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Why Ski Resorts Are Dying (US)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead

http://youtube.com/v/AVSjsYHX6eM
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The narrator's upward inflection renders this unlistenableto.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@red 27, It's like sooo diffi-cult Laughing
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
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red 27,

What upward inflection? Puzzled

Following your comments I expected a (false) Aussie-like sense of surprise at the end of each sentence - but heard nothing like that.

Interesting video IMO.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I didn't want to waste data by watching the whole thing but the increase in the UK population is possibly a reason for the lack of younger people going skiing.

Increasing population = greater demand for housing = higher prices = less money for younger people to go skiing.

Ironically, if Brexit has best case scenario and fewer people move to the UK and the economy doesn't take a hit, younger people that are not on the housing ladder will benefit from lower house prices as demand falls.

Personally, I'm over exposed in the property
market and poo pooing myself, I'd seriously consider selling everything I have and move into rented at the moment.

I hope I'm wrong.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Opening the video with the Novele Grand Hotel is a disingenuous way of making the point. I know that area. It's quite a stretch to call it a "ski area" - just a hill with a lift. Its history and demise reflect the changing economics of the Catskill Mountains in southeastern NY State... think Dirty Dancing or Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. New Yorkers stopped vacationing at the Clubs and Casinos in the Catskills a long time ago. A slightly better example would have been Mt. Beacon ski area, which had a legitimate ski area, funicular, and summit Casino. But that area closed in the 1970s.

Television, video games, cell phones... no surprise young people are engaging in outdoor activities less often these days. And only rich people can afford skiing anyway.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Upward inflection? Not as annoying as the vocal frrrrrrry.

But yeah; less disposable income for millennials = less people participating in seasonally affected costly pastimes .
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
If the ski passes prices are anything like Canada (£750+ per adult for 10 days) and ski hire £300+ per adult for 10 days, I’m not surprised though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Another video if anyone is interested in the business of a ski resort:


http://youtube.com/v/vpcUVOjUrKk&t=522s
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Something I posted last year

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=147850&highlight=closed+ski+resorts
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:

If the ski passes prices are anything like Canada (£750+ per adult for 10 days) and ski hire £300+ per adult for 10 days, I’m not surprised though.

'ain't that the truth!

Why people return to Whistler from the UK is beyond me. Horrendously over priced in resort for lift passes, accommodation, food&drink etc, long queues, expensive and time consuming flights + jet lag for a ski resort offering only which IMO was only marginally 'better' than the European Alps.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The biggest factor, IMO, is that millenials have just different interests. Gen X'ers didn't seem to pass along the passion for the sport like boomers did with their gen x children. Add to that how much it costs to ski in America, and it adds up to less skiers.

But there are discussions on other blogs about how much impact the Epic and Ikon passes have had on those participating ski resorts. More boomers, who are retired and retiring that are skiing more at these resorts. Gen X'ers are now taking that once a year trip to one of the Epic or Ikon pass resorts. I don't see skier visits increasing because of these passes. We shall see.

I personally think that in the North America ski market that as boomers age out and injuries prevent a desire to ski, it will be the end of an era of skiing.

I can only look at anecdotal cases. My older brother has 4 boys. Only 2 of them continue to ski. I have a millenial co-worker who took 5 lessons last year, but isn't skiing this year. I suspect that this will be the trend for the foreseeable future.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The US ski resort industry will grow +2% to $3b in 2020.

It is doing good.

https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/ski-snowboard-resorts-united-states
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It seems to me that skiing and snowboarding have lost out to other sports, amongst young people.

Rock climbing, for example, has become hugely popular these days.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
charrison wrote:
It seems to me that skiing and snowboarding have lost out to other sports, amongst young people.

Rock climbing, for example, has become hugely popular these days.


Maybe. Ditto mountain bike riding, but those 2 are more summer pursuits, so not mutually exclusive with skiing. The same is possibly also true of road biking - now huge in Australia, but less popular in winter than the other 3 seasons, despite our relatively mild winters.

In the Arlberg, I have observed a growing trend to short stays, eg 3 to 4 “long weekends”, increasingly displacing the formerly ubiquitous Saturday to Saturday weeks. No idea why. Economics? Increased job / career focus? Or... simply a shorter attention span in millenniums? Don’t know.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It's just too too expensive, youngsters just can't spare £1k for a CHEAP ski holiday.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
marodo2712 wrote:
It's just too too expensive, youngsters just can't spare £1k for a CHEAP ski holiday.


Not relevant really, as most folks in the US tend to ski little and often rather than a week all season.
Rock climbing, mtn biking etc are summer pursuits and are often skiers, snowboarders looking for outdoor pursuits to do and stay healthy during the summer months.

