 Poster: A snowHead
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For an upcoming trip to Big Sky and Jackson Hole I will be taking my tranceiver but considering leaving my shovel and probe at home due to luggage space limitations.
Is it safe to do so given that all USA inbounds off-piste is supposedly patrolled and controlled?
I *think* there are some areas in Big Sky e.g. off Lone Mountain which require a tranceiver but no shovel/probe...correct?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had to do the same. Issue is what's the point in having a tranny if you've got nothing to dig your friends out with?! I'll be buying some regardless.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| LittleBullet wrote: |
| Issue is what's the point in having a tranny if you've got nothing to dig your friends out with?! |
To allow access to the areas for which ski patrol stipulate a tranceiver is required
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I think you need full avy equipment for some of the lines in big sky (e.g. big couloir and north summit snowfield). Think it's bridger bowl (which is definitely worth spending some time) where you only need a transceiver.
You are right that everything in bounds is patrolled and avy controlled, inbounds slides are very rare, so skiing without avy equipment in bounds is fine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@hd, make space for it , and take it as a matter of course , doesn't take up much room and you could always leave something a little less important behind ???
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@boarder2020 is right. Big Sky has a couple lines off Lone Peak that requires the full kit. That said, not everyone wants to ski those lines at all. The rest of the mountain has plenty of good skiing to satisfy most.
Though I think @Dabber is also right, that you should somehow find the room for them if you want to.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 4-01-20 0:27; edited 1 time in total
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If any of my mates turn up with just a transceiver, we tell them to sod off for the day. It's so selfish.
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having said that, if you're not going out of bounds why bother with the tranny at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You just don’t know what you’re talking about. 
Did you read first before you post your gibberish?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 4-01-20 0:25; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
if you're not going out of bounds why bother with the tranny at all.
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Some resorts have areas you are only allowed to access with a transceiver (delirium dive at sunshine is an example). So many people just take transceiver and no other equipment. The area is bombed so not an issue - the transceiver requirement is just to try and keep beginners out of the more advanced terrain. (Yes they could just rent a transceiver, however the policy seems to do a half decent job).
I do agree with others though, a shovel and probe don't exactly take up much room. Also Jackson Hole sidecountry has some great terrain. Having the gear gives you the option should you meet some people on the lifts willing to show you around.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Imagine this scenario, an avalanche does occur, the patrol are already on another rescue and can't get to you for X amount of time. Your friend is buried somewhere, you've found him thanks to your transceiver but you can't dig him out in time and he dies. Is it safe to go with just a transceiver? Probably, but mountains are unpredictable, it's your choice at the end of the day, but have a good think about it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't think some of the people replying to this thread realise that everything inside the resorts boundary in North America is avy controlled. While in bounds slides do happen it is extremely rare. It's like saying why don't you take a parachute heliskiing because helicopters sometimes crash.
The OP just needs a transceiver to access certain terrain - which is avalanche controlled. As I said the beacon requirement is just a rough way of stopping less experienced riders (who likely don't have one) entering more extreme terrain.
Of course if you are going out of the resort boundary you need shovel and probe also.
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@boarder2020, helicopter crashes are rarer than avalanches, so not really a fair comparison but I take your point. However I stand by my point that if a transceiver is necessary so is the rest of the kit, ( along with some level of awareness and training). I won't debate more, this is simply my opinion, but I will continue to carry all my kit even if a slope is deemed 'safe'
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You know it makes sense.
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| freeridechef wrote: |
| @boarder2020, helicopter crashes are rarer than avalanches, so not really a fair comparison but I take your point. However I stand by my point that if a transceiver is necessary so is the rest of the kit, ( along with some level of awareness and training). I won't debate more, this is simply my opinion, but I will continue to carry all my kit even if a slope is deemed 'safe' |
Inbound avalanches are extremely rare.
Helicopter crashes are not unheard of.
Do you have the data to say helicopter crashes are indeed rarer than inbound avalanche?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@abc, if I could be arsed to look for for it I'm sure I could find some statistics that say I'm right, but I can't, and I specifically didn't say inbound avalanche, just avalanche.
Ps, last year 118 people died in helicopter accidents ( not including military), if you want to look up figures and do some maths (that's right, with an s  ) then be my guest
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I specifically didn't say inbound avalanche, just avalanche
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That is the whole point of the thread!
