 Poster: A snowHead
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SCGB (Freshtracks) took a decision to refund quickly and completely. This was a little painful for the club, but seemed the right thing to do. Anyone had experience with this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The link takes me to an error page.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@CaravanSkier, I think there may be an unnecessary full stop at the end of the link.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @CaravanSkier, I think there may be an unnecessary full stop at the end of the link. |
Found it thanks. One of the reasons I asked for a refund was because the replacement flights were quite a lot more expensive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Hells Bells Thanks, I fixed that in my previous post.
@CaravanSkier when Ryanair originally offered the no-change fee I requested a refund, due to the fact that the route I was on (Dublin Munich) was closing end of March anyway. I got a boilerplate reply that simply repeated the no-change fee at which stage I tried other bookings only to find they all cost more money (per the scam). How did you request a refund and did you actually get offered one (even if they are trying now to change that to a voucher per the new scam).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Skiworld update - incase anyone interested.
Basically not getting anywhere at all with a refund - still offering credit note or deferral only.
I have asked them to confirm if their credit notes will have the same backing as ABTA are currently advising - waiting to hear.
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@dharnett, I simply waited. First email I got suggested that as flights were likely to be grounded I could change my flights without incurring any additional fee. I looked at flights for a trip later in the year, but they were more expensive and at inconvenient times for me. I therefore did nothing. IIRC I got at least one more email offering the change option and when I went onto their website their refund request button would not work because my flights had not then been cancelled. So I did nothing and eventually got an email telling me my flight had been cancelled and offering either re-book or refund. I clicked onto refund, followed the process and got a message to say my refund would be processed again IIRC in 20 days. I have subsequently had another email apologising for how long the process will take, but thats it. To date I have had nothing suggesting I'll likely get a voucher instead. It may, however only be a matter of time.
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It's interesting the different responses from banks/card companies.
A mate raised with Amex that his holiday company (unnamed, since this thread is supposed to be about the good guys!) was refusing a refund, voucher or similar, basically telling its customers to get lost. He got through on the phone straight away, and Amex immediately raised a query, credited him the funds, and have given the provider 20 days (I think) to prove it did provide the holiday (tough to do when it didn't!).
In contrast, my credit card company has shown no acknowledgement of any paperwork or messages.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely Skiworld is ATOL? There is legislation in place that they should have refunded in full within 14 days of cancellation. Did you pay by credit card? Make a claim under Section 75. Or contact Citizens Advice and they will give you all the gen. You are entitilrd to a refund. Push it. I did with another company & won.
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| snowdave wrote: |
It's interesting the different responses from banks/card companies.
A mate raised with Amex that his holiday company (unnamed, since this thread is supposed to be about the good guys!) was refusing a refund, voucher or similar, basically telling its customers to get lost. He got through on the phone straight away, and Amex immediately raised a query, credited him the funds, and have given the provider 20 days (I think) to prove it did provide the holiday (tough to do when it didn't!).
In contrast, my credit card company has shown no acknowledgement of any paperwork or messages. |
That's interesting as Amex told me that it was only if the holiday company had broken T&Cs they would refund and sent me to my insurers (who are now trying to say it was them that cancelled not me  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowdave wrote: |
It's interesting the different responses from banks/card companies.
..In contrast, my credit card company has shown no acknowledgement of any paperwork or messages. |
With credit cards I've found that the two providers I've used Section 75 on over the years were both protecting their interests not mine.
My current claim is against Post Office Money and Expedia.
I could not get through to Expedia customer services, or I'm sure they'd sort it...
but I didn't feel like lending them a few hundred quid in the mean time.
I explained that to the card company, and they asked me to prove this and that...
I insisted they issue the S75, politely offering to prove my case in court, but meanwhile they could take my word for it.
I also stopped my Direct Debit to them (they declined, so I just asked my bank to do it),
and paid the full balance less the suggested loan to Expedia. I parked the card in a drawer somewhere.
I have the recording of my instructions to them, but no written confirmation.
I do have a fancy bank account which delivered a completely different experience with a Visa Chargeback,
which they performed immediately, without question, cheerfully, and with written confirmation. I pay those
guys, of course.
I don't think Amex is actually a credit card.
"T&Cs" may form part of a contract, but are unlikely to be all of it and they may or may not be reasonable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@dunc999, had they broken Ts and Cs? Ours clearly had - cancelling and not refunding or even entering into a discussion about alternatives.
