Driving to Alps in electric car

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@stuartrose, it's interesting that on your plan the "free fuel" has cost you €68, or €0.09 per mile. It's not exactly equivalent to a tank and a half of diesel, but as the diesel is likely to be around £110 for that sort of journey, the saving isn't quite as big as you'd think - approximately half the fuel cost.

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You re-charge through re-gen from the electric motors on the way back down the mountain!! Toofy Grin

In all seriousness, as snowdave says the pull up the mountain does use a lot of energy (but the Tesla, at least, takes terrain into account in range estimation through the onboard SatNav / computer).
We were able to re-charge slowly during the week via a socket in the apartment's underground parking - which was absolutely fine (albeit French electrics are another subject!). You do tend to proactively stay in places that can accomodate EV charging - and most places currently are happy to help - even if only finding you a 13amp socket.
As an alternative there are SuperChargers further up the valley passed Albertville - so you could top-up close to destination if desired.
Sasha - my wife and I share the driving. We generally find the need to stop and charge the car helps keep you re-freshed as well.

Driving long distances in low temps reduces range by about 20% as mentioned above - as you have to heat the cabin (no waste heat from an engine) and initally the battery as well (both these affects can be reduced by pre-conitioning the car while plugged in and using mains power). However once up to temp then the ongoing draw is much reduced. Wet weather does also have an impact (increased friction on the tyres/road I guess).

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@snowdave, thanks! Interesting reading. I’d not thought about the ‘investment’ of hauling the car up the hill and the benefits accrued at the end of your ski holiday (though I’m quite aware of the impacts of big hills on ICE consumption). I teach (B)EV business model innovation (amongst other things) so some food for thought here with your own and Lozza’s posts. Thanks.

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wouldnt things like lights, heating, AC, window demisters, etc. eat into the battery range?
Then what about doing the same trip in 3 or 4 or 5 years time when the battery degrades & you loose 10%+ range, might throw in extra charge stop.

Its doable, but at some stage, your weekly ski trip may turn into a 10 day jaunt.

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@Mr.Egg, at motorway speed the motor is drawing about 15kw so most other things like lights and radio are irrelevant. Heating and AC depends on the car - mine draws under 1kw but I think the tesla is 3x that. Worst case it's 10% off the range but I think that's already in the WLTP range figures.

You know it makes sense.

Been watching quite a few vids on YouTube on EV cars since I started this topic where there is a lot of good content, reviews and endurance runs. The Mercedes EQC looks good as their first major dedicated EV release which seems to compare very well with the Tesla X, Audi Etron and Jag i-pace(?) and has fast charging form the Ionity network available along the French autoroutes. All very capable of getting to the alps but probably add 2-3 hours to a conventional car plus some careful planning. Mercedes is rumored to be releasing a long rage full EV e-class estate version in 2022 which is the one I will have my eyes on assuming the current rate of progress leading to shorter journey times.

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So how are the Teslas with coping with being parked in cold/ ski resort conditions for a few weeks ? Does the cold have noticeable on the battery life ?

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Nuclear isn’t problem-free when you consider the cost, the time it takes to build new power stations and the disposal of spent fuel. One of the issues has been people’s fears about accidents leading to a very protracted commissioning process, not helped by the Germans panicking after Fukushima proved its safety & totally irrationally closed all of theirs.

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@Judwin, I think you answer your own question about 83 vs 110GW. The 110 is Gross installed capacity, the 83GW adjusts for the fact that a chunk of the capacity cannot deliver reliable output so its Gross output is dialled back by just over 50%.

To me, the main thing that actually matters when it comes to capacity planning is the nighttime demand vs total capacity, since most of the charging takes place at night. The fact that nighttime electricity is less than half the price of daytime electricity would suggest there's still a lot of spare capacity at night.

I count night as 11pm to 6am - I've never watched Corrie, but I doubt those are the broadcast hours!

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@snow_badger, no, the battery doesn't go flat in the cold tho' it does lose a little charge - we can leave our car parked outside for 2 weeks whilst on holiday and it loses at most a few percent. I don't even think of trying to park at a charger at the airport when leaving it there.

Teslas have a _bit_ more of a problem with this, in that the car is constantly actively managing the battery and electronics, thus causing "phantom" drain whilst parked. However, this still shouldn't flatten the battery, and it is possible to put the car into a lower power sleep mode.

I wouldn't want to arrive in resort with 3% charge left, then park the car up with no access to charging at -10C for a week. With 20% left I'd have no concerns. That said, I'd be unlikely to arrive somewhere for an extended stay and not find a way to put the car on charge, even via a 3 pin plug, such that it was fully fuelled for the journey home. One of the clear benefits of an EV is the ability to do other stuff (like go skiing!) while it refuels.