But a lot of younger people just don't do activities these days, so it probably doesn't appeal. Or its something they did with their parents but don't feel the urge to pursue later in life. Obviously money will influence this - education costs and housing etc.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Personally I think it comes down to cost. In the US and Canada it is stupid expensive if you don't have a season pass. Accommodation is crazy and so is food. Conditions can be variable so you could spend an entire week in rubbish weather. On the other hand, beach holidays are far cheaper, weather ( in the right areas) will 99% be sunny and pleasant.

In Europe there are very few cheap places to stay for single young people. Hostels at resorts are very rear. At least Canada does cater for that far better than Europe. Even I have started weighing up if ski holidays are worth the money. I have been skiing for 25 years and love it , however with the rubbish seasons over the last few years I do ask myself is it really worth £1500 for 1 week ( cheapest off piste guided week) and potentially have horrible snow all week. I know that's the way the cookie crumbles with skiing, it can be awesome or really bad. However, I know I can spend a lot less and go mountain biking in the Alps during summer and have a great day, everyday - which I have done for the last two years. Praying the snow improves this year to warrant a trip in early March!
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Quote:


The US ski resort industry will grow +2% to $3b in 2020.


Steady state at best... what is inflation running at?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
When my wife and I bought our first house as graduates, the mortgage I needed was on a multiple of 3x my salary. If I graduated now, we'd have a joint graduate debt of at least £60K and we'd need a mortgage of 8x-12x our combined salaries. There was a stock of affordable rental housing (council flat) that let us rent for 3 years and save for a 10% deposit. Those council houses got sold off at a massive discount by the Thatcher government to buy votes and now we're 1m affordable homes short.

So I'd agree - the current generation of youngsters simply don't have the disposable income that we did. I see skiing on track to be the sport of the affluent, as it once was. And if cheap air fares disappeared, that would clinch it.
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Like many equipment based sports skiing requires a significant amount of commitment in time and money to get to a level of competence ... sailing and golf are both suffering because of this squeeze.

I am not sure that skiing is perceived as being particularly "woke", so if kids are prepared to give up meat, I am sure that they will be prepared to not participate in skiing, given the carbon footprint of the travel and skiing infrastructure.

The youngsters that I see in the resorts that I go to are the children of wealthy parents, so don't represent mass participation going forward.

I also wonder if the school ski trip is as big a phenomenon as it used to be, given the risk averse world that we live.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think the market will split, where big name, big money resorts will reap the benefits of collective ownership and Ikon/Epic passes. They can continue to invest in snowmaking and infrastructure, while independents will struggle to keep up and go into a death spiral. The effect of global warming means that resorts will need to squeeze every last penny out of visitors as seasons get shorter, and a place like Vail is uniquely equipped to do that, while a family spot in the Poconos that attracts locals on season passes who brown bag their lunches isn't.

TBH if I lived in the US I probably wouldn't bother skiing anywhere other than the West. It's not worth the hassle and cost.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
There are many activities which are seeing a gradual rise in the average age of participants, and with little young intake to replace those who leave due to factors like ill health, lack of money (retirement), etc.

Each activity has a forum Smile and each of these discusses what can be done about it.

It's hard to get the "young" outdoors, for a start. Social media is hugely addictive and is sucking out a massive amount of time out of each day. And if you don't "get out" regularly you won't have basic fitness and won't feel like going skiing which is

- physically somewhat demanding (walking around in lead boots, etc)
- damn expensive
- needs lessons (expensive)
- risky, especially for the young who tend to do more risky stuff
- needs a whole week out (flights, reasonably priced shuttles, etc, dictating this)
- not social unless you can get a group together (easier to get pi***ed in Austria but many resorts have nothing in the evening)
- needs some level of personal organisation (if you live at home, that's generally done for you)

The social side in particular is the key to getting new people into it. Many people have commented to me that they are amazed how little there is at most ski locations, apart from skiing.

The life of a young person (say under 30; after that they tend to get into "family life" and then everything hits the buffers because you run out of time and run out of money at the same time) is quite transient from one year to the next. I see this in my kids. They might be fanatical about downhill biking but only for a couple of years. The ski industry cannot run on such a transient audience. It needs people who go every winter and dump a load of money each time.

