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Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@SkiTurk, My compensation cheque, from Crystal, (for a long delay) arrived exactly 28 days after the event. Just to add, I had been told the cheque could take up to 28 days to arrive
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Still waiting patiently for a refund from Crystal. Would not wish to receive a voucher (if rules change) as not planning a package next year. A generic TUI possibly.

I must say Gerry has a point. Odd how some British ski schools have been reluctant to provide refund and foreign ski schools have (eg ESF). I had a refund immediately from Ski Club for a Instructor Led Instruction though!

I have booked guiding with Austrian and Italian outfits and paid on arrival. Indeed cancelled the day before a session in Austria early March as I was feeling 'rough'.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The brick layer analogy is inappropriate :
  • Bricklayers have not taken significant up-front cost should the client cancel at short notice.
    Assuming they're competent like mine they're in demand and can simply move to the next job.
    They don't need cash in advance as there's no opportunity cost risk to them.
  • They also don't need cash in advance as should the customer fail to pay they can in principle remove the bricks.
    I'm sure that sometimes they have to litigate, but it'll be rare and the customer generally has an asset (the house).

Package holidays are clearly different on both counts, which is why there is considerable consumer law for specifically this purpose.
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@philwig, He was talking about instructors, not package holidays
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mogmogmog - I think your thread says more about you than TDC. You need to get a grip of yourself.
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orange wrote:
Mogmogmog - I think your thread says more about you than TDC. You need to get a grip of yourself.


Who wouldn't be hissed off under these circumstances? It's the best part of 2k.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This whole situation has had businesses scrambling to respond. They got a refund then got all frothy about GDPR. Get a grip. Before this shambles is all over tens of thousands of people will be dead and the hundreds of thousands will be unemployed. Companies of all sizes are scrambling to survive - in fact it will be a miracle if you can fly there anyway at a reasonable price next season. I thought the response was perfectly sensible and this expectation that every co will deal with it perfectly is a joke.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
orange wrote:
This whole situation has had businesses scrambling to respond. They got a refund then got all frothy about GDPR. Get a grip. Before this shambles is all over tens of thousands of people will be dead and the hundreds of thousands will be unemployed. Companies of all sizes are scrambling to survive - in fact it will be a miracle if you can fly there anyway at a reasonable price next season. I thought the response was perfectly sensible and this expectation that every co will deal with it perfectly is a joke.


Amen. Far too many people forgetting that in order to have a ski holiday there needs to be a ski industry left at the end of this. No one is laughing all the way to the bank, everyone is paying one way or another. Wise up whingers.
ski holidays
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Anyone sage on here explain this paragraph of SkiFrance's T&C's.

I am pulling my insurance claim together because they are refusing refunds or re-schedules - they called me as I had left a negative review on their Facebook page asking if I would consider taking it down.
I'm still annoyed they are keeping my cash for an apartment that is shut down and locked up without the costs incurred.
To me this reads that in their own T&C's they should refund, but I may be wrong?

7. Modifications made to key elements of the reservation by Ski France, Summer France, or Madame Vacances: In unforeseen or unavoidable circumstances (known in France as force majeur), Ski France, Summer France or Madame Vacances reserve the right to modify one or more of the services on offer. This includes both the accommodation itself and any optional additional services. The client will not be charged for any unavailable services. Should the aforementioned situation arise the client will be notified of these modifications by e-mail or telephone. The client may then choose to : - either terminate his/her contract and be fully reimbursed
- or accept the modifications or the alternative holiday proposed by Ski France, Summer France, or Madame Vacances. Both parties will then sign an amendment detailing the modification. Should there be a reduction or increase in cost this will be deducted from or added to the outstanding balance owed by the Client. If payment has already been made in full and exceeds the price of the substitute holiday, the surplus will be refunded to the client before the date of the end of their stay.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@dunc999, you don't give details of what happened, but as with others their argument is probably that they are no more at fault than you are. Rather a third party said the booking couldn't be fulfilled. They can, with some justification, claim that they made no modifications to it, so clause 7 doesn't apply. From their perspective, you haven't turned up for your holiday, so they could just as easily quote sections 8 or 9 (cancellation by client) to you, with a cancellation charge of up to 100% depending on how much notice you gave them!

How can you be sure that no costs were incurred? If it is their apartment, then presumably you expect them to still maintain some staff? If they lease it from a third party, do you know under what terms?