"My car (a battered old 2001 3.0L Vauxhall Omega) averages about 30mpg on a trip down to Tignes from Somerset"

And a modern diesel, say a Golf, will do 68mpg on that run. I know; we have one in the family.

When you get to the stage where you stop at a petrol station just once a month, the case for going electric is somewhere south of zero. And you have a car which doesn't have a range issue.

"They are very popular in Scandinavia and as such must not be a big issue."

The batteries are heated (temperature controlled) - at least in some cars I have seen the innards of.

"The fact that nighttime electricity is less than half the price of daytime electricity would suggest there's still a lot of spare capacity at night."

Economy 7 (or whatever it is called now) isn't just cheaper at night. They sting you for more during the day Smile

So it is not a win-win. You have to weigh it up. OTOH, clearly, most people charging at say 10kW would go for it.

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Don't even need to hold the trigger on German or Austrian petrol pumps cos the latch works on them Smile

I'm waiting for micronuclear reactors in cars.

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@andy, that's probably the long-term answer to the propulsion question, and for those asking why I'd be happy driving around with a reactor under the bonnet, I'd point out that you currently drive around with ~50 litres of highly flammable petrol or 300Kg of lithium batteries which can explode or catch fire, and some are suggesting that high pressure hydrogen could be the answer NehNeh

To go back to first principles, if you were asked to design a transport system from scratch which could cope with short local journeys as well as long distance travel, putting a random human in charge of a vehicle which they have to steer and stop in an environment with other moving vehicles, pedestrians and animals is not where you'd start. The long-term answer is to start again, and design for the future, and that means a state owned and operated system (or a global company or network of companies with agreed standards) and either rail-based travel or some form of tunnel/tube with computerised traffic control. You get in the first available "car" having requested it online and paid in advance, and it takes you to where you want to go, whether that be Swindon or Switzerland. In a controlled and automated system, speeds can be higher, and so can the comfort levels if you are prepared to pay for it. Imagine the Internet, but for transport...

That ignores the little matter of what we call "countryside". It is a weird place. Most city people avoid it like the plague, except when looking for a country pub. There is usually no 3G, let alone 4G. Few petrol stations and zero electric car chargers. No buses, so you need a car to get around. The roads are full of potholes, too.

If you planned your route for the Tesla "just right" and then ended up in this strange place called "countryside", with the battery gauge getting lower and lower, what are you gonna do?

I know somebody who had a Tesla for a bit and loved it, and would have one, but then he's got a 3 phase supply at home - 3 x 35mm2 so probably good for 70kW. Paradoxically, it is easier to get 3 phase out in the sticks because most of the distribution is overhead, so they charge you 1-2k to run some wires down to the house.

Anybody driving a Tesla all the way down through provincial France etc is very brave. The place looks like this and it goes on for hundreds of miles

You know it makes sense.

@ousekjarr,

Personally, I wonder whether the future isn't simpler - autonomously driven hire cars powered by mix of batteries and fuel cells. Computer control could allow them to drive bumper to bumper saving road space and drag. It's just a less capital intensive and more flexible solution. On balance I agree with the decision in HS2 but I am a little nervous that by the time it is finished, networked autonomous cars may have made it redundant.

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I know EV's are an emotive subject and people don't like change.
They work differently from a petrol / diesel car, but they do work. I've driven just over 42,000 miles in two years and two months of owning an EV and not had a problem.
You can always find electricity - even in the countryside! wink

I've charged the car fine on trips to Norfolk, Peak District, Wales, and Lake District. I think there are more chargers now then fuel stations.
I think most cars spend, is it, 98% of their life parked so charging really isn't a problem. Every day you wake up to a 'full tank' of fuel.

It is the current cost to buy EV's that is the main stumbling point I think - the premium over a petrol/diesel car is still too great.
I know people focus on the edge case uses and thus the one or two long journeys they may do a year. I guess anyone over 50 years old won't have to drive an EV if they don't want to as petrol/diesel cars will still be around for another 25-30 years. Smile

In terms of reliability / longevity - Tesla Model S has been available in the UK since 2014, so 6 years now, and the 6 year old ones I believe are still running fine. Nissan Leaf has been available since 2011 I think.

Regarding comments on the National Grid, there's a lot of urban myths touted around. The National Grid says we have enough generating capacity today to deal with 25 million EV's for link see here as peak demand at 62GW was back in 2002 and has dropped since then to 52GW - so 83GW of current capacity is sufficient for demand by 2030-2050. They also recognise the need for infrastructure - and so I'm sure things will develop. In London they are already installing on-street charging in lamposts for example.

