation. When flight was cancelled I tried to cancel parking. On booking form Holiday Extras took my flight number, so they were also aware of cancellation. My contract stated "cancel for free within 24 hours of reservation time".
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
marcellus wrote:
... There isn’t a person within the industry who isn’t upset with what’s happened however they’re involved/reacted and are trying to find the most equitable way through it....
There isn't a customer who isn't upset with what's happened... Shall we all have a group hug? With masks, of course.

The only difference here is that some people in within the industry think that because they have our money, they can steal it.

Stealing money from your customer base simply won't work, unless the customers agree that they ought to be investing in the travel business at this time.
It seems unlikely.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
One might argue if you have a viable business model but the bank won't loan to you and you are not prepared/able to put equity in the conclusion is you don't have a viable business.

The alternatives are

a) Provide customers with a refund as far as you are able then wind up (ethical)

b) Steal customers' money to provide your working capital in the hope you can keep going (unethical)

Or you know the old fashioned way run the business at a surplus over time to have a warchest.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The people who will ultimately bail out the travel industry are the customers.

Those who have been in a position to leave money in place and carry it over, are already doing it (except where some operators are saying "you can't have your money back/a voucher/a rebooking).

The rest of us who are desperate to get away next year and subsequent years, will have long memories.

Those stealing other peoples money will pay in the long run.
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Guys, I’ve not tried to justify anyone’s actions or decisions just tried to explain why it may not be as simple as some think it may be and correct some erroneous statements.

I’ll step aside in this topic now and leave you all to continue to discuss the good and the bad guys as per the topic.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@marcellus, thanks for trying. As Mark Twain didn't say "why let the facts get in the way of a good argument" Happy
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
marcellus wrote:
Guys, I’ve not tried to justify anyone’s actions or decisions just tried to explain why it may not be as simple as some think it may be and correct some erroneous statements.

I’ll step aside in this topic now and leave you all to continue to discuss the good and the bad guys as per the topic.


There is nothing erroneous about saying that, If I have paid for a service/product and the company doesn't provide, I am entitled to my money back.

It's nothing to do with how simple it is. It's to do with how lawful it is and the law is clear.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
NickYoung wrote:
marcellus wrote:
Guys, I’ve not tried to justify anyone’s actions or decisions just tried to explain why it may not be as simple as some think it may be and correct some erroneous statements.

I’ll step aside in this topic now and leave you all to continue to discuss the good and the bad guys as per the topic.


There is nothing erroneous about saying that, If I have paid for a service/product and the company doesn't provide, I am entitled to my money back.

It's nothing to do with how simple it is. It's to do with how lawful it is and the law is clear.


Ok, let me try putting it this way;
- If you owe me some money but have none and no means to get any how will you pay me the money you owe me?
- if I take you to Court and the court agrees that you owe me some money, what will happen?
- the court will order some sort of payment plan that you can afford until you have repaid me in full, but as you have no money that may take many many years until you have repaid me in full, or if you are a company you may decide to close the business therefore I would never get any of the money you owe me.

My suggestion to you all is to work with whoever owes you money to see how you can achieve your goal of getting what you’re due.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Totally get the "work with them if you can", but if someone wants their money back - pay it back!

If "me" is a company...

Why I haven't I get any capital, when I have operated all season and have accepted money for future bookings, which I haven't yet had to service? If I have no capital, I must be running a very poor business model.

Courts will not be sympathetic to such businesses and certainly won't allow "many years" of payments. If the claim is "I have no money", then I won't have any later either - the company should be wound up and assets used to pay off debts.

The "I can't pay refunds, because I have no money", simply isn't acceptable - morally or legally. It's fraud. It's theft.

If you are one of the "I have no money" operators, sell up, pay your debts and get out of the industry.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@NickYoung, for your clarity; I am not a tour operator and have no debts (legally or morally).
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marcellus wrote:
@NickYoung, for your clarity; I am not a tour operator and have no debts (legally or morally).


Never suggested you were.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
NickYoung wrote:
marcellus wrote:
@NickYoung, for your clarity; I am not a tour operator and have no debts (legally or morally).


Never suggested you were.


My bad I thought you said;

NickYoung wrote:
If you are one of the "I have no money" operators, sell up, pay your debts and get out of the industry.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 10-05-20 22:19; edited 1 time in total
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No, not at all, but I can see why you could read it that way..

"You" is aimed at all those out there...it's an open statement, not directed at any individual.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@NickYoung, two points.

