Looking at planning a group trip to Hokkaido for 10 nights and trying to come up with a package that would suit our typical clients who are keen to ski off piste but maybe have a few weeks tops skiing powder. We won't be doing any skinning, but short boot packs into gated secured pitches, tree skiing and between the pistes would be in order. Probably would book a day or two of guiding with locals (attn: MikePow )to go a bit more remote to find the good stuff! I did 7 days in Niseko 7 years ago and enjoyed it but thought it was going too western/ big resort back then so am concerned about being based there the whole time and considering a two centre option. Looking for advice from anyone who has been recently before finalising the offering. Any recommendations or suggestions gladly received..
Accommodation - Group size will be at least 7 and up to 14 possibly. Self driving not an option and inter resort transfers would need to be sorted. Planning on self catering or B&B so we can keep it flexible for those looking for dinners out each night or those happy to stay in on the odd night. Have found some decent chalets in Niseko that look okay for our needs at MnK anyone stayed with them ?? https://www.mnkniseko.com/the-chalets-at-country-resort
Travel - The Finnair flights Thu 21 Jan - Mon 1 Feb 2020 look compelling to cut out the Tokyo-Sapporo leg so pretty sure we will base dates around them and take the public coach from Sapporo to Niseko to start the trip. now the million questions
1. Would you base in Niseko and do a few day trips, or, stay Niseko for 6-7 nights and 3-4 nights in Otaru/Kiroro/Teine area or possibly Furano? I am concerned 10 nights in one place may be too long but the aggro of upping sticks and moving to a commutable resort may not be worth the hassle. I am leaning towards 6 nights in Niseko to start and then moving camp for last 4 nights.
2. Assuming Niseko as first centre what would you say best second location to go? Be nice to sample each of Otaru/Kiroro/Teine but as they are all more than a few Km apart wondering without a car if is practical and if there are public shuttles (cant see any)
Furano looks cool but I know zilch about it.. seems good for a couple days but worried as looks primarily piste skiing, is there any in bounds / tree skiing? Perhaps a guided trip to Asahidake or nearby one day with a couple days in Furano ?
3. If a two centre trip would you bother doing a day trip to Rusutso from Niseko one day?
4. Always fancied Cat Skiing but looks pretty pricey for a day, 350-600gbp per person or am I getting that wrong? Was thinking making that an optional thing on a day off when based in Niseko
Have looked at various threads but they are either fairly old or more biased to self drive and touring skiing.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
just ticking this as it sounds like a trip that would interest me...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well just back to Serre Che after some 30hrs door to door travelling.
Only our second trip and I'm already thinking about how to make the next trip even better, and that's going to take some thinking.
Options are, go with another Local Guiding Tour Op, but be way more specific as to our needs, DIY trip, or a more custom orientated trip with the likes of a UIAGM guide going more off-grid.
Once my head is less fuzzier I'll do more of a detailed analysis of how I see the advantages/disadvantages of the above options.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Have stayed with MnK twice - what do you want to know?
The Tokyo Sapporo leg is easy-peasy, and there are so many onward connections on both ANA and JAL. We just did a 10 hour stopover in Tokyo on the way back to London and got to enjoy Tokyo without the hotel costs. Baggage is checked through on the way back to the UK, but on the way to Sapporo I agree it can be a bit of pain to have to re-check the luggage for the Sapporo leg. I have always seen the tokyo route prices cheaper than the Finnair option as well.
I would go and read the Japan 2019-2020 thread there is some discussion around trip planning and which to areas to stay in. But Niseko gives easy access to both Kiroro and Rutsutsu for day trips with the coach + ski pass less than the Niseko mountain pass.
When the snow is good 6 ski days in Niseko will fly by especially if you're planning to do cat skiing for a day, Kiroro and Rutsutsu.
I would highly recommend factoring in a mid-trip (weather adjusted) day trip to Otaru - Good Sushi, see some real Japanese Culture and also stop at Yoichi in the afternoon for the Nikka Distillery tour.
Furano is great, there is lots of lift-accessed off piste skiing available through the gates (it's unsecured though as it's outside the resort boundary), even more if you don't mind bootpacking a bit.
It's one of my favorite resorts in Hokkaido for easily accessed off-piste. It's popular, and gets tracked out quickly!
A transfer from Niseko to Furano will be expensive though, and takes ages. It's a 210km drive and you could be delayed significantly if it's snowing. I'm not sure if it's worth it when you only have 10 nights and there's other options closer.