In terms of the current drawn when charging at home most cars can only draw 3.5kW or 7kW AC as this is done by car's own onboard charger (a few exceptions have higher) - so higher capacity supplies and/or three phase are not necessary.

I have my doubts about autonomous driving. My car supposedly has (some) self driving capabilities and Tesla have been promising more for the last six years (without success), but I just think self driving cars strugge to cope with anything other than straight forward motorway driving.

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Yikes and includes autopilot!

https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/31/easyjet-reveals-electric-plane-will-make-flying-greener-cheaper-12158513/

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@stuartrose,

On National Grid, in truth it depends WHEN cars will be charged. It's fine if people don't want to charge them in the early evening when they get back from work (i.e., the peak).
We actually don't yet know how people will behave at scale but NG is doing research on this because it really makes a difference to how much peak capacity we need.

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@Pamski, the most surprising thing about this thread. You were shopping in Lidl Very Happy

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This thread has been quite interesting to me, not least because one reason we currently don't have an electric car was due to range anxiety. I fully expect our next car to be electric, though currently running a fairly efficient petrol Golf 2011 that I think should go for a few years yet.

It sounds like the range and infrastructure problems, especially here in Austria and surrounding countries, won't be an issue at all by then, which is good. It doesn't sound too bad now tbh, but I do not have the cash or inclination to change my car right now.

Charge at home infrastructure is the other problem. I live in a flat with underground parking, but there is no power access in there at the moment so we'd have to ask the landlord to install it. In the UK, I lived in a Victorian terrace with limited on-street parking. Installing charging points there would reduce the available parking spaces by about half, so from that point of view probably wouldn't be popular amongst residents. I think a dedicated carpark outside the village with changing points would be a better idea, although I think drive-on-demand pool cars will be the way it eventually goes anyway.

@jedster, I don't know if it's still on, but there was an exhibit at the Science Museum in October about self-driving cars that was quite interesting. I agree about when rather than if, and personally, I can't wait!

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It will take a shift in mindset away from the current ownership model but agree with @scarlet for the medium-long term future=

"drive-on-demand pool cars" - But in conjunction with autonomous driving.

You have a choice of subscription service that provides a range from basic/local miles /small car through a whole range of options to a top end standard of car that's cleaned by a network of gig cleaners between every client and unlimited mileage. Long journeys can be facilitated by faster chargers / car hopping at handover points all calculated by the software.

You call up a car by app, it arrives self-driving within an SLA time for that subscription, you get taken to your destination or possibly can still opt for manual control. If sub allows you have a large long distance vehicle for the odd outlier journey to the alps.

Subscription service is kept affordable as a car's utilisation goes from 2% to say 75% (100% minus cleaning and charging time).

Hardware is pretty much there now with Amazon/Google/Uber/Tesla for autonomous driving. Maybe another 2-3 years of data and improvements needed. Main obsticle is the legal and ethical issues and resulting government policy.

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I think it's worth noting that autonomous driving is independent of electric cars, it's become closely linked because of tesla, but autonomy can be achieved independent of drive train.

We have level 2 autonomy on our car (i.e. It steers and controls speed but driver needs to be attentive) which makes a huge difference in long journeys. In normal motorway driving I probably only have to intervene once every 5-10 minutes. It makes me a much better driver by freeing me up to concentrate on the bigger decisions and looking further ahead. I wouldn't buy a car without it now.

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@snowdave - agree it's agnostic to drivetrain but the reason I linked the two in terms of how I think it will play out beyond the medium term, is that full autonomy does solve many of the BEV issues around charging and long journeys that people have cited here.

@ousekjarr, that was already tried, tested & ultimately made obsolete by the private car. No point looking backwards for solutions to future problems. If you live in a town then most of your transport needs can be met by trains/trams. Out in the country they’re useless.

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@Gordyjh, as a fen dweller, I tend to agree, but the biggest problem around here is non-autonomous cars with drivers going off the road into water filled ditches or fields. Self-driving cars are not yet in a position to spot black ice or a smear of mud across the road, and once they hit it all they can do is give an electronic shrug and deploy the airbags. If there is a better approach, it has to involve some form of constraint on the vehicle whether that involves rails, guide wheels and larger kerbs, or whatever. We've spent billions over 120 years putting tarmac down to allow cars to go across fields, and it wouldn't be such a huge ask to add a kerb on the outside edges of all of them and down the middle of the road and then mandate all vehicles to have guide wheels. It works for guided buses as long as the driver keeps within the speed limits, and can work for automated cars if they can cope with entering and exiting each stretch of road.

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Driving to Alps in electric car

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