In some cases the accommodation provider / flight operator etc did not cancel the holiday - it was cancelled on their behalf by a third party (such as a government). So they are no more "at fault" then the customer is for not turning up. In these circumstances (not necessarily covered by the Package Travel Regs) it is not clear cut that a refund is due.

Where people are trying to pay refunds, you need to allow some time for this to happen. A travel agent may have to wait for the TO (and any extras booked by the agent) to refund. the TO may have to wait for the airline, transfer company, accommodation provider, lift pass office & ski school to refund. Many had additional costs, to both get people home unexpectedly and to now pay staff to process refunds when they are getting no income. In may cases, as marcellus says, they may have to get a further loan from the bank - and if you have tried to contact the business customer operations of a bank in recent weeks, as I have, you will know that it is nearly always a 2-3 hour wait just to get through with a simple query. And none of these people operated with staff to handle an unexpected huge number of refunds - the accounts operation is probably only one or two people - some of whom may even have been sick for the past two months.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/368711/comment-abtas-refunds-stance-will-be-pr-disaster
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ecureuil wrote:
@NickYoung, two points.

In some cases the accommodation provider / flight operator etc did not cancel the holiday - it was cancelled on their behalf by a third party (such as a government). So they are no more "at fault" then the customer is for not turning up. In these circumstances (not necessarily covered by the Package Travel Regs) it is not clear cut that a refund is due.

Where people are trying to pay refunds, you need to allow some time for this to happen. A travel agent may have to wait for the TO (and any extras booked by the agent) to refund. the TO may have to wait for the airline, transfer company, accommodation provider, lift pass office & ski school to refund. Many had additional costs, to both get people home unexpectedly and to now pay staff to process refunds when they are getting no income. In may cases, as marcellus says, they may have to get a further loan from the bank - and if you have tried to contact the business customer operations of a bank in recent weeks, as I have, you will know that it is nearly always a 2-3 hour wait just to get through with a simple query. And none of these people operated with staff to handle an unexpected huge number of refunds - the accounts operation is probably only one or two people - some of whom may even have been sick for the past two months.


To your first point, insurance companies have been clear - where cancellation has been due to govt advice, they will pay up (though why holiday providers think that gives them carte blanche to keep other people's money, I don't know!).

To your second point - you have just described the rank bad business practice that has caused this problem.

It cannot be put in any better words, than those in the brilliant article linked by Mitcva in the post above.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It's a pretty simple model of an intermediary between the customer and the service provider.
The customer has a contract with the intermediary ( TO / TA ) and the intermediary has a bunch of other contacts with the service providers.
The customer pays a premium to the TO / TA to manage that relationship with the providers, and the TO / TA leverages their economies of scale, expertise, market position etc. to yield a margin. They also carry ALL the risk associated with those contracts with the service providers, this risk is not devolved to the customer.
As far as law is concerned the customer has a contract with the vendor to provide a service, if that service is not provided then they have a right to a refund. There is not really any ambiguity there.
I think it's largely acknowledged that many intermediaries are not in a position to refund the customer, but that does not somehow magically dissolve them of their legal and contactual obligations with the customer.
Some narratives seek to introduce notions of "fault" as a vehicle to mitigate the disconnect between legal obligation to pay and ability to pay, and somehow using the fact that the ability to pay has been diminished, that the obligation no longer exists.
These are separate entities, and it is certainly not down to the customer, or their insurer to fill in the void, unless the Travel company goes bust, and the customer's insurance covers that.
There is some nuance between liquidity and solvency in a company with few fixed assets. Lacking in liquidity (cash-flow) does not mean insolvent. So some of the commentaries saying that these business are insolvent might be wide of the mark, but it could also be the case that they are unwilling to sell off fixed assets at this stage knowing that they will get rock bottom price, and just hoping that by holding out on refunding the customers, they can avoid that.
The flip side is that many have no fixed assets as they lease hotels, chalets, transfer vans & rent office space etc...
In that case they are insolvent and should admit to it, rather than just saying that things we be ok in the end if we can keep your money.
They won't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
WindOfChange wrote:

In that case they are insolvent and should admit to it, rather than just saying that things we be ok in the end if we can keep your money.
They won't.


This in a nutshell is it. Anyone keeping your money illegally probably isn't the sort of business you want a lot of faith in to stick around. NB technically BA are in this category by making it practically impossible to gain a cash refund ( through phone lines which were never answered) but much easier to get a voucher.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
As this murky saga continues, one of the UK's leading commercial law firms offers their tuppence-worth (for considerably less than their usual hourly rate) ...

Lewis Silkin ...

