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Carv digital ski coach thoughts

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
colinstone wrote:
I had Carv from fairly early on, and had to buy an iPhone SE to use it. Useful. But signal cables inside the thick black carrier snapped twice. One insole replaced under warranty but when the second one went, I skipped the lot. If they can put the bluetooth into the sole, say under the instep, so the the only connection is power, then it could be more reliable.


The pod that clips to the boots isn't just a Bluetooth transmitter - it also contains the rechargeable battery, a number of accelerometers and gyro things and no doubt a processor to manage it all. I can't see they how they could get all that into the thickness of a boot liner. Then again, 10 years ago I could never have envisaged what we can fit into an iPhone Confused
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Spotted this thread as I one who started it. And it’s a useful reminder to get my carves out of attic and pop them on charge. Probably best to put some charge in the batteries as they likely won’t be being used for another 12 months Sad
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Handy Turnip, last Black Friday Carv had a 20% discount for 1 set; and 30% if you buy 2 sets. And the next Black Friday is November 26th 2021.

The current price is £349.00 GBP, so that would take it down to £279.20 GBP or £244.30 GBP each for 2 sets.

So hopefully they will repeat the offer next time. And if you were to buddy-up with another keen Snowhead, you could save 30%.
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Thanks @Poogle, good shout.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Actually, even though it won't work indoors at a fridge, I assume it'll still work at a dry slope as it's outdoors and will pick up GPS.

After missing a year of skiing, I'm tempted to do a summer of practice, and so maybe I'll throw in some dry slope sessions to give carv a go (if I decide to buy one that is!).
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I don't see why not. I may do a bit on the dry slope this summer, I should really as my closest is only 4 miles away...
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@boarder2020, If you join the fb Carv Skiers Community there's a discussion mentioning some of the metrics they use. It's way beyond my paygrade and I understand pretty much none of it but it seems to be so much more than foot pressure.

Here's an example

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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Scamper wrote:
... It's way beyond my paygrade and I understand pretty much none of it but it seems to be so much more than foot pressure. ...
I think the sensors are mounted in the boot, so it's hard to see how they could measure anything outside that frame of reference.
So whilst they may produce more metrics, they are all limited to that frame of reference, which I think is the point being made.

Whatever, the basic proposition is to get people to buy stuff because they believe will help them learn quicker.
For that you want people to believe the narrative, not to understand it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
philwig wrote:
I think the sensors are mounted in the boot, so it's hard to see how they could measure anything outside that frame of reference.
So whilst they may produce more metrics, they are all limited to that frame of reference, which I think is the point being made.

Whatever, the basic proposition is to get people to buy stuff because they believe will help them learn quicker.
For that you want people to believe the narrative, not to understand it.


There are 72 pressure sensors in the boot inserts, so they can measure where exactly the pressure is and more importantly, how it changes with time. Also, the boot attachment has an accelerometer, a magnetometer and a gyroscope so it's able to track boot angles and no doubt lots more metrics. Admittedly this is approaching the limit of my knowledge of how it works but I've used Carv since it came out and definitely seen improvement in my skiing.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
WiRED wrote:
I've used Carv since it came out and definitely seen improvement in my skiing.


As imperfect as it was last season this was my experience too. It really did help my skiing improve.
Before Carv I was skiing with no real focus or the ability to fix things myself.

Value for money versus 3 hours of one to one with a human ski instructor Carv wins.
That doesn't mean that I'll never have another ski lesson.
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Scamper wrote:
That doesn't mean that I'll never have another ski lesson.

I'm with you on that
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Handy Turnip wrote:
Actually, even though it won't work indoors at a fridge, I assume it'll still work at a dry slope as it's outdoors and will pick up GPS.

After missing a year of skiing, I'm tempted to do a summer of practice, and so maybe I'll throw in some dry slope sessions to give carv a go (if I decide to buy one that is!).


I was at MK this afternoon and saw the units on someone's boots. Got chatting and they now apparently work indoors, although the website still says no. He said he'd had his for about two years and the firmware update happened a couple of months ago. Will investigate further!
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Cheers @narbs for the update, really interesting. Suddenly the product becomes much more interesting! Let us know when you give it a go.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The insoles are too thick for my foot/boot fitting and cause too much pain to bother with, I've used them a couple of times but was in so much discomfort I took them out before getting any useful data.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
just looked on the website to see what the price is.