The stats are that 45 skiers and snowboarders died from inbounds avalanches from 1950 to 2017. It's such a rare occurrence, it wouldn't even occur to me to bother wearing a beacon inbounds, let alone carrying Avi equipment.
The exception is where a beacon or full avy equipment is needed to enter certain areas in bounds, which is what the OPs question is all about.
Nobody is suggesting skiing out of bounds without full Avi gear.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I specifically didn't say inbound avalanche, just avalanche
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That is the whole point of the thread!
The stats are that 45 skiers and snowboarders died from inbounds avalanches from 1950 to 2017. It's such a rare occurrence, it wouldn't even occur to me to bother wearing a beacon inbounds, let alone carrying Avi equipment.
The exception is where a beacon or full avy equipment is needed to enter certain areas in bounds, which is what the OPs question is all about.
Nobody is suggesting skiing out of bounds without full Avi gear. |
And 12 of those in the last ten years......and like I said to the op, it's your choice, my choice would still be to carry it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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12 deaths in 10 years across all the resorts, and all the skiers most of whom are doing numerous days.
I suspect you will also be telling the OP to avoid skiing in trees as tree wells are far more dangerous than avalanches. Probably should avoid any pistes too as In fact avoid anywhere near trees as collisions with trees kill more people than in bounds avalanches too. Even the drive from the airport is more likely to kill you.
From a selfish point of view OP still only needs a transceiver. If they personally are caught in a slide it will be ski patrol digging them out. Of course it would be nice if he was in a position to help a buried skier, but the resort has professionals for that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
if you're not going out of bounds why bother with the tranny at all.
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Some resorts have areas you are only allowed to access with a transceiver (delirium dive at sunshine is an example). So many people just take transceiver and no other equipment. The area is bombed so not an issue - the transceiver requirement is just to try and keep beginners out of the more advanced terrain. (Yes they could just rent a transceiver, however the policy seems to do a half decent job).
I do agree with others though, a shovel and probe don't exactly take up much room. Also Jackson Hole sidecountry has some great terrain. Having the gear gives you the option should you meet some people on the lifts willing to show you around. |
The last avalanche in Delirium Dive involved fellow riders being first on-scene and digging out those buried. That alone is reason enough to carry full kit...it is rare but it does happen !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Slackcountry = no.
Backcountry = yes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Big Sky tourist office via email wrote: |
| In order to ski runs like the North Summit Snowfield and the Big Couloir you will need full gear for many other we just recommend ski with a partner and have a transceiver |
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Bring a large spoon and a pick up a long stick when you get the MT. Problem solved.
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| hd wrote: |
| leaving my shovel and probe at home due to luggage space limitations. |
They weigh less than a kilogram combined and you should easily be able to squeeze these items in your ski bag. I used to put the shovel head at the tail end of the ski bag where is there is normally space. However small the risk there is a reason why they stipulate the need for transceivers and no downside to taking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@hd, Yes take them, your plans may change making them necessary. Carrying Avi gear is not exclusively for your rescue, it also allows you to be an active part of a rescue scene/team.
Remember, there is typically a 15-minute rescue window for buried victims, everyone who is on the scene should be engaged and capable of searching with Transceiver, pole, and digging with a shovel.
Anyway, a probe and shovel have minimal weight and take up very little space (I usually put mine in the bottom of my ski bag).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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didn't realise that was your restriction ,with that limitation you obviously can't take a shovel and probe in ur Hand luggage , so probably best to speak to local BC shop in resort and get the locals best advice and then rent if needed , but I would always carry all three avi equipment or just not bother going into the terrain .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dabber wrote: |
| Iwould always carry all three avi equipment or just not bother going into the terrain |
What sort of terrain?
| In the first post hd wrote: |
For an upcoming trip to Big Sky and Jackson Hole I will be taking my tranceiver but considering leaving my shovel and probe at home due to luggage space limitations.
Is it safe to do so given that all USA inbounds off-piste is supposedly patrolled and controlled |
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| Quote: |
What sort of terrain?