"CANCELLATIONS AND REFUNDS DURING THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC
https://www.lewissilkin.com/en/insights/cancellations-and-refunds-during-the-covid-19-pandemic

Quote:
At the same time, it remains the case - for the time being at least - that in the UK financial protection under the ATOL scheme only applies to a “licensable transaction”, and that the issue of a voucher doesn’t come within that definition. It follows that any travel company which claims that vouchers they are issue are “financially protected” is misleading their customers.


TripAdvisor ... a long-running thread ...

ANYONE HAD REFUND FROM TUI?
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g1-i10702-k13288812-o120-Anyone_had_refund_from_Tui-Air_Travel.html

----------------------------------------------------

As we're now 21 pages into this topic ... and since so many ski tour operators are referenced ... I was idly wondering as to the outcome of the thread linked below, in terms of refund requests to snowHeads for the Spring Families Bash, and how they'd been resolved ... and generally what the sH refund policy comprises in the face of force majeure ... and the 'farce majeure' that seems to have afflicted the UK travel industry?

SFAB2020, SPRING FAMILIES BASH :: VAL THORENS, 11 APR 20
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=148555&start=160

[Relevant reading from page 5, 8 Mar 2020]
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So I reported my ski company to the Competition and Markets Authority three weeks ago for behaving unfairly during the Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak - I was due my refund by 30 March. I am still waiting. Today I received the following reply:

Quote:

Thank you for contacting the Competition and Markets Authority (the CMA) to report a business behaving unfairly during the current coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic.

Your complaint will help us to understand better the problems that people are experiencing and to take action to tackle unfair business practices. We are taking very seriously the many complaints we are receiving on these issues, and the information you have provided us is extremely valuable.

We might need to contact you again to request further information but, if you do not hear further from us, please rest assured that your concerns are being taken into account – you do not need to do anything further.

Unfortunately, we are unable to provide an update on individual complaints, and replies to this email address are not being monitored. However, if you wish to report another business that you believe is behaving unfairly during the coronavirus pandemic, please use our dedicated online form.

Finally, we set out on the attached sheet some information which explains some of your rights, and also summarises some of the actions the CMA and certain other organisations are taking to protect consumers. Further details about the CMA’s coronavirus response are available on our coronavirus response page.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Yours sincerely

The CMA COVID-19 Taskforce 


The attached sheet contains the following text:

Quote:
Issues faced by consumers during the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic

What are my rights regarding cancellations and refunds?

The CMA has issued a statement on its views on consumer protection law in relation to cancellations and refunds during the coronavirus pandemic.
The statement covers a range of consumer contracts and situations. For most contracts, the CMA would expect a full refund to be issued where:
• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services;
• no service is provided by a business, for example because this is prevented by the restrictions that apply during the current lockdown; or
• a consumer cancels, or is prevented from receiving any services, because the lockdown restrictions mean they are not allowed to use the services.

More information that may help you to understand how the law is likely to apply in different situations is set out in the statement at the link above.
The CMA has also launched a programme of work to investigate reports of businesses failing to respect cancellation rights during the coronavirus pandemic. Where we find evidence that companies are failing to comply with the law, the CMA may take appropriate enforcement action, including taking the business concerned to court if it does not address our concerns. Individuals can also take their own legal action against unfair terms should they choose to.

What are my rights regarding cancellation of flights?

The Civil Aviation Authority (the CAA) has published guidance on your rights if your flight is cancelled.
In particular, where your flight is cancelled you must be offered the choice of:
• a refund; or
• re-routing (alternative flights) at the earliest opportunity; or
• re-routing at a later date (subject to availability).
If you have not received your refund within a reasonable period of time, you should raise a formal complaint with the airline. If you are unable to resolve your complaint with the airline, you can escalate your complaint to an alternative dispute resolution body (ADR)or to the CAA’s Passenger Advice and Complaints Team. You can find out more information about escalating your complaint on the CAA’s website.
We are sharing details of complaints that we receive about flights cancellations with the CAA.
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Latest ...

ABTA continue their campaigning ...

ABTA WELCOMES GOVERNMENT'S FURLOUGH ANNOUNCEMENT BUT CALLS FOR CLEAR STRATEGY TO SUPPORT THE INDUSTRY[b]
https://www.abta.com/news/abta-welcomes-governments-furlough-announcement-calls-clear-strategy-support-industry

[b]MoneySavingExpert
(Martin Lewis) suggests great care be taken in accepting 'refund credit notes' ... see item 10 ...

"ACCEPT A VOUCHER RATHER THAN A REFUND, AND IT'S UNLIKELY YOU'LL BE ABLE TO CLAIM ON A DEBIT/CREDIT CARD IF THE FIRM GOES BUST"
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/latesttip/

Daily Mail (Amelia Murray) ...