Having said that, if they want a good repuation I would expect them to offer credit note / reschedule, even if not for 100%.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@philwig,
what about if you booked a bricklayer in to build your extention starting on a set date after your footings had been poured. It was agreed between the 2 of you it was weeks job and you could book your joiner in to put the roof on after that. At the set date the temps dropped and never lifted above 2*(brickes can only lay at 2* and rising).
Would you pay that brickie the cost of the work even though it hadn't happened?
It wasnt his fault, the date you booked him in for the temps dropped and he couldnt lay.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Massive and pretty much immediate refund from Pure Powder for heli skiing. Now just have to get refund from BA which is more problematic as they wish for you to phone if you want a refund, they say they will issue a voucher for future travel over the internet but phone is necessary for cash. All very well but their phone lines are currently impossibly and their Indian Call Centre is closed down! Oh well, I can wait and I wont forget!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Nadenoodlee wrote:
orange wrote:
This whole situation has had businesses scrambling to respond. They got a refund then got all frothy about GDPR. Get a grip. Before this shambles is all over tens of thousands of people will be dead and the hundreds of thousands will be unemployed. Companies of all sizes are scrambling to survive - in fact it will be a miracle if you can fly there anyway at a reasonable price next season. I thought the response was perfectly sensible and this expectation that every co will deal with it perfectly is a joke.


Amen. Far too many people forgetting that in order to have a ski holiday there needs to be a ski industry left at the end of this. No one is laughing all the way to the bank, everyone is paying one way or another. Wise up whingers.


Oh, I'd forgotten that you're the leading expert on how other people should react to losing moderate to large (depending on their circumstances) sums of money.

And people accused Brian Clough of being big headed! rolling eyes
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mother hucker wrote:
@philwig,
what about if you booked a bricklayer in to build your extension starting on a set date after your footings had been poured. It was agreed between the 2 of you it was weeks job and you could book your joiner in to put the roof on after that. At the set date the temps dropped and never lifted above 2*(brickes can only lay at 2* and rising).
Would you pay that brickie the cost of the work even though it hadn't happened?
It wasn't his fault, the date you booked him in for the temps dropped and he couldn't lay.


I wonder if he hands over the cash when it rains? He must have brickies kicking his front door down looking to book a work slot.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 28-03-20 16:14; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ecureuil wrote:
@dunc999, you don't give details of what happened, but as with others their argument is probably that they are no more at fault than you are. Rather a third party said the booking couldn't be fulfilled. They can, with some justification, claim that they made no modifications to it, so clause 7 doesn't apply. From their perspective, you haven't turned up for your holiday, so they could just as easily quote sections 8 or 9 (cancellation by client) to you, with a cancellation charge of up to 100% depending on how much notice you gave them!

How can you be sure that no costs were incurred? If it is their apartment, then presumably you expect them to still maintain some staff? If they lease it from a third party, do you know under what terms?

Having said that, if they want a good repuation I would expect them to offer credit note / reschedule, even if not for 100%.


Thanks for the reply - they closed their accommodation and cancelled my booking, but will not entertain a re-schedule (which I would have been open to) or refund. They do own their properties. I hope they are paying their staff until the end of the season, but it comes over as trying to keep the cash and let me sort it out myself and not sharing any responsibility to me. It would have been my third trip in a row to the same property booked through them too, so shows how little they value my repeat custom.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
LeSki have indicated they’re holding out for changes to the legislation. It’s 14 days since they cancelled my holiday. It’s looking like a chargeback on the credit card may be the only way to resolve this.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gerry wrote:
Nadenoodlee wrote:
orange wrote:
This whole situation has had businesses scrambling to respond. They got a refund then got all frothy about GDPR. Get a grip. Before this shambles is all over tens of thousands of people will be dead and the hundreds of thousands will be unemployed. Companies of all sizes are scrambling to survive - in fact it will be a miracle if you can fly there anyway at a reasonable price next season. I thought the response was perfectly sensible and this expectation that every co will deal with it perfectly is a joke.


Amen. Far too many people forgetting that in order to have a ski holiday there needs to be a ski industry left at the end of this. No one is laughing all the way to the bank, everyone is paying one way or another. Wise up whingers.


Oh, I'd forgotten that you're the leading expert on how other people should react to losing moderate to large (depending on their circumstances) sums of money.