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People are either not reading your original post or have no clue about how North American resorts work. You are correct everything in bounds is patrolled and controlled. The chances of you being caught in an inbounds slide are almost zero. If you are really cautious you can wear your beacon but I wouldn't bother unless avy risk is really high (in which case they will be bombing and only opening up each lift once they are sure all the terrain it serves is safe). As you can imagine resorts all play it very safe due to the bad publicity a death would cause and the litigation it would involve.
Might be worth renting a probe and shovel to ski some of the lines that require it, but plenty of other good inbounds stuff if you don't want.
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You know it makes sense.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
What sort of terrain?
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People are either not reading your original post or have no clue about how North American resorts work. You are correct everything in bounds is patrolled and controlled. The chances of you being caught in an inbounds slide are almost zero. If you are really cautious you can wear your beacon but I wouldn't bother unless avy risk is really high (in which case they will be bombing and only opening up each lift once they are sure all the terrain it serves is safe). As you can imagine resorts all play it very safe due to the bad publicity a death would cause and the litigation it would involve.
Might be worth renting a probe and shovel to ski some of the lines that require it, but plenty of other good inbounds stuff if you don't want. |
I completely understand the OP ( although it was not clear that hd was only travelling with hand luggage ) and how the in bounds off piste system works in North America , but the point I was making was that HD was limiting himself if other opportunities arose to venture further , and that was why I suggested renting over not taking , plus there are definatly spots in bounds where punters can get drawn over the boundaries of safe and unsafe
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| The chances of you being caught in an inbounds slide are almost zero. |
Well just looking at last season, 2 avi victims out of 25 were inbound. 8% of all victims is hardly referred as "almost zero". I agree inbound avis don't happen really often, but they do happen. As soon as you have lose snow around, there's never 100% safety, and blindly trusting that being inbound means safe skiing can really easily cost you life. So regardless of luggage or no luggage, I would have full equipment with me. If luggage is case, I'm sure it's easy to find place to rent avi equipment.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The NSAA report estimates over 59million ski days in resorts in just USA last year. Even if you ignore Canada, 2/59 million is about as close to zero as you can get.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020, I get your point but I reckon if you looked at total number of ski days in Europe vs avi casualties the number would still be as close to zero as you can get, however we still take precautions. (I have no idea where to find the stats foe EU).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Crystal Mountain, my home hill, has extensive in-bounds, avi-“controlled” terrain. Very few people feel the need for beacon/probe/shovel, and part of the reason is that if avi risk is too high they just won’t open that terrain. If I was accustomed to how it’s done in the Alps, this might sound fishy. But I think it makes sense. It saves some of us from the false sense of security that safety gear can provide. So no, you don’t need to bring it. If you find yourself in a position to need it, such as having an opportunity to go ski Teton Pass with some locals, that’s what credit cards are for.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I ski off piste,back country,side country whatever you want to call it without a guide sometimes on my own but I always take a shovel probe and transceiver it would be selfish not to.I was in Tignes 2017 and witnessed the aftermath of a Avalanche that killed a father and son and I think a guide on that occasion it came well over the piste
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Take it. But don't fly there because planes crash, take the boat with Greta.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bit surprised by this conversation TBH. I thought the whole concept of NA skiing was that in-bounds skiing is avi controlled so you don't need avalanche safety equipment. Are the same people saying they would carry equipment if they were staying on piste in France? Does that mean that 95%+ of European skiers are taking silly risks by not carrying all the gear on piste?
I'm taking the family to Whistler at Easter. We'll already have 4 pairs of skis, 4 pairs of boots, 4 helmets, etc. I was really planning to avoid 4 sets of avalanche kit as well. And yes we are planning to ski the inbounds chutes etc. Do I really need to take it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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 I'm not in the least surprised. Social media and pragmatic risk management don't really go together very well.
That said, there are also many sensible posts in this thread.
There will always be those who correctly argue that a full 30L day pack will make any visit to Hemel Hempstead's snow dome safer,
as will wearing a ski helmet whilst driving.
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@jedstar
If you are staying in bounds leave the avy kit at home. Ski patrol go out each morning and check the area performing cuts and bombing if necessary. If the risk is deemed too high (and they are usually over cautious) the won't open the area. Part of the fun is that everything is controlled and you don't have to worry about avalanches.
Whistler is a great ski area. Would recommend the guidebook by quickdraw publications for getting the most out of your trip as it's a big area and a lot of the better lines are not so obvious or signposted.
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FAQ