Struggled to find anything then found US price (USD 449 = ca £360), Australian price (AUD 199 = ca £105 but then seems to require you to have an annual subscription) but no Euro or GBP price, just something saying signup to a waitlist and get a discount.

anyone know, do they still sell in Europe? is it a one-off or subscription model ? seems pretty confusing to a simple soul like me...
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Handy Turnip wrote:
Cheers @narbs for the update, really interesting. Suddenly the product becomes much more interesting! Let us know when you give it a go.


@Handy Turnip I asked Carv about indoor use and they've told me that skiing detection does now works indoors for pressure/angle measuring etc, so drill are possible - any functionality that still requires GPS won't work, so things like speed and distance.

That's a big plus for me and I can see me giving it a go when the new one is released later this year.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
richb67 wrote:
just looked on the website to see what the price is.

Struggled to find anything then found US price (USD 449 = ca £360), Australian price (AUD 199 = ca £105 but then seems to require you to have an annual subscription) but no Euro or GBP price, just something saying signup to a waitlist and get a discount.

anyone know, do they still sell in Europe? is it a one-off or subscription model ? seems pretty confusing to a simple soul like me...


rich67 - there is a contact email address in the thread - https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=4565421&highlight=#4565421 - from teamcarv (who give their location as London..)
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just a quick update - I picked up my Carv units a couple of weeks ago. Thanks to Andrew at Ski Exchange in Cambridge for installing and setting up, and carrying out some boot work to ensure the correct fit.

Tried them out for an hour at MK and I think they'll be a great help in future, although I only did a 'record' session rather than listening to the prompts or doing any guided exercises. I found looking at the data afterwards really interesting. My fore-aft balance was better than I thought, and it confirmed that my l-r turn is stronger (which I knew). I'll try out the audio prompts next time and report back!
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@narbs, good update, keep them coming. The fact that you can now use these inside is a huge plus.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Handy Turnip, they are running a pre-season sale that concludes at 1000 Wed 7th Oct - https://getcarv.com/

Offer is £224 for device and 1 year of coaching - coaching then renews at £149 p.a. but you can cancel

or £273 for the device, 2 years of coaching - coaching then renews at £198 every 24 months (eff. £99 p.a.) but you can cancel

They will be at the National Ski Show not sure what sort of offers they may have there and product availability

Also they have run black Friday sales historically.
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Thanks @barracuda, that's great. Really appreciate that. I was just thinking about it last night, but was starting to think I couldn't justify the £350 price tag. £224 is much easier to digest! I'll take a look this morning.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Bought! Not sure what the 1 year of coaching gives me, but £224 is a much more palatable price.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
WiRED wrote:
philwig wrote:
I think the sensors are mounted in the boot, so it's hard to see how they could measure anything outside that frame of reference.
So whilst they may produce more metrics, they are all limited to that frame of reference, which I think is the point being made.

Whatever, the basic proposition is to get people to buy stuff because they believe will help them learn quicker.
For that you want people to believe the narrative, not to understand it.


There are 72 pressure sensors in the boot inserts, so they can measure where exactly the pressure is and more importantly, how it changes with time. Also, the boot attachment has an accelerometer, a magnetometer and a gyroscope so it's able to track boot angles and no doubt lots more metrics. Admittedly this is approaching the limit of my knowledge of how it works but I've used Carv since it came out and definitely seen improvement in my skiing.


Missed this before. For anyone that still cares:

Pressure is the key performance variable in skiing, so it's a useful thing to measure. The problem is that it's the end point of a very complicated chain. Carv metrics can tell you for example that your turn wasn't smooth or that you put too much/little pressure on part of your foot during the turn. It can't tell you what is causing this and how to fix it. It has no idea what your body is doing, just the final outcome of how that body position produces pressure. So say for example carv tells me my weight is too far back - do I need more knee flexion or is the problem with my torso positioning? Perhaps both?