And people accused Brian Clough of being big headed! rolling eyes


Gerry - I read that MogMogMog got a full refund. Albeit eventually. But the TDC note was pretty clear and I’m sure in the aftermath of a resort being closed with literally no notice and complications of staff etc it would not have been an easy time. It’s a shitter for everyone-those that have no income or are self employed, those that run businesses, those that are making life and death decisions every minute of every day. Getting all arsey about it really just shows how fckn selfish and pathetic this person is. But hey ho. Let’s cross fingers for less than 20,000 dead in the UK and at least one airline left.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
dunc999 wrote:
ecureuil wrote:
@dunc999, you don't give details of what happened, but as with others their argument is probably that they are no more at fault than you are. Rather a third party said the booking couldn't be fulfilled. They can, with some justification, claim that they made no modifications to it, so clause 7 doesn't apply. From their perspective, you haven't turned up for your holiday, so they could just as easily quote sections 8 or 9 (cancellation by client) to you, with a cancellation charge of up to 100% depending on how much notice you gave them!

How can you be sure that no costs were incurred? If it is their apartment, then presumably you expect them to still maintain some staff? If they lease it from a third party, do you know under what terms?

Having said that, if they want a good repuation I would expect them to offer credit note / reschedule, even if not for 100%.


Thanks for the reply - they closed their accommodation and cancelled my booking, but will not entertain a re-schedule (which I would have been open to) or refund. They do own their properties. I hope they are paying their staff until the end of the season, but it comes over as trying to keep the cash and let me sort it out myself and not sharing any responsibility to me. It would have been my third trip in a row to the same property booked through them too, so shows how little they value my repeat custom.

dunc999, but they didn't cancel anything. Read ecureil's explanation above - it was a third party (ie the local Government) that shutdown all operations. They are probably just fighting tooth'n'nail to keep their business at the moment. This is what your insurance is for.
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@Gerry, glad you’ve remembered. Don’t let the door...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
SkiTurk wrote:
WILL NEVER USE CRYSTAL SKI AGAIN.Flew out To Passo Tonale Sat 7th Mch.Lifts closed sunday,taken to Madonna Di Campiglio sunday night.That closed monday.Flew home wednesday to 14 days isolation.Emails to Crystal ignored.Promised refund within 14 days,Not arrived. Mad


I hardly think resorts shutting down or self isolation is Crystals fault? They could have left you stuck in Passo Tonale on lockdown.
Have you checked your credit card, we were in Italy that week and refund on the credit card within 7 days of return, though no email to say it had been done.
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I'm going to sound really dull but at what stage do I go for a Section 29 for a refund on a holiday? Our chalet holiday to VDI at the end of April was cancelled 16 days ago & I have been in touch with the TO requesting a refund several times since then. Always fobbed off with another excuse.... The insurance company will not consider a claim until I get a letter from TO saying they will not refund but they are not prepared to confirm it on paper. So - do I qualify for a refund via credit card & how do I go about it? Thanks in advance for your help
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think we might be stuck in a loop, here. We, in this case, being those of us who had ABTA guaranteed TO holidays cancelled by the operator before departure. Being prudent, we booked ABTA holidays with TO, had comprehensive travel insurance with cancellation cover and paid by credit card. Belt, braces and more. It looks as if they are all expecting someone else to pay!

snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Anyone who's booked a ski holiday that's now been cancelled is due a refund ... and probably should already have received it unless there are some sort of exceptional circumstances. Deposits and payments are held - on a refundable basis - by holiday enterprises, in line with UK package tour regulations.
The shutdown of skiing in the Alps - France, Switzerland, Austria - was triggered two weekends ago (14-15 March) for the rest of the ski season, Italy having closed its resorts on Tue 10 March. The two-week duration between the shut-down and today is significant, in terms of refunds, as below.

The responsibilities of holiday sellers are clearly set out here ...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/02/coronavirus-travel-help-and-your-rights/#FCO

... including ...

Quote:
Package holiday cancelled? You're due cash, not vouchers - but that could be about to change
Currently, package holidaymakers whose trips are cancelled are entitled to all their money back within two weeks under package travel regulations.

Yet there are unconfirmed reports from travel expert Simon Calder that the Government will soon agree to changes to the package travel regulations which could mean companies will be able to issue credit notes instead of giving a cash refund. These credit notes, or vouchers, would enable the holidaymaker to book a new trip within two years. Any customer who does not redeem the voucher can then claim the sum in cash.