It makes no difference whether a ski pass is 100 or 300 quid for the week. It might matter to a family of 4, perhaps, IF they drive all the way from their home to the resort (as many do, especially in France).
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@Peter Stevens, and others are right about the allure of social media and video games. those activities require virtually no money and suck up unbelievable amounts of time. (Says a guy posting on an internet forum when he should be working)

It's not just skiing that is seeing declines, but other traditional pastimes that you can do your whole life like tennis and golf are hurting. But others are doing quite well -- surfing, rock climbing, road cycling. Skiing's Achilles heel right now is probably cost, tbh, but it's also extremely equipment heavy and skis don't have the geek factor that a carbon fiber road bike does...
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It seems to be similar in many countries with ski resorts (USA, France, Austria etc) i.e. skiing business is growing but smaller/lower resorts are closing.

https://www.ispo.com/en/markets/ski-market-austria-growing

https://www.vanat.ch/ski-resorts-english

Suspect a lot is to do with climate change. A few local resorts had bumper seasons last year but have not opened this year. As this is the main holiday week in Austria then they probably won't open at all now this season. Could it also be that now so much info is communicated via social media that people tend to be mainly interested in the major resorts? The small resorts that nobody has ever heard of or that don't turn up in a search machine get left behind. People are looking for the biggest or best hence the reason many resorts are linking together to say they have the most piste kms, it's survival of the biggest.
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Yes, it is equipment-heavy, and the equipment you have just bought can't be tested until your next ski trip. Whereas a bike can be ridden anytime. And the UK has very few ski shops. So the "instant satisfaction" aspect, which is important to the young, isn't there.

I also think the ski related social media scene is quite macho. It is equipment equipment equipment kit and more kit, and if you can't or don't want to ski blacks, or off piste, you are a wimp / must have more lessons. So if you might get into skiing from that angle, it's not particularly welcoming. Boys probably don't mind that too much... but without girls, not many boys will go skiing, and that very same factor is affecting a lot of other activities.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
From anecdotal observation a lot of this doesn't apply in France. There are plenty of young families skiing in the winter, enjoying the same mountains in summer, and loads of kids sailing - you see them on Lake Annecy, obviously school groups on week days (kayaking too), and in seaside resorts in, for example, Brittany. You also see girls, as well as boys, out mountain biking in summer.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
That's probably because the activity is a lot more accessible there.

Generally, the more accessible (in all respects, that is) an activity is, the less tendency there is for people to turn it into an "institution".

Also the French rarely leave France for their holidays, so it all works together nicely.

For N Europeans, Brits especially, going skiing is hard work.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
$200 a day lift pass, $80 a day ski hire. It would seem obvious why numbers are shrinking even though revenues may be going up. A week's lift pass in Vail costs more than my season pass, a week's ski hire costs more than I paid for my skis. I wouldn't pay that much to ski and I love my skiing, what chance is there of tempting new people into the sport?.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Peter Stevens wrote:
n".

Also the French rarely leave France for their holidays, so it all works together nicely.
.



That may have been true 20 or 30 years ago but not now. You only have to look at the expansion of Lyon airport, and over Christmas and New Year the car parks are packed with French cars, the owners of which have gone off to more sunny climes. They will be packed over the half term as well. Have a look in a french travel agents window too Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Timc wrote:
$200 a day lift pass, $80 a day ski hire. It would seem obvious why numbers are shrinking even though revenues may be going up. A week's lift pass in Vail costs more than my season pass, a week's ski hire costs more than I paid for my skis. I wouldn't pay that much to ski and I love my skiing, what chance is there of tempting new people into the sport?.


Does anyone pay day ticket rates in the US nowadays? And if so why.
I’ll be there in a couple of weeks for a skiing holiday and will average less than $30usd a day visiting iconic resorts like Aspen, Alta, Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Big Sky.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
sbooker wrote:


Does anyone pay day ticket rates in the US nowadays? And if so why.
I’ll be there in a couple of weeks for a skiing holiday and will average less than $30usd a day visiting iconic resorts like Aspen, Alta, Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Big Sky.


I guess the disorganised and the price insensitive. Even most short notice vacationers will score some sort of discount bundled with accomodation. I heard a college kid at Vail once bemoaning the fact that he thought he'd lucked out when a mate invited him to stay at his uncle's condo at New Year, but then could only afford to ski 2 of 5 days
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sbooker wrote:


Does anyone pay day ticket rates in the US nowadays? And if so why.
I’ll be there in a couple of weeks for a skiing holiday and will average less than $30usd a day visiting iconic resorts like Aspen, Alta, Snowbird, Jackson Hole and Big Sky.


I guess the disorganised and the price insensitive. Even most short notice vacationers will score some sort of discount bundled with accomodation. I heard a college kid at Vail once bemoaning the fact that he thought he'd lucked out when a mate invited him to stay at his uncle's condo at New Year, but then could only afford to ski 2 of 5 days
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