 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
Just looking for some advice with regards to potentially purchasing an investment property in the Alps. At this stage, its just an idea but wanted to gain some knowledge to see if it could actually be a possibility. I would use it for personal use (family of 5 at present) as much as time would allow both during winter and summer but would then be looking to make a return on my investment by way of rental. Anyone have a similar set up with those all important do's and dont's?? Advice on location, unknown buying costs, pitfall's all welcome.
Budget would be up to £200k but would also be happy to spend a lot less as long as all boxes were ticked.
Thanks for any responses.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Difficult to get a decent rate of return if you are viewing it as a financial investment, especially if you use the property yourself during peak periods (school holidays). Buying rental property in the UK will mean a better rate of return. Maybe more realistic to view it as an investment in quality of life for your family, and use whatever rental you get in off-peak weeks to cover or offset the direct costs of running the property?
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Wot @rob@rar said. I had an apartment in a French ski resort for 15 years. Super-successful as an "investment in quality of life" and I made a substantial capital gain when it was sold - but that was largely due to having bought when the euro was very new and weak (1.62 to the £) and sold when it was far stronger against sterling.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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First and foremost it will be used for us to enjoying skiing and then if I broke even annually, i'd be chuffed. Taking the family to La Plagne in March at a cost of £6k+ during term time. To pay that kind of money out each year, for the next 10/15 is just not good value.
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Tha vast majority of properties in Austria are 'Hauptwohnsitz' (main home) meaning you have to live in them full-time or rent to someone who lives there full-time. There are a few properties for sale designated as 'Zweitwohnsitz' (second home) meaning you can use them as you wish, but you cannot rent them as holiday rentals, and even fewer designated as 'Ferienwohnung' (holiday home) which you can use as holiday rentals, and most Gemeindes (local councils) insist that such properties are occupied throughout the tourist seasons.
So for Austria you would need to restrict your search to 'Ferienwohnung' properties and you would also need to get permission from the Gemeinde for purchase as a non-EU citizen. Property is expensive and above inflation rises in value are unlikely, but in a good location you should benefit from a steady rental income. Not sure of specific tax implications for a non-EU citizen, your guests would need to pay tourist tax, and you would need to pay tax on the income you generate. You would probably also need to pay a managing agent for cleaning and servicing the apartment, so on balance it is unlikely to be a major investment.
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But how much of that £6k was for your accommodation, @Roscoe?
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@Roscoe, If your capital or earnings are not already in euros then you are basically just gambling on exchange rates. As @pam w, says buying at 1.6 and selling at 1.1 gives a good investment. The other way around is to lose a lot of money.
Even 8 years after the thread @albob, mentions the income from rental has not matched the outlay on service charges. We keep accurate records of income and outgoings running the apartment and the average over the last 5 years is roughly 2000 euros a year. The amount we ski and climb in the summer makes the ownership worthwhile and we enjoy it, but it is not a financial investment.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Taking the family to La Plagne in March at a cost of £6k+ during term time.
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It sounds a lot of money for a week or fortnight's chalet or apartment rental in March.
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| Quote: |
The other way around is to lose a lot of money.
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Friends bought an apartment identical to mine (having stayed with us a few times and loved the place) when the euro was particularly strong and sold it at a slightly worse exchange rate (for them, earning their pensions in sterling). The exchange rate risk makes a nonsense of any conventional project cost-benefit analysis. For all except the key winter weeks in the year there is a substantial surplus of rental accommodation in the Alps. We spent several months every summer and autumn in our place and it was often substantially deserted, even when the weather was terrific. We never intended to rent it out commercially, fortunately, or it would have been very disappointing!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If its a financial investment, then buy a 2nd property close to where you live & rent it out.
Property prices probably increase % more annually in the UK than in the Alps (especially older buildings in the alps where the service fees increase as more & more expensive work is done).
If its just about offsetting your ski holiday, then an interest only mortgage means you capitalise on the mothly rental income to subsidise your skiing to any country/resort you like.
If you are insistent on buying abroad then you could go for a new build & a leaseback if its purely investment & you won't be using it much.
To hope to break even, while missing out on one of the peak rental opportunites is not realistic IMO, otherwise every person who spends a week or 2 in the alps each year would be doing it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
Taking the family to La Plagne in March at a cost of £6k+ during term time.
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It sounds a lot of money for a week or fortnight's chalet or apartment rental in March. |
I have 3 children, one of which will need a nanny as he is 1 and the other two (7 &  will be in ski school! Chalet is catered and is ski in/out, if I'd booking in half term would have been £9k+
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do you think 200k will get you the same level of location and comfort you are spending 6 grands a week now?