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| philwig wrote: |
| I don't think Amex is actually a credit card. |
Depends on the Amex card. Plenty of them are credit rather than charge cards, under their own (Amex) scheme rules, which are typically more customer-friendly than Visa and Mastercard.
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You know it makes sense.
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@jilly29, Yep - Skiworld are associated to ABTA - it was a package holiday.
I have put a claim through my insurance, which 'should' clear through ok (annual policy renewed in Feb so Covid covered).
Just frustrating as spending so much time on it - and its not even for myself!!
You are correct - should and am entitled to a full refund - just cant get one out of them!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Liv7, welcome to 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I found this on my travel agent's website:
"...all monies paid by passengers are held securely in escrow by the Travel Trust until each person has returned back home from their holiday. Only when you’re home safe and sound are passenger funds released to XXXXX, guaranteeing that 100% of your passengers’ money is fully secured and protected until they have received and enjoyed their holiday"
Despite this my travel agent told me to make insurance claim, which I have done. Something doesn't add up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Easyjet.....my outward flight has been cancelled, but not the return flight.
Should I wait until the return flight is cancelled, and claim a refund for both flights? Or are refunds paid on an individual flight basis?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ski Solutions have refunded me in full now for a Ski Total holiday booked for March 15th. They were very helpful.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| @dunc999, had they broken Ts and Cs? Ours clearly had - cancelling and not refunding or even entering into a discussion about alternatives. |
@snowdave, yes I guess so, the question at the time was whether they had cancelled but I do now have that in a mail, so maybe I can go back to Amex. They are the same, no refund, no alternative, just keeping the money. I've started the process with my insurance now so I need to see how that plays out first I guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@dunc999, my view on the chain of liability is that it goes:
Operator/provider
Credit card company (potentially joint liability under S75, but chargeback requires you to exhaust the negotiation with the operator first, which seems reasonable to me)
Insurance company
Moneyclaim online.
My friend's conversation with Amex took only a few minutes, he explained our circumstances (which sound the same as yours) and Amex went straight to chargeback.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just out of interest, does anyone know what happens when a chargeback is successful in this scenario? Do Amex get their money back from the holiday company, claim on their insurance or simply lose the money?
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Amex gets its money back from the acquirer. The acquirer typically recoups this from the merchant (holiday company). The acquirer may be an independent acquirer (e.g. Worldpay) or may be a bank, and may indeed be the merchant's own bank (e.g. Barclays). Generally, acquirers are large and financially robust (there's only a few in teh UK and almost all are banks) thus able to stand behind payments even if the merchant fails.
For large merchants (e.g. Tui), recouping the funds is relatively easy for the acquirer, because there's a constant string of transactions so if the acquirer needs to recoup £1.5k from the merchant, it just grabs some of the funds that are flowing through it every day.
For smaller (and high risk) merchants - e.g. travel, online gambling, online "content", there can be long settlement periods - the acquirer might hold funds for weeks or months before releasing them, so it's always got a "float" to repay disputed transactions.
However, these are unusual times, and I can imagine that there will be a number of merchants, including some large ones, where the net flow of funds could turn negative - there could be more chargebacks than the cash flowing to the merchants to support them. In this situation, with the acquirers taking actual risk with their own money, I imagine chargebacks will become more heavily disputed.
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If your bank agrees to chargeback it will request the funds from the provider's bank, and I think they (and then you) will get it automatically if there are funds available. If there aren't funds available you won't get anything. Neither bank has any liability. The provider can dispute the chargeback, and come after you for breach of contract if they think they have a case. I think there is a time limit for making claims.
Protection under credit cards is rather different, as if you meet the requirements the card issuer has joint liability with the provider.
Edit: snowdave gives a fuller explanation
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ecureuil, under scheme rules, the acquirer has ultimate liability, so if the merchant goes bust before paying, the acquirer still has to pay. In any normal situation, the acquirer will recoup the money from the merchant, but maybe not at times like this.
This is one of the reasons that travel is such a high risk sector for credit card acquiring - in some cases only specialists (with attendant high fees) will touch it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Through Chat I have been promised a refund. More on other thread.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Over recent weeks, ABTA has mounted a big campaign to secure government help for the travel industry and persuade consumers that they should accept 'refund credit notes' to delay claims for cash refunds ... if re-bookings are not secured. As has been frequently pointed out by the consumer press, this is a get-around of the Package Tour Regulations, which enforced cash refunds for cancelled holidays by (mainly) the end of March.