Furano also gets less snow than the area around Niseko.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@extremerob, MnK wondering how good/reliable the shuttle is into ski station each day and if it works for getting out for evening meals/beers. the chalets look great but a bit remote. Good point re the day trips from Niseko in terms of ease and value.
I hear you on flights but we have decided to make this trip Hokkaido only without a sight see in Tokyo so leaning to finnair to keep transfers simple for the whole group. will have a day off mid week so an onsen day/whiskey tour/ Otaru mooch could work well for those that dont fancy skiing 9 days in a row..
@musehead, good to hear re the skiing in Furano but the more I look at it if we decamp for a second centre we pretty much lose a full day and then once in 2nd centre will most likely have short shuttles or transfers to contend with. Would be fine if self driving but may be aggro with a bigger group.
Anyone know if you can get a flexible 5 or 6 day pass in Niseko to accommodate day trips elsewhere?
After all it is free
After all it is free
So the shuttle bus works like clockwork.
You basically ring them up from the chalet and let them know what shuttle you want and they come pick you up. The stops in town and by the ski lift are always serviced on the time on the schedule.
I would say it is about 10-15mins depending on traffic / number of chalets people are being picked up at to get to town. You are right in the chalets are a bit remote, you cannot realistically do the walk on foot. That being said most of Hirafu runs on shuttle buses unless you are staying right in the centre of town so I don't really see it as a huge negative of MnK. Actually the reason we have stayed with them twice is the quality and size of the accommodation for the price. Its a deal that is hard to beat.
It can be a bit annoying at times with the fixed shuttle times either you're ready at 0800 or 0845 or you miss the morning shuttle and have to wait 45mins. Same to get home miss the one departing from the lift base and you're wating 45 mins for the next one. The last shuttle back from town in the evenings was at 2145 this year, which is arguably early if you want to go to bars etc. I am convinced when i stayed with them previously they had a bus at 2230. so it is something to consider as taxis in Niseko aren't cheap and you can wait up to 30/45mins for them sometimes.
For me the choice to stay with them again would be can I get better value accommodation closer to town, if no then stay with MnK again.
Nope its 8 in 10 for a flexipass, my advice would be to buy on the day. especially if top lifts get closed due to high winds. the Hirafu Hanzano only pass is 5700yen (if i recall correctly) vs an 8000yen all mountain pass. You're in japan and there for Powder, you want to watch the weather, last week there was 0cm in Niseko and 45cm in Kiroro an hour away, you need to be mobile and move with the weather for the best conditions. We decided the night before to go to Kiroro and it paid off.
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@extremerob, great intel.. cheers...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Thanks for all the comments. I have done a lot of ringing around and some further research. I think a two centre trip is no go for our group given we are lift assisted skiers, we would lose a day during transfer to second centre and the two places I had in mind really need a car to make the most of. So gonna base in Niseko and do three or four short day trips and buy passes as required.
5 days coaching/ guiding in Niseko
1 day skiing in Moiwra (20 min transfer)
1 day skiing in Rutsutso using coach transfer and local guide (1hr transfer)
1 day skiing in Kiroro using coach transfer and local guide (1hr transfer)
1 Option Day midstay - Cat skiing/Otaru visit, whisky tour/Free Ski/Chill out
Any thoughts? My thinking is Niseko easily has enough skiing for 5 or 6 days, we get in an "easy" day checking out Moiwra and do guided days in Rutsutso and Kiroro which aren't too far away and we could take the coach to get there. Not sure if better to hire a local guide in each resort, or to try for consistency and have one guide for all resorts so he/she gets to know the group.
Although pricey the cat day could make or break the trip so will research further and most likely put it on. Love that you can cater to all levels on the cat trips as they go to abandoned resorts with sort of pistes mixed in with tree skiing. sounds perfect for our type of skiers. For those that dont fancy it can always free ski or do the Otaru whisky tour/onsen/sushi
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Some general comments / observations plus specific recommendations.
There is more than enough terrain inbounds in the Niseko United Ski Area (Annupuri, Niseko Village, Grand Hirafu, Hanazono) to keep your group happy & challenged for the duration of your stay.
Add in the traverses and short bootpacks into gate accessed backcountry adjacent to the resorts and you'll have enough for a season.
However, the Grand Hirafu gateways are the busiest and can mean up to 40-minute queues at the start of the ski day. Or throughout the ski day if adverse weather closes down the upper lifts and access to the other areas of Niseko United.
This is a very real occurrence and your plan of buying lift tickets on the day is both smart and the way to go.
Moiwa is a small area adjacent to Niseko Annupuri (but not linked by lift pass) which runs a free shuttle to & from Hirafu village.