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But how much of that £6k was for your accommodation, @Roscoe? |
Its a package trip so can't give the exact % breakdown. I appreciate families can go on ski trips for a lot cheaper, but when you have certain requirements to enjoy your trip, the money spent is very subjective. I wanted ski in/out as I didn't want to have to worry about carrying all of the ski's, boots, etc to and from lifts. Wanted catered chalet, as I'm on holiday and wouldn't want to have to worry about shopping, cooking, etc. Needed a nanny on site at the chalet so to not have to lose more time in the morning taking the baby somewhere else before skiing.
again I also appreciate that this type of trip is likely to be the most expensive I go on, and as the children get older, the cost will reduce.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Say you buy the house for 200,000 euros and by 2099 skiing is over in the Alps (not an unreasonable suggestion, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/climate-change-research-predicts-70-per-cent-less-snow-alps/ ) resulting in the property being worth nothing, while chalets in the authentic villages will still have some appeal, the modernist apartment blocks probably won't, then the property would have cost you £2,500 per year ignoring any running costs. Of course you probably don't plan on holding it for that long but in 20 years when you want to sell this sum might be more obvious to those looking to buy so you need to factor it in. For £2,500 you can probably rent some pretty nice places in the alps and change where you visit and not have the massive massive hassle of trying to maintain a house in a foreign country
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
If its a financial investment, then buy a 2nd property close to where you live & rent it out.
Property prices probably increase % more annually in the UK than in the Alps (especially older buildings in the alps where the service fees increase as more & more expensive work is done).
If its just about offsetting your ski holiday, then an interest only mortgage means you capitalise on the mothly rental income to subsidise your skiing to any country/resort you like.
If you are insistent on buying abroad then you could go for a new build & a leaseback if its purely investment & you won't be using it much.
To hope to break even, while missing out on one of the peak rental opportunites is not realistic IMO, otherwise every person who spends a week or 2 in the alps each year would be doing it. |
I already do this, and wanted to add to my properties and though abroad could be an option. Completely understand your points on peak rental income and that it would be empty a lot.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kosmoz wrote: |
| do you think 200k will get you the same level of location and comfort you are spending 6 grands a week now? |
Of course not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I have 3 children, one of which will need a nanny as he is 1 and the other two (7 & Cool will be in ski school! Chalet is catered and is ski in/out
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Owning your own property doesn't supply a nanny or give discounts on ski school, but in some resorts you can get a discount on your lift pass and a small kickback on your guests buying their's. I thought the £6k you mentioned was purely for chalet rental - sorry.
When it comes to ski holidays the accommodation is actually a relatively small part of the total costs. The largest individual cost is the lift pass
@pam w, I have no problem renting out our apartment. Though it offsets some of the running costs the main reason we let is that I don't like the thought of it being empty and unused when we are not there.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
I have 3 children, one of which will need a nanny as he is 1 and the other two (7 & Cool will be in ski school! Chalet is catered and is ski in/out
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Owning your own property doesn't supply a nanny or give discounts on ski school, but in some resorts you can get a discount on your lift pass and a small kickback on your guests buying their's. I thought the £6k you mentioned was purely for chalet rental - sorry.
When it comes to ski holidays the accommodation is actually a relatively small part of the total costs. The largest individual cost is the lift pass
@pam w, I have no problem renting out our apartment. Though it offsets some of the running costs the main reason we let is that I don't like the thought of it being empty and unused when we are not there. |
I get that the older (and more experienced) they get, the cheaper skiing will become.
It was just an idea and i'm grateful for the responses to enable me to make an informed decision going forward.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Same opinion as @pam w, @rob@rar. We have enjoyed the "investment in quality of life" but have not broken eve and that is unlikely if you want to use it for the peak school holiday period. Also £200k is not a lot if you want a place that will be comfy for a family of 5 for any length of time. Unless you have a lot of £££s to spare and time to handle and push hard for rentals, then I think it is an investment in the family not a money making exercise.