The Guardian reported yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/22/big-uk-airlines-and-travel-firms-denying-refunds-which-coronavirus
"All big UK airlines and travel firms denying refunds, Which? finds"
Today, Travel Weekly published the opinions of "former Hotelplan boss Hugh Walton" ... who strongly disagrees with ABTA's position:
https://travelweekly.co.uk/articles/368711/comment-abtas-refunds-stance-will-be-pr-disaster
"Abta’s refunds stance will be ‘PR disaster’"
| Quote: |
I fully understand the Ponzi scheme-style of most tour operators’ finances, whereby future bookings pay for next weekend’s departures. Once those future bookings dry up, the whole system comes to a grinding halt ...
... If the operator needs that money to pay wages and other costs now, are we not in effect merely putting off the evil day when the tour operator fails anyway? |
He proposes:
| Quote: |
| Assuming customers don’t want to re-book, tour operators should refund 75% of the booking value within 28 days. They would be allowed to issue a RCN for the 25% balance, which would be financially protected but redeemable for cash if not used, at a future defined date – but within six months. |
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So … refund credit notes are not worth the paper they are written on unless the holiday industry can obtain some sort of guarantee from ABTA / ATOL that they will be covered in the event of any collapse or the user is refunded in full if the RCN is not used within a certain time frame - well that's my simple understanding of it - and my reason for NOT accepting a RCN!
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You know it makes sense.
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Expedia have given me coupon for a stopover hotel in Reims I had booked for Easter drive down. Must be used within 12 months and only at that hotel.
Will be OK if I drive to ski resort next season AND manage to book at said hotel, but otherwise a fairly useless offering (no disrespect to Reims!)
The hotel in question tell me they received no money from Expedia.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| charrison wrote: |
I found this on my travel agent's website:
"...all monies paid by passengers are held securely in escrow by the Travel Trust until each person has returned back home from their holiday. Only when you’re home safe and sound are passenger funds released to XXXXX, guaranteeing that 100% of your passengers’ money is fully secured and protected until they have received and enjoyed their holiday"
Despite this my travel agent told me to make insurance claim, which I have done. Something doesn't add up. |
It sure does not add up. Sounds like someone has been 'borrowing' from their escrow account.
This is what the travel trust website says:
| Quote: |
How does the Travel Trust Association provide 100% financial protection for me?
All Payments made to a TTA Member should be made payable to the specially designated trust account i.e. when paying ABC Travel Ltd make all payments to ABC Travel Ltd Trust Account.
Credit Card Payments are automatically deposited into the trust account via electronic processing. Every TTA member will have a practicing certificate. This certificate will identify the TTA member’s number, the company to whom all payments should be made and the trustee for that member including the trustee’s address.
The Travel Protection Plan covers every service which you have booked from a travel company whether it be for transport, accommodation, entertainment or recreation. It involves two aspects, firstly the Trust account operated for your benefit. The money may only be released from the Trust to pay for the services which you have booked. Secondly, there is further protection from a guarantee, the TTA will guarantee the financial obligation of its members to repay such sum to you for up to a maximum anyone passenger of £11,000. So if you paid £2,000 we guarantee we will reimburse the loss of the £2,000, where it is not available for you from the Trust account.