We asked the Government about this, and while it didn't confirm any details, it did suggest that an announcement would be made in the coming days. We'll update our site as soon as we know more.


From Simon Calder ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronavirus-travel-advice-holiday-refunds-flight-faq-a9418201.html
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
iomgirl wrote:
Scam wrote:
iomgirl wrote:
Thumbs down to Snowchateau - have absolutely flat out refused to refund us anything at all! Going to try and raise a dispute with ABTA
I just read their email. From the start they seemed a bit too quick for my liking to point us to insurance/credit cards.

That said, from the extra info given in the email- if that is passed along to your insurance company it should help the argument for a payout surely?


Hopefully.. One of our party is a lawyer so we are letting them deal with the correspondence!


Hi iomgirl - appreciate if you have any update from Snowchateux re their expenses ... as we’ve asked same (due to go 1st week of April). Chalet Staff/food/drink etc I’d assume haven’t been paid (and unfortunately in case of chalet staff likely let go). So to withhold 100% is taking the pi€€.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Hintertux April 2020 CPD L3-4 3-Day.
Got a full Course Fee Refund from BASI.
Well done.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As for getting your ski lesson refunded after the country is shut down:
I would suggest that you claim against your insurance.
If you had insurance, and they won't pay, then get that in writing and send the proof to your ski school. I'm sure that would go somewhere to resolving the matter.
Most of the UK-based ski schools will have had a meeting, and agreed not to do any refunds.
(They are concerned that some unscrupulous clients may claim against their insurance and also attempt to claim their money back from the ski school).
If you are un-insured, you can't seriously expect someone else to pay you back for the loss.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 30-03-20 14:49; edited 2 times in total
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SkiPresto wrote:

All the ski schools will have had a meeting, and agreed not to do any refunds.


??

Except for ESF, Prosneige (so some of the biggest ski schools) have agreed to give refunds.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Davina Goldballs, I am in a somewhat protracted correspondence with Sunweb in an attempt to obtain a refund, to which we are entitled in accordance with their terms and conditions. I have directed their attention to the ABTA website, in particular the section which contains the sentence you quote above - viz. "Any customer who does not redeem the voucher can then claim the sum in cash."

However, so far it appears that Sunweb are digging their heels in on this and are insisting on a "voucher only" scheme, with no offer of any cash refund in the pipeline at any time.

It seems to me that in these days of mass social media and instant communication an approach like this is remarkably short-sighted. Will any of their customers give them a positive review after this experience?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Yoda, it is likely that they don't actually have enough cash to refund people. A typical tour operator spends a chunk of their customers' cash before delivering the holiday.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hi Handy Turnip.
Thanks for your update. (I've edited my post to clarify that my knowledge is not comprehensive).

"Prosneige" is a French Ski School based in Val Thorens. I don't know any more about them.

The ESF, I believe, is part of a French Trades Union and as such operates quite differently to the Independently-run, UK-Based ski schools and freelance ski teachers working in France.

My comment was based on what little I have discussed privately and informally with British-Based independent ski schools.

My main point was that I suggested that people should claim losses via their insurance cover. Only then, send proof of refusal of insurance pay out to the ski school and see what can be done.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 30-03-20 15:02; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@snowdave, I think you are right. As I understand it most chalets are rented with 5 monthly payments starting on 1 Oct. So cash flow will be the killer here. Can't see many owners refunding. But they may be forced to offer 2 free months next year to get any chalet company tenants to renew.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
SkiPresto wrote:

If you are un-insured, you can't seriously expect someone else to pay you back for the loss.


There is nothing in principle wrong against self-insuring re (relatively) minor purchases. The more interesting thing with all this "claim on your insurance" stuff is whether the contract is void and the ski school etc has no legal right to retain deposited monies etc. I do know that generally law tends to favour consumers over businesses and it is equally pertinent to ask why the businesses didn't have business interuption insurance.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
.......it is equally pertinent to ask why the businesses didn't have business interuption insurance.