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@Roscoe, the £6k/£9k you are currently spending is mostly nothing to do with rental of the bed/room space. You are paying for the travel, the ski passes, being cooked and cleaned for, the lessons, the nanny. At tops, £1k of that will be for the base accommodation, which is what you'd be spending your 200k + 2k per year on.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
Tha vast majority of properties in Austria are 'Hauptwohnsitz' (main home) meaning you have to live in them full-time or rent to someone who lives there full-time. There are a few properties for sale designated as 'Zweitwohnsitz' (second home) meaning you can use them as you wish, but you cannot rent them as holiday rentals, and even fewer designated as 'Ferienwohnung' (holiday home) which you can use as holiday rentals, and most Gemeindes (local councils) insist that such properties are occupied throughout the tourist seasons.
So for Austria you would need to restrict your search to 'Ferienwohnung' properties and you would also need to get permission from the Gemeinde for purchase as a non-EU citizen. Property is expensive and above inflation rises in value are unlikely, but in a good location you should benefit from a steady rental income. Not sure of specific tax implications for a non-EU citizen, your guests would need to pay tourist tax, and you would need to pay tax on the income you generate. You would probably also need to pay a managing agent for cleaning and servicing the apartment, so on balance it is unlikely to be a major investment. |
There are circumstances under which Zweitwohnsitzen property may be rented out as holiday rentals, but, in the case of apartment blocks, the permission of all the other apartment owners is required.
It is perhaps also worth noting that different Austrian states have different rules. The Tyrol, Vorarlberg and Salzburgland are particularly restrictive. Carinthia and Styria are easier and probably offer more opportunity.
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As others have said, you really have to work hard at it to break even & not use the peak school weeks yourself as that's when you get the money. It does not sound like you have the time or freedom to do that.
in saying that we bought ours with a young family & it works for us great, it allows us to fly out Mon-Mon half term, vastly cheaper flights, hand luggage only & misses the manic at Geneva over the weekend (flight saving alone saved us £2K this year). it takes the stress out of travel as you know what you are doing every time.
Summers can be extended in the Alps as parents can fly in & out swapping childcare (the 2 weeks back home on your own is a holiday in its own).
Weekends with friends become very popular & cheap as again get cheap flights.
What I am saying is it is great but its not free, we get something like £1-2K from friends that use it but that means all our annual holidays (and we have a lot) only costs about £6K pa.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Roscoe wrote: |
| Mr.Egg wrote: |
If its a financial investment, then buy a 2nd property close to where you live & rent it out.
Property prices probably increase % more annually in the UK than in the Alps (especially older buildings in the alps where the service fees increase as more & more expensive work is done).
If its just about offsetting your ski holiday, then an interest only mortgage means you capitalise on the mothly rental income to subsidise your skiing to any country/resort you like.
If you are insistent on buying abroad then you could go for a new build & a leaseback if its purely investment & you won't be using it much.
To hope to break even, while missing out on one of the peak rental opportunites is not realistic IMO, otherwise every person who spends a week or 2 in the alps each year would be doing it. |
I already do this, and wanted to add to my properties and though abroad could be an option. Completely understand your points on peak rental income and that it would be empty a lot. |
So you already know what it involves & hopefully making a yearly profit.
Compare that to a bolt hole with a potential loss.
Now, you could look at a new build with a leaseback (so you get the VAT back) & an annual return of 4% (with some use thrown in), which may be another option? Ive nosed online at the various new builds in Alpes 2, which may benefit from the link up to Alpe de Heuz. Yet, I still can't justify a purchase!
I rent properties myself & everytime I look abroad I can't justify it. i) lack of personal use ii) going back to the same place several times a year iii) not being close by if something drastic happened iv) currency fluctuations v) growth vi) relying on weekly rental income vii) management fees! (In order! Lack of personal use & going back to the same place are the 2 that stop me the most!)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 3-01-20 14:50; edited 1 time in total
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@rambotion, you are probably correct in that ski apartments will be worthless in 2099 but then mine (like many others) will be over 125 years old. In the UK they are pulling down the 1960's blocks largely because they are no longer able to maintain them at sensible costs. Do not underestimate the attraction of the hih altitude specialist ski resorts in the summer. Les Arcs, for example has a 6 week summer season that has similar occupancy rates to the poorer winter weeks. It is not only the pretty villages that have summer visitors, many of us prefer the cooler, fresher air you get higher in the mountains. Last summer when it 40 degrees plus in the valley with lots of pollution it was a delight to go back up the mountain where it was 10 degrees cooler. We spent most of our summer holiday avoiding the valley.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
| Roscoe wrote: |
| Mr.Egg wrote: |
If its a financial investment, then buy a 2nd property close to where you live & rent it out.
Property prices probably increase % more annually in the UK than in the Alps (especially older buildings in the alps where the service fees increase as more & more expensive work is done).