Therefore, the Trust Account plus the guarantee will ensure that all the money which you have paid is safely protected and available to reimburse the money paid. When you make a booking, you will be supplied with a guarantee certificate – you can see the terms of our guarantee at www.Traveltrust.co.uk/guarantee |
I would contact Travel Trust and have them explain it to the agent. Your insurer is highly unlikely to be interested and the agent is wasting your time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Further 'big up' for Jet2 who did indeed refund on the third flight (not booked via MyJet2). So all three flights refunded to their original payment source without so much as a request call or email from me. Contrast that with the evasive bullsh*t being pulled by the slippery scam artists at Ryanair.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@charrison, I think TTA is similar to the ABTA scheme, and is often used by very small travel agents. It is protecting you against the agent going bust, i.e. that you pay the agent but they go bust without having passed payment on to the operator. If your booking involved a flight element, you should be protected under the ATOL scheme. It not then I think TTA protection will only kick in if your agent, or perhaps someone else in the chain, is insolvent
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dippy wrote: |
| So … refund credit notes are not worth the paper they are written on unless the holiday industry can obtain some sort of guarantee from ABTA / ATOL that they will be covered in the event of any collapse or the user is refunded in full if the RCN is not used within a certain time frame - well that's my simple understanding of it - and my reason for NOT accepting a RCN! |
Sunweb giving an alternative take on it ....... "You do have the right to refuse the Refund Credit Note according to the guidelines set by ABTA. If you do this we will refund you as soon as possible, however, due to the exceptional circumstances and volume of cases the time limit is currently suspended. Please note by refusing the Refund Credit Note you will forfeit your rights to financial protection. The financial protection is directly linked to the Refund Credit Notes. Our guarantee funds ABTA / SGR can only offer this protection if the Refund Credit note is accepted." They're currently trying a different tactic every day. https://www.sunweb.co.uk/ski/refund-credit-notes
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Got full refund from Crystal today just as I was starting to doubt it would happen. 5 weeks ago they said it'd be "by the end of April if not sooner" so they've kept to that.
It's a pity they've let themselves down slightly by not communicating better in the meantime. From looking at comments on their twitter and fb a bit of reassurance that they were making progress would have saved them from some of the backlash that developed.
I thought they handled the repatriation from France very well, no doubt it helps to have a large airline to call on in TUI.
At a glance prices seem similar for next year. It's not my style to book this far ahead but for £100 deposit I thought I might as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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UPDATES
Travel Mole reports this morning that the Right to Refund campaign - which claims nearly 20,000 supporters and is headed by Kane Pirie - is threatening legal action against the UK government "... should it decide to allow travel companies 12 months' grace to pay customer refunds."
Right to Refund is "fiercely critical of ABTA over its stance" on credit voucher refunds.
Their report: "'ZOMBIE' TRAVEL COMPANIES WILL FALL INSOLVENT ANYWAY, SAYS KANE PIRIE"
https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2042419&c=setreg®ion=2
| Quote: |
Right To Refund's managing director, Kane Pirie, has sent another letter to ABTA, saying its position on Credit Refund Notes will lead to a 'Pandora's Box of horrors'.
Pirie, MD of VIVID Travel, says the extra time the ABTA proposal affords travel companies is of no use because if a travel company can't get itself financially secure within six months, adding an extra year will make no difference.
"The ABTA proposals will in fact make matters worse, as several zombie travel companies will stagger on into Q1 2021, take bookings and then fall insolvent when their loan notes to customers (CRNs) become redeemable. This will drag out this intolerable muddle into 2021," he said. |
Right to Refund campaign:
https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-give-customers-their-cash-refunds-on-coronavirus-cancelled-holidays
iNews: HOLIDAY REFUNDS: WHY RYANAIR, TUI AND MORE AREN'T PAYING TIMELY REFUNDS ON CORONAVIRUS CANCELLATIONS - AND IF IT'S LEGAL"
https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/travel/holiday-refunds-ryanair-tui-jet2-easyjet-refund-coronavirus-cancellations-airlines-providers-breaking-law-2546236
Last week, Which? ran this interesting report highlighting (non-ski) travel companies which are complying with the law:
SMALL HOLIDAY COMPANIES PAY REFUNDS - WHILE MULTINATIONALS STALL
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/04/small-holiday-companies-pay-refunds-while-multinationals-stall/ - Which?
| Quote: |
As well as Trailfinders and Kuoni, all of the following are complying with Package Holiday Regulations. These are just the ones we’ve heard about – there are almost certainly more.
Inntravel (activity holiday specialists)
Adventure Creators (Pyrenees specialists)
Carrier Travel (Luxury, personalised holidays)
Explore Worldwide (Small group, adventure travel)
Ffestiniog Travel (Rail holidays)
Friendship Travel (Solo travel)
Inntravel (Walking and cycling specialists)
Journey Latin America (Escorted tours and holidays)
Jules Verne (Escorted tours for small groups)
Llama Travel (Latin American travel)
Much Better Adventures (Small group adventure holidays)
Mountain Kingdoms (Walking and trekking)
Responsible Travel (Ethical and sustainable holidays)
Sona Tours (Escorted tours)
Vivid Travel (Luxury, personalised holidays) |
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| Davina Goldballs wrote: |
| Quote: |
Right To Refund's managing director, Kane Pirie, has sent another letter to ABTA, saying its position on Credit Refund Notes will lead to a 'Pandora's Box of horrors'.