Rusutsu is a seperate area about 45 mins from Hirafu village. Daily buses drop you at West Mtn from where you can access the whole Rusutsu system.
Kiroro is a seperate area about 60-75 mins from Hirafu village. Daily buses drop you right at the front door.
All three areas can, and often do, have wildly differering conditions.
Sunshine and no new snow in Niseko could mean it's dumping at the other areas. And vice versa.
So choice of resort on any particular day is paramount to maximising your experience.
You've said you don't want to rent vans and drive, but for others thinking of heading to SW Hokkaido I can't stress enough that the flexibility your own transportation gives you can make or break your holiday. For some, a once in a lifetime holiday.
Companies which offer instruction and / or guiding at Moiwa, Rusutsu and Kiroro usually provide transportation as part of the package.
Don't be surprised if you end up staying & playing in Niseko Hirafu but skiing more at Moiwa, Rusutsu and/or Kiroro.
That's what happened to me this winter. More days at Rusutsu than Kiroro & Moiwa combined even though I have a season pass for Kiroro and Moiwa.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 22-02-20 9:32; edited 3 times in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If your trip is instruction focussed with an aim to get your customers transitioning from pisted terrain to off-piste terrain then a guide shouldn't be necessary.
You won't be racing to the steepest & deepest terrain straight off the bat, and the lift systems are very straightforward.
If you're looking to access the backcountry and provide 'tips & tactics' through the day, then a person with local knowledge will certainly pay dividends.
This has been the lowest snow year in this area in almost 60 years, with most complaining that snow conditions & coverage have been average.
I arrived on New Year's Eve, my first ski day was New Year's Day, and I've skied 44 days in the 53 I've been on 'Fantasy Island'.
The days I've taken off were because of adverse weather or conditions - high wind; rain; frozen, rock hard slopes.
Of the 44 days skied, 38 have been boot top powder or deeper.
With at least 1 'movie' day each week.
That's because I've -
Chosen the right resort on the right day;
Or skied parts of the resort which most people don't / don't know about based on my 12 winters here;
Or dialed the terrain challenge back because the snow was better on lower angle terrain.
That's not me showing off.
That's the lay of the land here. Which I'm sure is the same in mountain towns around the world.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
As to the two centre question, yes You would 'lose' a day travelling to Furano.
However, Otaru is only 90 minutes drive from Niseko Hirafu (60 mins on the train from Kutchan).
If you have transportation it's very straightforward to check out of your Niseko Hirafu accommodation at breakfast time; be in Kiroro an hour later for a day of skiing; then travel 30 minutes to Otaru and check in at your new accommodation before dinner.
No day 'lost'.
And Otaru offers a very different experience from Niseko Hirafu.
Plus it's closer to the airport when you leave.
From Otaru you have access to Otaru Tenguyama, Asari, Kiroro, Sapporo Kokusai, and Sapporo Teine.
A wide variety of skiing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
That's enough from me for now.
Look forward to your responses and further questions.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Cheers Mike, lots of great info there... If I was to go skiing in Niseko with mates I defo would hire a van and chase the snow checking out several centres but we will be a club group of 7-14 I wouldn't feel comfortable "nominating" drivers as it gets into tour operator territory. Looking at Otaru area it would appear that daily skiing requires several k's of transfers to get to each resort with no public transport similar to Furano so reluctantly would have to rule out.
I take your point about flexibility and other than pre booking a cat ski day I will try to keep things as open as possible. Will be doing the coaching and guiding in Niseko but to get the most out of a one day resort trip may consider getting a local to show us around. Keeping that flexible may be tough if we want to add a couple days of local guiding in Rutsutsu/Kiroro. I haven't skied those and as only gonna be a day in each would be a good idea to have someone with local knowledge show us around with our coaches backstopping and filming.
Will have to think about how best to offer local guiding as might prove tough to have someone good available on short notice over the week.
our skiers would all be capable of knee deep on piste or easy terrain and most would be up to steeps and tight tree lines
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 22-02-20 12:00; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Mike Pow, "we" or should I say @KenX, climbed Yotei, skied into the crater, climbed back out, skied back down,
had a few beers and then we still drove to Furano, so it's not exactly a days skiing lost unless like me you had a crocked knee
On the return leg, if you're on an early flight out of Sapporo then book the hotel at the airport, that way you'll save a lot of time and hassle.
We did the Cat Skiing passed on it this year, though I think for a group trip of mixed abilities like we were it's a must, though does get very booked up!
had a few beers and then we still drove to Furano, so it's not exactly a days skiing lost unless like me you had a crocked knee
On the return leg, if you're on an early flight out of Sapporo then book the hotel at the airport, that way you'll save a lot of time and hassle.