"HOLIDAY FIRMS 'BULLYING' CUSTOMERS INTO HANDING OVER THOUSANDS OF POUNDS FOR TRIPS THAT LOOK SET TO BE CANCELLED"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/holidays/article-8312611/Holiday-firms-demand-cash-trips-look-set-cancelled.html
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
marcellus wrote:

1) it’s not illegal for a company to borrow money from a bank (Or other sources) based on enabling future profit, it’s what almost every company does, then repay the loan, only to find that they need to give refunds and then Banks not prepared to renew loan. This is why a lot of commentators have suggested it may be worth giving operators more time as they understand the cash flow issues.


Yes I know but, for the sake of accuracy, banks are there to facilitate the trading of solvent companies and that would normally be via an agreed overdraft facility backed by a personal guarantee. A loan would be for capital spending. The idea of an o/d facility is that you trade well within it and only max it out at the lowest point of trading - for a ski tour op that really shouldn't be mid March! And one thing I know about 'commentators' is they know diddly about things like cash flow - that's them regurgitating a line they've been fed I expect. No, what you describe over a few posts is a business where many operators are trading close to or in insolvency. They really shouldn't be taking money off people in the first place.

marcellus wrote:

2) there’s a difference between travel/booking agents like Trailfinders and Tour Operators operating chalets.


Yes he is an agent but he was talking about operators - something he also knows a lot about because since 1970 Trailfinders have done a fair bit of that too.

Davina Goldballs wrote:


MoneySavingExpert (Martin Lewis) suggests great care be taken in accepting 'refund credit notes' ... see item 10 ...

"ACCEPT A VOUCHER RATHER THAN A REFUND, AND IT'S UNLIKELY YOU'LL BE ABLE TO CLAIM ON A DEBIT/CREDIT CARD IF THE FIRM GOES BUST"
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/latesttip/


and they will be going bust because it looks like only France and Ireland will be destinations open to you if you want to avoid two weeks quarantine on your return.
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
MooseMiller wrote:

Hey all,
Another thumbs up for Crystal from me too...
Due Austria 14th - Closure announced around 8pm on the 12th
Email from Crystal assuring full refund at 8:15pm also on the 12th
Card refunded on the 16th
Good service

Following up on the above in case it is useful information for anyone in similar circumstances; Our Austria trip with Crystal was cancelled on the 12th March and refunded on the 16th. We also re-booked on the 12th for the 14th March with Inghams to Alpe D'Huez given the confidence that the French resorts would remain open for the remainder of the season. We flew in on the 14th and were effectively evicted from the hotel on the next day. We spent the night in a chalet before Inghams flew us home on the 16th.
The initial response from Inghams was essentially '....not our fault your holiday was curtailed, go and talk to your insurance...'.
However, following a couple of emails back and forth, I received the latest reply today informing me that I would be refunded, in full, back to my card within 14 days.
Incidentally, TUI also cancelled and refunded (after a lengthy telephone call, but all sorted within a week) my summer holiday in June.

So from my personal experience Crystal, Inghams(and TUI) all come out as GOOD guys
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
some might find this of interest;

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/recommendation_vouchers_en.pdf
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Latest ...

Which? expands on what Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert was saying a couple of days ago about the risks of credit vouchers -v- refunds ...

"SHOULD I ACCEPT A HOLIDAY COMPANY OR AIRLINE VOUCHER? DO I HAVE TO?
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/05/should-i-accept-a-holiday-company-or-airline-voucher-do-i-have-to/

The Mirror explains that the EU is now flexing its legal muscles ...

"EU BEGINS LEGAL CASES AGAINST COUNTRIES OVER TRAVEL REFUNDS FOR CANCELLED HOLIDAYS"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news/breaking-eu-begins-legal-cases-22020293

Company News HQ reports some research conducted by insurer GoCompare ...

"OVER 7.5 MILLION HOLIDAYMAKERS IN LIMBO OVER SUMMER TRAVEL PLANS"
https://www.companynewshq.com/company-news/personal-finance-utilities-company-news/over-7-5-million-holidaymakers-in-limbo-over-summer-travel-plans/
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
A significant development this morning in the reportage and monitoring of travel enterprises, as per refunds ...

MoneySavingExpert[b] has published information on ...

[b]THE 50 BEST AND WORST TRAVEL FIRMS FOR CANCELLATION REFUNDS

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/05/mse-travel-survey-results/

"Ryanair and Teletext fail, Hays Travel and Jet2 succeed"
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
WindOfChange wrote:

In that case they are insolvent and should admit to it, rather than just saying that things we be ok in the end if we can keep your money.
They won't.