Pirie, MD of VIVID Travel, says the extra time the ABTA proposal affords travel companies is of no use because if a travel company can't get itself financially secure within six months, adding an extra year will make no difference.
"The ABTA proposals will in fact make matters worse, as several zombie travel companies will stagger on into Q1 2021, take bookings and then fall insolvent when their loan notes to customers (CRNs) become redeemable. This will drag out this intolerable muddle into 2021," he said. |
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This has been my view all along. Kicking the giant ponzi scheme can down the road. Even now there are people paying deposits on holidays for next season to companies who haven't made refunds for this season yet. Look around and you'll notice some companies stepping up a gear to collect deposits for next year. Some will say this is helping companies stay alive but in all reality many, possibly the majority, will still fail. ABTA, ATOL, TTA are no longer fit for purpose - how can customer funds possibly be protected on next season's holidays if they weren't this season and when the system designed to protect consumers is in collapse right now? The PTR is still the law and even though Mr Sch(n)apps has the power to change it (because it is a statutory instrument), he hasn't and probably won't. Company Law is being broken left right and centre too.
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I can happily report that United Airlines have refunded my Easter US flights, funds arrived in my credit card account today.
Initially I was refused and they issued travel credits, but I complained to US dept of Transportation and initiated a chargeback claim with credit card.
It helped that US airlines got a big bailout and the DOT issued an Enforcement Notice on airlines to refund if customer insisted.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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MORE UPDATES from the travel/consumer media.
Following the onslaught of lobbying and campaigning by ABTA ... along with the commercial tactics of numerous airlines and major tour operators ... the tide of communication seems to be swinging back to the basics of law and consumers' rights. This interview on Sky News gives a taste of it ...
Sky News interview of Jill Starley-Grainger - edior of JetSetJourneys.com - by Mark Austin ...
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=232289094507907
The Travel Journalist reports an unrelated scandal which has engulfed the long-standing youth travel specialist STA Travel, which is not earning brownie points for its stance on Covid-cancellations ...
"STA TRAVEL’S MULTI-MILLION FINE FOR FLIGHT PASS CON"
https://thetraveljournalist.co.uk/sta-travels-multi-million-fine-for-flight-pass-con/
The same writer - Linsey McNeill/The Travel Journalist ("journalist and travel writer for the past 35 + years ... currently ... associate editor of TravelMole.com") ran this piece a few days ago ...
"WHY YOUR TRAVEL COMPANY WON’T REFUND YOUR HOLIDAY"
https://thetraveljournalist.co.uk/why-your-travel-company-wont-refund-your-holiday/
The Independent has an exclusive by Simon Calder this afternoon ... about Tui selling Spanish holidays for departure in a couple of weeks (joke?) ...
"BRITAIN’S BIGGEST TRAVEL FIRM IS SELLING SPANISH HOLIDAYS FOR MID-MAY"
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/spain-flight-tui-coronavirus-foreign-office-uk-travel-advice-a9487496.html
| Quote: |
Britain’s biggest holiday firm is selling Spanish beach packages to the Costa Dorada for departure on 15 May – despite the severe lockdown measures in force in both the UK and Spain.
Tui is charging £323 for a week’s self-catering in the resort of Salou, including flights from Manchester to Reus and coach transfers. |
Simon Calder has also picked up on the 'Zombie travel companies' story linked here yesterday ... but with a ski-related linked report ...
FORMER ABTA BOARD MEMBER WARNS OF ‘ZOMBIE TRAVEL COMPANIES’ – AND THREATENS TO SUE HOLIDAY FIRMS
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/holiday-refund-travel-abta-credit-notes-travel-package-a9485481.html
| Quote: |
| A former board member of Abta has warned that the UK travel industry risks committing “commercial suicide” if the present policy on refunds is maintained. |
| Quote: |
Separately, a London ski company is claiming that any customer who declines a Refund Credit Note will lose financial protection
Sunweb, an Abta member based in Victoria, is telling travellers: “Please note by refusing the Refund Credit Note you will forfeit your rights to financial protection. The financial protection is directly linked to the Refund Credit Notes. |
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Dont TUI know that Spain is still pretty much in lockdown, they have just permitted under 14s to go out with a parent for up to one hour a day for exercise but not otherwise. The beaches are closed.
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FAQ