Also the I used carv and improved argument. How are you defining improved? If it's simply by the carv metrics it may or may not relatemto actual ski performance. The other thing is you probably would have improved somewhat just by more time on skis. A RCT study carv, Vs human coach, Vs self guided learning would be really interesting study.

It's certainly not useless. It might even work to some degree. I just think there are potential limitations that need to be disproven in my mind. Although, if there are enough people willing to buy the product as is why would the company care.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:

It's certainly not useless. It might even work to some degree. I just think there are potential limitations that need to be disproven in my mind

@boarder2020, you can't start to question it within 30mins of me buying the bloomin' thing! Laughing Laughing Laughing

Seriously though - I completely agree with everything you've said. The study would be fascinating, especially if you factor in the different cost elements. I've no doubt that private lessons with a human ski instructor is the best way to improve, but it would probably also cost the most. It would be interesting to how far you can improve over the course of a few years with just the £224 investment for carv (over and above self learning/time on skis), and whether it effectively pays itself back compared to the cost of private tuition.

I haven't had a ski lesson in 10 years as I only get a couple of trips a year and they are social ones with family and friends, so am viewing it as a way of seeing if I can improve my skiing without impacting on holiday time. I'm not expecting massive improvements but I'm hoping that by having it constantly monitoring me in the background that I'll pick up where I've developed bad habits and where I can improve.

And also I love a gadget Laughing


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 7-10-21 13:05; edited 1 time in total
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Also just noticed that the early access price that was definitely only available 10am... is still there. Now that is a bit frustrating. Obviously the big threatening countdown clock has gone.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Handy Turnip, I'm not trying to rubbish it, it definitely has a place. I think time will tell exactly where that place is and just how useful it can be. My suspicion is a little useful, but not as good as the hype/marketing, and certainly not a replacement for human coaches.

Just the fact you know it's there analysing you probably has a positive effect (bit of extra concentration and thought about what you are doing).
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Handy Turnip, yeah just saw that too :/

FYI - the subscription starts when it gets shipped - give them a call / email and ask them to push it back to your first ski trip
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@barracuda, thanks I'll do that. What is the coaching subscription actually for?
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It looks like you have signed up for 149 pounds every year in order to get that price of 224.
Do they disable certain functions if you don't renew?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jimmjimm wrote:
It looks like you have signed up for 149 pounds every year in order to get that price of 224.
Do they disable certain functions if you don't renew?


Yes, that did give me a little concern and ideally I would have spent a bit more time checking t&cs. However, I only had a few minutes to get that lower price. Or so I thought... turns out I could have spent a few more days checking etc. Grrr!
















I'm happy that I can cancel at any time, so I'll check out the first year's coaching and see what it adds. I'll then cancel, as I can't justify £149 per year.

From the sign up page, it appears that you'll only lose the coaching facilities such as 'real time coaching' and 'coaching tips from world class skiiers'. I plan to have it working in the background, and view the data afterwards at my leisure, rather than use any active coaching plans (not sure how well they work when you're skiing with other people). So it'll still track my runs, and give the ski iq, and indicate where I'm skiing well or need improvement. And that's fine for me.
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Poster: A snowHead
I have had carv since March 2018 and have only tried the coaching once or twice as wearing a headset while skiing doesn't appeal. If I don't have to pay any extra I may give it another go, but I have been more than happy with just getting the data, and looking at the changes to the app in the last 18 months (since I last used it) it may well be that that is enough for me. As to value, if it engages you with your skiing, gives you focus and some feedback then it's well worth the money to me. I will continue to have private lessons every time I ski but I will also keep wearing my sensors as well. Oh and my experience of customer services (I think I have said earlier in this thread) is very good. My footbeds started to lose connection and they were replaced free of charge, when well out of warranty.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@pieman666, yes very similar to me

Quote:
wearing a headset while skiing doesn't appeal


I like to be aware of my surroundings, and am skiing with others so need to focus/communicate on where we're going so not keen on too many distractions.

Quote:

As to value, if it engages you with your skiing, gives you focus and some feedback then it's well worth the money to me.