If its just about offsetting your ski holiday, then an interest only mortgage means you capitalise on the mothly rental income to subsidise your skiing to any country/resort you like.
If you are insistent on buying abroad then you could go for a new build & a leaseback if its purely investment & you won't be using it much.
To hope to break even, while missing out on one of the peak rental opportunites is not realistic IMO, otherwise every person who spends a week or 2 in the alps each year would be doing it. |
I already do this, and wanted to add to my properties and though abroad could be an option. Completely understand your points on peak rental income and that it would be empty a lot. |
So you already know what it involves & hopefully making a yearly profit.
Compare that to a bolt hole with a potential loss.
Now, you could look at a new build with a leaseback (so you get the VAT back) & an annual return of 4% (with some use thrown in), which may be another option? Ive nosed online at the various new builds in Alpes 2, which may benefit from the link up to Alpe de Heuz. Yet, I still can't justify a purchase!
I rent properties myself & everytime I look abroad I can't justify it. i) lack of personal use ii) going back to the same place several times a year iii) not being close by if something drastic happened iv) currency fluctuations v) growth vi) relying on weekly rental income vii) management fees! |
Thanks for the advice. My romantic idea of having an Alpine get away is probably the main driver in this pipe dream, then a dose of reality brings it all back down to earth.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you have spare cash to invest and are looking to maximise your return, I’d say forget the idea of buying in the Alps. However, if you are looking to own a second home and intending to use it fairly frequently, a second home offers huge rewards, such as being able to go out there at short notice, being able to leave personal possessions and equipment out there, providing a foothold in an area in which to make friends and explore further, certainty of what you are going to get and an opportunity to customise your accommodation to meet your requirements.
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| Austrian Seagull wrote: |
| If you have spare cash to invest and are looking to maximise your return, I’d say forget the idea of buying in the Alps. However, if you are looking to own a second home and intending to use it fairly frequently, a second home offers huge rewards, such as being able to go out there at short notice, being able to leave personal possessions and equipment out there, providing a foothold in an area in which to make friends and explore further, certainty of what you are going to get and an opportunity to customise your accommodation to meet your requirements. |
The potential rental income would be secondary to having a 2nd home abroad to be able to use as and when.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes do it. We have a tiny apartment which we use for ourselves - it’s next to a lift and is classed as ski in/out and it’s in a very popular resort so we make money on it by renting it out in summer and winter. From Summer 2020 we will only be renting it in peak weeks To family/ friends and keeping it for ourselves the rest of the time so we get plenty of time in it!
We only live 4hrs away so can pack up the car and head off. If any year you decide you want a change of scenery just pop it on a season let and off you go!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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We bought our apartment in the Swiss Alps back in 2003 and subsequently, the intrinsic value has risen by 3x; the GBP:CHF exchange rate has dropped from £1=2.44 to £1=1.29; and running costs have been covered by rental fees, but not the cost of various refurbishments (new kitchen, redecorating, new tiling, new furniture). Our kids were grown up, so we were happy to rent out the school holiday weeks and go during quiet periods. The summer season has also become more popular for rentals as well (reflecting the ski area's focus of more summer activities and longer summer lift opening season).
So overall, it was a good 'lifestyle' investment combining a reasonable profit in terms of the basic costs, with a lot of great holidays for us, our family and relatives.
But as mentioned, exchange rates are impossible to predict, so our 2.44 drop to 1.29 is simply fortuitous (and could go the other way by the time we sell). Generally, the many threads on this topic indicate that rentals can cover running costs (including taxes, building maintenance etc.) but won't pay for a mortgage (the exception is perhaps a larger property like a chalet, over a longer period, in a rentable location, with a focus on maximising rentals, at the cost of being unable to use the place yourself). And it's clear that it's not necessarily a fungible asset - it can take a long time to sell a holiday apartment/chalet and as ever with property, it's worth nothing until you actually have a buyer. Unlike a commercial rental place in the UK, an Alpine place is only rentable (mainly) in the peak winter and summer seasons, so you're missing out on the two 'low season' periods: you simply won't get the same rental revenue as you would buying a flat in the UK and renting it out commercially.
The other think we've liked is having a base - albeit a holiday one - in a foreign country and culture. You have to be prepared to at least work a bit on your language skills, so you can integrate a bit more with the local community and area. People often say to us "Don't you get bored going back to the same place?" - well, no more than living in the same place at our UK home. Nothing stops you from venturing elsewhere, but even after 16 years, we still haven't visited everything there is to see and do in the area a day's drive from our Alpine place.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 3-01-20 15:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I have no problem renting out our apartment.