We did the Cat Skiing passed on it this year, though I think for a group trip of mixed abilities like we were it's a must, though does get very booked up!
However @skimottaret, I think your potential clients will like this read, how one of our group (two years ago) was nigh on terrified of off-piste and powder and by the end of the week she was skiing waist-deep.
Thank you for this link - I read it with great interest as for me this would be a ski trip of a lifetime with an ideal outcome. I don't have 30+ years experience and am still acquiring good technique, and my Santa Ana skis are the 93mm version, but I completely identify with "My biggest fear was falling and hurting myself. I can ski a whole season on the piste and rarely fall over. I don’t bounce so well these days!"
However I think skimottaret's group requires a greater degree of confidence at the outset than this describes.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Not read all the comments but Mike Pow knows better than most! Flexibility is key to getting best out of a trip over there. We started in Furano, did a bunch of other resorts and ended up in Niseko. The only thing I’d change if I went back (when I go back ) would be to avoid Niseko - least Japanese experience, over priced, massive rush for powder when it snowed etc. We hated it after 3 weeks in the other resorts!
slightly sobering reading with the IKON pass people getting 5 free days in Niseko sounds to have brought in some crowds. My last time skiing in Niseko was 7 years ago and was great but even then I felt was becoming more international and losing some charm. However the whole Niseko area offers more than enough skiing for 5 days and will be a good place to get into the deeper snow in the first few days and as a base gives us a lot of options. We will have a day of cat skiing and 3 days in nearby resorts so hopefully will be a good all round trip for our group.
ps. Although we won't be touring our guys won't be powder novices and the min standard for our group would be :
On Piste - I can comfortably ski all the pisted runs on the mountain under control and can pick my line down any piste. I am linking turns in fresh snow just off-piste." You can carve clean tracks on blue runs when the conditions are good with only a little skidding. You are keen to get better on icy pistes and in variable conditions. Your progress may be hampered by a lack of technique or fitness. You may be reliant on pushing your heels or picking up the inside ski to initiate your turns or have bad habits you struggle to break. You probably pick your way down moguls a few turns at a time and traverse really difficult areas. When you think you are carving you may not be actively piloting the skis. You may be thinking of taking an Level 1 Instructor course but are unsure if you are at the right standard just yet.
Off Piste- skiers with at least a weeks experience skiing moderate off-piste slopes (blue-red) confidently and comfortably. Able to link multiple turns in light, above boot height, powder snow on a uniform base. May struggle to link turns in poor lighting or variable snow conditions. Can manage easy untracked terrain in fresh light snow, or, hard but chalky snow without any obstacles to contend with. Has the fitness to ski off piste for a few hours and can get up unassisted after a fall in light snow.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@motyl, When I first went to Japan I skied Head Rev 90's and soft touring boots and this trip I will most likely bring Legend 96 in a 186 length. My Dynastar contact keeps trying to sell me some super cheap 118mm skis and I keep telling him no I am 100kg and 6'4" and beg to differ that a much lighter weight woman needs to be on 100mm plus skis. If you want to ski bottomless powder but only surf on top of it and feel like being on piste by all means get wide skis but if you want to be "in" the snow and grab some face shots go with your 93s
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
a much lighter weight woman
I'm still looking for her
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@skimottaret, IMO the average skier will get more face shots on a wider ski as they will be able to ski faster, get less tired (and have more fun). I was skiing Kastle TX 98’s in Japan and was yearning for my powder skis. All the other good skiers I was with were on 115-120’s.
Out of interest which wider skis have you tested?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
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skimottaret wrote:
slightly sobering reading with the IKON pass people getting 5 free days in Niseko sounds to have brought in some crowds. My last time skiing in Niseko was 7 years ago and was great but even then I felt was becoming more international and losing some charm.
I drove through a couple of times on this trip and it super busy, quite different from the other resorts on our trip.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
On the subject of teaching skiing and learning to ski, the Hokkaido resorts I've visited have been brilliant. Lovely, nicely graduated ground to learn on.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Dashed, same here we did same furano mt Tokachidake ,Ashadaki ect then to niesko did one day,long lines with hundreds of people boot packing the summit skiing off all my powder!!
Rusutsu was great and the mountain next to it mt shibutsu ?
Lessons learnt
1. Rent a car
2. Stay in towns not resort
3. Book last minute
4. Drink plenty water and less beer
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
BobinCH wrote:
@skimottaret, IMO the average skier will get more face shots on a wider ski as they will be able to ski faster, get less tired (and have more fun). I was skiing Kastle TX 98’s in Japan and was yearning for my powder skis. All the other good skiers I was with were on 115-120’s.