Post 9/11 most business policies have exclusions for closure by Govenment dictat and also pandemics.
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@spyderjon, Yes I know but many consumer travel insurance policies are equally flawed as most centre on the consumer's reason for cancelling and possibly the compensation for curtailment while on holiday not a provider's refusal to refund for a trip not possible to be provided or taken (on either side).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Just received an email from Ryanair, advising us of the cancellation of our 17 April Salzburg to Stansted flight. Full refund offered amongst the options.
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@snowdave, you may well be right, but from our point of view we have given them an interest free loan of around 2 grand only a few days before they cancelled our booking (and hence I do wonder if they have actually paid the apartment owner anything at all). They were quite happy to take the money at that time. As things stand at present we have no prospect of recovering the money.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Tour operators pointing people to their insurers are being totally scurrilous, dodgy, illegal even. Your travel insurance insures YOU for reasons why YOU might need to cancel your trip. eg you get ill or injured and can't go or a close family member dies suddenly or something along those lines. It is not cover for the operator's failure to deliver the services contracted for and paid for. That is unless you have purchased 'supplier failure cover' but what that actually applies to is usually if a scheduled airline goes under, and specifically that narrow circumstance. Package tours are of course covered by the Package Travel Regulations. I'll repeat what I've said previously - your tour op is legally obliged to protect your money until after the services have been delivered in full therefore they should still have it. Much in the same way a bookmaker has to protect your bet until the event has finished and the result ratified. It isn't your fault if the operator has been using your money to run the business. If they have then it is arguable that the Directors are personally liable. Vouchers will be worthless in many cases so the only option is to GET YOUR MONEY BACK.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
spyderjon wrote:
dunc999 wrote:
ecureuil wrote:
@dunc999, you don't give details of what happened, but as with others their argument is probably that they are no more at fault than you are. Rather a third party said the booking couldn't be fulfilled. They can, with some justification, claim that they made no modifications to it, so clause 7 doesn't apply. From their perspective, you haven't turned up for your holiday, so they could just as easily quote sections 8 or 9 (cancellation by client) to you, with a cancellation charge of up to 100% depending on how much notice you gave them!

How can you be sure that no costs were incurred? If it is their apartment, then presumably you expect them to still maintain some staff? If they lease it from a third party, do you know under what terms?

Having said that, if they want a good repuation I would expect them to offer credit note / reschedule, even if not for 100%.


Thanks for the reply - they closed their accommodation and cancelled my booking, but will not entertain a re-schedule (which I would have been open to) or refund. They do own their properties. I hope they are paying their staff until the end of the season, but it comes over as trying to keep the cash and let me sort it out myself and not sharing any responsibility to me. It would have been my third trip in a row to the same property booked through them too, so shows how little they value my repeat custom.

dunc999, but they didn't cancel anything. Read ecureil's explanation above - it was a third party (ie the local Government) that shutdown all operations. They are probably just fighting tooth'n'nail to keep their business at the moment. This is what your insurance is for.


I am pretty sure you will find that is not the way consumer law works. I buy a service, if you cannot supply that service for whatever reason, you have cancelled. The holiday / ski company would need to claim against the authority that closed them down, in this case I assume the french government.

I 100% get that this will close a lot of businesses down. That is not great, and may influence how much an individual may chase a refund. However, lawfully, the supplier has cancelled.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
A number of consumer media sites have updated their guidance about refunds in the past 24 hours, though the essentials are unchanged as things stand:

Which?
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/03/coronavirus-outbreak-advice-for-travellers/#money

Quote:
The law says you are entitled to a full refund, so don’t accept a voucher if you have any concerns. Which? Travel is lobbying on your behalf to ensure consumers are fully protected. We are calling on the government to provide the necessary funding to support companies at risk of collapse. We also want them to underwrite any rescheduled holidays. That would ensure customers still receive a full refund even if their provider goes bust before they have a chance to redeem their holiday.


Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/coronavirus-travel-advice-refund-flights-cancelled-ryanair/

Quote:
Some travel companies are offering customers credit to put towards a future booking with them rather than a refund. However this may not have the same protection as a booked holiday and if the travel operator later goes bust, your credit note could be worth nothing.

If you booked using a credit card, you may be able to recoup the money from your provider.


Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/30/coronavirus-travel-shutdown-your-rights-flights-tours-accommodation

Quote:
I booked a tour package, can I get a refund?
You are much better placed. If your holiday has been cancelled you should get a full refund.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I've been thinking quite a bit about this thread . . . and have managed to stay quiet . . . but there are a couple of observations that need to be made.
Absolutely everybody has been screwed by this situation and that is hundreds of thousands of people, businesses (big and small) whole towns . . . and yes, even that evil incarnate, the insurance industry.

BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.
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