I'm hoping just viewing the data will give me some real insight into my skiing, but even if having it makes me concentrate and focus on my skiing a bit more then it's all a win
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Apparently anyone that bought a Carv previous to the new membership scheme qualifies as Founder status so gets all the membership benefits for life for free - as a thank you for supporting them in their early days. Quite a nice touch - they would have paid more for the device but if the coaching element proves to be worthwhile then they'll have got themselves a bargain compared to those signing up later.

I understand that subscription models seem to be the way to go now, but I think their pricing structure will need to change. If I'm a member with the coaching subscription, then over 10 years it'll cost me nearly £1.6k. Which is absolutely nuts!

As mentioned, thankfully i've never been interested in it for those elements but I can understand that they might be quite important to others. And if they were nervous about buying it when it was £350, then they new pricing model will put them off completely. Surely, they needs to be different pricing levels. Feels a bit all or nothing at the moment.
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@Handy Turnip, thanks for that info, glad to hear I should have Founder status (I think I paid around £200 and in the second wave) it doesn't surprise me that they have done that as my dealing with them have been very positive.
I agree the subscription model seems off, especially as for most people skiing is a few weeks a year at most activity. If they did a monthly/weekly coach which could be dipped in and out of as for when you were actually able to use it.
Anyway I'm sure they will work it out.
At the ski test last night I gave my Carv a run out as it now works in snow domes. With no GPS it put all of my skiing into one run and I forgot to start it for the first half hour or so but it still come up with some figures and a judgement as to how I was skiing. Which from how it felt was a fair assessment as I was not skiing particularly well.
You could split it up manually by restarting every run, but that would be too much faff even with voice command support in my view.
I think my edge angle was probably read when I fell over....




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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Isn’t this all a bit nuts? Even us runners (I have all the running tech) don’t have anything like this, and we’re mental for stats, data and stuff. Is this really for recreational skiers, or athletes?
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@telford_mike,
I'm a recreational skier. Used Carvs for a season and found they really helped improve my skiing.
At that time they were a new product and quite glitchy but the improvements look to be good.
I had them on at skitest but didn't actually "use" them (just wanted to check they worked).
The stats are consistent with how (badly) I skied and the feedback helpful.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This is the type of feedback you get whilst skiing. Because the audio is in real time I find it useful.
.

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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Handy Turnip wrote:
Also just noticed that the early access price that was definitely only available 10am... is still there. Now that is a bit frustrating. Obviously the big threatening countdown clock has gone.


At least the early access price has now gone - looks like they've sold through their initial batch, so the new pricing is obviously not putting off too many people. Next batch not being sent out till November.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Handy Turnip, I think as you pointed out no one has quite seen this as a continual long term investment, the beauty of subscription models, - in my mind it was I want to try this and the buy-in was not so high as to discourage me - I got the two year package as it is the most economical long term option - now I may very well consider that it is not worth continuing to pay the £99 p.a. if I dont feel it has helped improve my skiing.

Hoping to test this at the PSB and get a good week of piste skiing on them - tough I am in two minds as per the pricing - ski instruction is not cheap - at £99 a year it is cheaper than a halfday with an instructor in a private lesson. As a beginner is this going to replace the ski instruction no - as an intermediate will this maybe help you learn faster, and need less 1-2-1 or group lessons - not sure. As an advanced skier is the data and feedback enough and a friend filming you and you do not need a private lesson - the jury is out on that.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Looking forward to trying mine indoors. Carv have been excellent with customer service fixing an insert issue I’ve had so I’m pending a replacement this week. My wife had hers running on a lesson with insideout this week and it was interesting to look at the data in conjunction with the lesson. it was limited due to the one long run for the whole session but still good to look at synergies. I think we were probably searching for those rather than seeing them jump out.

Stomp it tutorials do some good reviews / sessions on YouTube. It’s a little bit adverty but I love their stuff and I can see there’s a role there. I do think though would be an instructor overview option. How cool would that be to have your coach having that additional input. Although I’m pretty sure any instructor can probably use their eyes better Smile

If mine broke I’d replace them in a heartbeat because although direct coaching knocks it out of the water you don’t have that all day each day so it’s a great supplement.

Hopefully I’ll have mine up and running in hemel soon and will feedback on drills.
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