This in a nutshell is it. Anyone keeping your money illegally probably isn't the sort of business you want a lot of faith in to stick around. NB technically BA are in this category by making it practically impossible to gain a cash refund ( through phone lines which were never answered) but much easier to get a voucher.


Talking of BA as you say it was practically impossible to get a refund, so I reluctantly applied for a voucher and the next day I received an email acknowledging my application and that I'd receive the Travel Voucher email within 7 days. 5 weeks later and I still hadn't received the email voucher in spite of several emails sent to them and messages on their twitter account and fruitless attempts to contact them by phone. Eventually I managed to get through on the phone and was told I didn't actually need a Travel Voucher email as all I needed to do was quote the original booking reference when I made a new booking. However not having received an email Travel Voucher I wanted confirmation of the value of the voucher (I had paid an additional baggage charge for ski carriage). It then turned out that according to their Travel Voucher T's and C's the voucher is only valid for the flight element of the original booking, additional baggage fees have to be dealt with by a refund, and surprisingly it turns out that applying for a Travel Voucher does not automatically trigger the refund of associated baggage fees! rolling eyes Anyway the person I spoke to said he'd arrange for the refund of the £120 ski baggage fee. Just over 2 weeks later I received the baggage fee refund, but much to my surprise I also received a full refund on the flight ticket! I don't know whether the guy who dealt with the baggage refund had inadvertently triggered the refund process for the flight ticket as well, but anyway it's all worked out OK (after much hassle). Madeye-Smiley
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
@Alastair Pink, lets see how joined up it really is. Try making another booking using original ref and see if you get a Brucey bonus!
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Updates ...

The conduct of airlines since the crisis escalated in mid-March has been much reported, but is thrown into sharp reality in the case of this BBC Scotland-reported story about an Edinburgh couple who are £2000 out of pocket due to the failure of Lufthansa and KLM to refund a flight ... and then a replacement flight ...

"CORONAVIRUS: CALL FOR ACTION OVER REFUNDS FOR CANCELLED FLIGHTS"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52713308?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story

ABTA have ramped up their lobby of the UK government to provide financial support of the UK's struggling travel industry. Here's their press release of yesterday ...

"ABTA CALLS FOR A COORDINATED STRATEGY AND CLEAR COMMUNICATION BY GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT JOBS AND AID RECOVERY"

Quote:


ABTA’s practical steps include:

- Ensuring any quarantine measures that are proposed are part of a wider strategy, including consideration of FCO travel advice. Any measures should be based on health and scientific advice and be proportionate, targeted and limited only to what is necessary to protect public health, and they should be communicated clearly.
- Providing guidance and clarity on refunds for package holidays, including confirming clearly and publicly that Refund Credit Notes covering ATOL package holidays with flights are financially protected.
- Working with the ABI and insurers, to ensure adequate travel insurance cover is available to customers for when FCO travel restrictions start to be lifted.


-------------------------------------------

From Monday of last week ...

Davina Goldballs wrote:


As we're now 21 pages into this topic ... and since so many ski tour operators are referenced ... I was idly wondering as to the outcome of the thread linked below, in terms of refund requests to snowHeads for the Spring Families Bash, and how they'd been resolved ... and generally what the sH refund policy comprises in the face of force majeure ... and the 'farce majeure' that seems to have afflicted the UK travel industry?

SFAB2020, SPRING FAMILIES BASH :: VAL THORENS, 11 APR 20
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=148555&start=160

[Relevant reading from page 5, 8 Mar 2020]


Is anyone from snowHeads and/or Banque d'Admin available to comment on the above?
[b]
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Phoned Swiss this morning to chase up a refund for flights in April. After three phone calls They had already sent me an email confirming that a refund was payable but with no dates. Was told they were intending to process by end of August...??? Not sure why are dragging it out...waiting for bail out money to reach their bank account perhaps?
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Davina Goldballs wrote:


Is anyone from snowHeads and/or Banque d'Admin available to comment on the above?
[b]


I'm sure you can tell us because if you have a direct claim @dadmin will have been in touch. If he hasn't I suspect it's because it's not of your frikkin business. I'm sure you can take some comfort from the lack of bitching and whining on the forum to mean that everyone has had the situation addressed adequately.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ster wrote:
@Alastair Pink, lets see how joined up it really is. Try making another booking using original ref and see if you get a Brucey bonus!


@ster The thought did cross my mind, but being of an honest nature my conscience would not permit it. Little Angel
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