Out of interest which wider skis have you tested?
+1.
I took Rosi Soul 7s (106mm underfoot from memory). Definitely the narrowest skis on our trip and I wished I’d had wider. Powder was so light and deep that skiing narrower skis to sit “deeper” wasn’t necessary.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
BobinCH wrote:
@skimottaret, IMO the average skier will get more face shots on a wider ski as they will be able to ski faster, get less tired (and have more fun). I was skiing Kastle TX 98’s in Japan and was yearning for my powder skis. All the other good skiers I was with were on 115-120’s.
?
Apart from the obvious more float, what do you reckon a 115 ski would have given you over the 98s? (assuming they are 98 underfoot??). Last time I skied Japan I was on 110 Lhasa Pows, if I go again I think I'll be on a R.98 Whitedot
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I have some 115 K2 Coomback's - in hindsight I think I bought them more for the beautiful graphics of images in and around La Grave than a ski to ski as it were.
They're mounted with Radicals and I've done a fair amount of touring with them, but ever since I bought some Black Crows Atris 108 they've hardly been out of the garage.
I personally am happy with width around that mark and I do not feel I'm loosing out, and bear in mind I'm touring 90% of the time so it's all about trying to find the right balance. I did not feel my 105 Super Guides held me back at all on this last trip.
So I'm not too sure if there's a major difference between 98 and 105, I do know that my original Scott Missions at around 90 were distinctly lacking as I started to ski more demanding snow-pack.
As ever I do tend to base my gear based on the kit a few guides that I know use, and none of them skis anything larger than 110.
That said my OH loves her 110 Santa Annas
I'm at the SIGB ski test next week so will be interesting to see what the "fashion" is for 20/21 - all I know that the big Sk Rando shop here this season does not have any Rando Skis over 100mm wide.
And one last point doing a gnarly long run-out which is often the case can be a real PITA with wide skis.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
104's this time, 98's last time. Would have been happy on 90's. The only time I felt I needed wider was for a line in 'non japow' type snow.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@kitenski, float, speed, slarvability, basically everything I enjoy about powder skiing! It’s the combination of width and rocker. As an example this would have been so much more fun on the A124’s...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The boys I was skiing with were pointing and shooting on skis like these while I’m trying to keep up on straightish, flat tailed touring skis (albeit powder oriented). The difference is huge.
@BobinCH, It doesn't really look steep enough to ski properly no matter the kit (until maybe the last 15 seconds of the video). I ski 112 underfoot Volkl Katanas usually and I think i'd have barely managed to straight-line it!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@BobinCH, in all seriousness it looks too flat to have been much fun compared to what you normally ski??
After all it is free
After all it is free
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
On the subject of teaching skiing and learning to ski, the Hokkaido resorts I've visited have been brilliant. Lovely, nicely graduated ground to learn on.
Absolutely, I commented that many of the resorts would be perfect to send a first timer to...if it wasn't half way round the world!
In regard to ski width, we didn't really have big snow until the last day but I was on 106 and weigh 17st but didn't really feel I needed much more. However I'm not really that experienced off piste and have never skied much wider anyway, so don't have much to compare to.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Think about staying in Kutchan rather than Niseko of you want a more Japanese experience. It would also shorten your commute to other resorts and there are some great little cafes and restaurants now. Hannozono is going to be linked up to Weiss in the future but not sure whether that is by 2021. Moiwa will also be linked in to Niseko United but again not sure what year. Look at Par Powder Paradise too as an alternative to Cat - better to ring than to email.
100 is perfectly adequate. You only need more to avoid drifts, especially in Kiroro.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@musehead, @kitenski, video flattens the slope. Picked up plenty of speed in the tracks but move out of the tracks and the only way to keep the tips up is to lean back which anchors the tails. Look at the people on piste skis getting completely stuck. I‘ll leave it here but would recommend anyone skiing in Japow to take 120mm rockered skis for the proper experience. You will just have more fun
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
)to go a bit more remote to find the good stuff! I did 7 days in Niseko 7 years ago and enjoyed it but thought it was going too western/ big resort back then so am concerned about being based there the whole time and considering a two centre option. Looking for advice from anyone who has been recently before finalising the offering. Any recommendations or suggestions gladly received..
I am 100kg and 6'4" and beg to differ that a much lighter weight woman needs to be on 100mm plus skis. If you want to ski bottomless powder but only surf on top of it and feel like being on piste by all means get wide skis but if you want to be "in" the snow and grab some face shots go with your 93s 