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But you have an apartment in a popular, well-known, resort @johnE. We spent up to 5 months a year in ours - I spent four months plus there after my OH died. And the OP would probably not find somewhere in a high-demand rental location, suitable for a family of 5, for £200K. Even if you have £200K in readily available capital (ie no mortgage costs) the opportunity cost penalty is at least £3K a year. Which goes quite a long way towards holiday accommodation costs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd echo what Pam has said. Property is an illiquid asset. It has worked for the Brits in recent years because the government has had a policy of maintaining property prices with various schemes and it is comparatively lightly regulated in the UK compared to say, France. If/when the UK brexits non-EU nationals may be gouged with new property taxes - there is already no exemption from taxe d'habitation for example for second home owners. There are laws coming in France on energy consuming properties which could be quite costly - requiring works to bring them up to standard. Personally I'd stick to a market I know and understand to some extent.
the Orelle appartment Mr Egg linked to is not bad if you have 60K to blow. Orelle is relatively easy to access being very low, it lacks a rail stop right at the door, which is unfortunate as the train trundles right by. You'd have to check the charges but something like that in a resort around Grenoble would be over 100K for less skiing. The pool might cost a lot to maintain though. The area is great if you like the summer and you have access to some excellent skiing apart from L3V.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 3-01-20 15:42; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd agree with @pam_w or rather, her inferences: that you have to buy very carefully in terms of location. I had a colleague who sounded me out when he heard I had an Alpine apartment. He was considering buying something but when I looked, it was a dodgy (or at least heavily-circumscribed Ts&Cs) leaseback, in a resort that was (i) quite low altitude (ii) relatively small (iii) inaccessible by public transport and (iv) not really near to any major airport. It really didn't look like a good deal.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| I'd agree with @pam_w or rather, her inferences: that you have to buy very carefully in terms of location. I had a colleague who sounded me out when he heard I had an Alpine apartment. He was considering buying something but when I looked, it was a dodgy (or at least heavily-circumscribed Ts&Cs) leaseback, in a resort that was (i) quite low altitude (ii) relatively small (iii) inaccessible by public transport and (iv) not really near to any major airport. It really didn't look like a good deal. |
Bognor?
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| Cheesie168 wrote: |
| Same opinion as @pam w, @rob@rar. We have enjoyed the "investment in quality of life" but have not broken eve and that is unlikely if you want to use it for the peak school holiday period. Also £200k is not a lot if you want a place that will be comfy for a family of 5 for any length of time. Unless you have a lot of £££s to spare and time to handle and push hard for rentals, then I think it is an investment in the family not a money making exercise. |
I agree, especially in the larger resorts like Paradski, Espace Killy and 3 Vallees - that budget gets you a 1 bed apartment at bets. As much as I would love a place in the mountains, its something I would buy because I had disposable income rather than as an investment, especially with the exchange rate as low as it currently is.
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| davidof wrote: |
I'd echo what Pam has said. Property is an illiquid asset. It has worked for the Brits in recent years because the government has had a policy of maintaining property prices with various schemes and it is comparatively lightly regulated in the UK compared to say, France. If/when the UK brexits non-EU nationals may be gouged with new property taxes - there is already no exemption from taxe d'habitation for example for second home owners. There are laws coming in France on energy consuming properties which could be quite costly - requiring works to bring them up to standard. Personally I'd stick to a market I know and understand to some extent.
the Orelle appartment Mr Egg linked to is not bad if you have 60K to blow. Orelle is relatively easy to access being very low, it lacks a rail stop right at the door, which is unfortunate as the train trundles right by. You'd have to check the charges but something like that in a resort around Grenoble would be over 100K for less skiing. The pool might cost a lot to maintain though. The area is great if you like the summer and you have access to some excellent skiing apart from L3V. |
The cash will come from a redundancy payment and would cover the Orelle apartment as an example of value. I have secured another job so i'm treating the money as a complete once in a career type payment that I really want to have something to show for. So maybe i titled the thread wrong, as an investment return in secondary.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@johnE, That agent uses 'proche' quite liberally, sometimes it translates as bloody miles away! Links to the resorts have become quite odd as well, local busses were quite regular but the Aime to Montalbert bus now only runs in the French holidays, and I have given up trying to work out if there is a service that meets the Eurostar. No wonder the local Taxi driver is having a new Maison built down in Longefoy!
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