 Poster: A snowHead
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| I agree one can tell the difference even if one is a beginner; that is what I reported originally. However, it seems contrary to the perceived wisdom that (say) a beginner should not go anywhere near "expert/advanced" skis. And if you read some of the above, the (patronising) explanation given is that anybody can ski ok on "child" size skis. |
I was also very unimpressed by the tone of some comments =(
But,
| rob@rar wrote: |
| the wrong ski for them will inhibit skill development rather than encourage it. |
I don't think that the short stocklis will be beneficial for you long term to improve your skiing (nor will long stocklis). Even though this length is probably the best choice for this particular model.
When a review says that a beginner should not go anywhere near a ski - the reviewer assumes some length-weight correlation, and the certain style of skiing, for piste skis is mostly carving. Then yeah, a beginner shouldn't go with stocklis if they want to improve their technique.
But it's also true, imo, that many reviews of really shitty skis say "good beginner skis". I guess the main reason for this positive evaluation is that they're cheap. I think you're right that manufacturers often tend to somewhat align quality with the level of skier ability required (understandably so - is simply driven by physics for some parameters). But not to the extreme that you're painting - it's not just build quality that is different between different-level skis, it's both quality and ability.
I wonder if this turtle-shell thing of stocklis is a good example how they could make a ski suitable for both more relaxed skiing (the titanal layer not engaged) and more aggressive (the plates interlocked), or is it just another marketing trick.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Daedra wrote: |
| I was also very unimpressed by the tone of some comments =( |
Did you think the criticism of some posters only because they have high post counts was valid?
| Daedra wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| the wrong ski for them will inhibit skill development rather than encourage it. |
I don't think that the short stocklis will be beneficial for you long term to improve your skiing (nor will long stocklis). Even though this length is probably the best choice for this particular model. |
Stockli is a relatively niche manufacturer, and generally does not offer skis which are designed specifically for inexperienced skiers. That's not to say that an inexperienced skier will not be able to ski on Stocklis, but there may well be ski models from other manufacturers which are more suitable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Daedra wrote: |
| I was also very unimpressed by the tone of some comments =( |
Did you think the criticism of some posters only because they have high post counts was valid? |
No, but i stop judging people's replies after they've been called names.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Daedra wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Daedra wrote: |
| I was also very unimpressed by the tone of some comments =( |
Did you think the criticism of some posters only because they have high post counts was valid? |
No, but i stop judging people's replies after they've been called names. |
Entirely reasonable decision. Does that apply to people who make cheap comments about fellow forum users who have high posts counts?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Peter Stevens, I’m trying to work out what point you are trying to make. Can you help me out?
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Hifi nerds got duped over interconnects so skis are definitely the same?
Cynicism re marketing and premiumisation is well warranted but I'd suggest if you baulk at the price of Stoeklis then just don't buy them. It's not really an issue. There are obviously those that will pay the premium or find their own way to get the experience at s more wallet friendly price - I could have picked up some vgc Stormrider XXLs last week for around £80 ( maybe 10 years old but I guess less than 40 days on them)
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @Peter Stevens, I’m trying to work out what point you are trying to make. Can you help me out? |
+1
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Peter Stevens,
| Quote: |
You can rent them outside Switzerland, e.g. Italy. 40 euros a day for 1 day seems to be the going rate. But they don't have a big range, and one shop I visited had only the longest size. The surprising thing is if you try to buy it; none of the discounters I looked at carry them. Obviously this is a carefully managed policy by Stockli to prop up the pricing
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Just on Stockli and pricing/availability, it is worth considering that Stockli produce is relatively small volumes using a low fixed cost / high variable cost construction (hand made in Switzerland rather than big automated lines with more molding in lower cost locations). This means that they will have much less incentive to produce high volumes and discount excess inventory (or shove it into the rental channel).
I'm not saying this approach is better for ski-buyers or delivers better value for money. It doesn't guarantee better skis. Stocklis ARE expensive. But it comes from the business model rather than being some devious approach.
I've only bought one pair of stocklis and they were the most expensive skis I have bought. I like a bargain. FWIW I still regard the VFM of my stocklis as very good. That is of course highly subjective.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jedster, agree with your observations; I'm still unclear as to what the point of the OP is. Yes, some reviews are BS and most are full of jargon; that's true for pretty much any field. And the analogy with car driving someone made above is highly pertinent: it is perfectly possible to enjoy driving a car (or bike) whose limits are far, far above one's own.
One last point in response to the @PeterStevens quote you reported above: it's simply not true that Stöckli are not available at a discount. One simple Google search produced this right at the top of the pile:
https://www.snowcountry.eu/stockli-laser-sc-19-20.html?country=GB&curr=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhure7qr25gIVyLHtCh3ujA6xEAQYASABEgJ5YfD_BwE
priced at €915 - 30% discount vs RRP of €1299 (including mid-range bindings and plate).
Here is a 42% off offer - though (perhaps unsurprisingly) they are out of stock: http://www.langolodellosport.com/b-10/stockli.htm
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Did you add the bindings on that snowcountry.eu site? The €1300 list is what they show as €1149 - that is the exact one I had. That's about 10% off, allowing for delivery. Still a good find!
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You know it makes sense.
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In that case the shop I was in gave me the list price for the wrong bindings 
Why does that website have "not suitable for lightweight and beginner skiers" on two of the bindings?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| .......Why does that website have "not suitable for lightweight and beginner skiers" on two of the bindings? |
Because they're idiots. The binding options are all the same rebadged Salomon binding with the only difference being the ski-to-binding interface.
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Poster: A snowHead
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So after all this angst are you buying them or sticking to your Atomic MRs till you develop as a skier?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"Because they're idiots. The binding options are all the same rebadged Salomon binding with the only difference being the ski-to-binding interface."
They manage to achieve a price increment of exactly €100 from one to the next What is the real difference?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Really do we have to give you a lesson in price points? Or do you go through life expecting that everything needs to be directly correlated to the cost of materials going into it? Try smartphones - you'll reallylose your sh*t there when you hear about a little company called Apple.
Or if you like washing machines. I think its pretty well established that the mechanicals in a given range are the same (production simplicity and efficiency) and you simply pay more for "better" mdels to have more features in the control panel.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 10-01-20 13:14; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Calm down Dave. Just try to answer the question (if you know the answer). You don't need to feel insecure; I could not ski even if you paid me and I will never catch up with your 26698 posts
Is there a discernible difference in the four "ski to binding interface" options? Are the bindings really identical? They don't look it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I can have a good guess at the real differences but you'll argue about it like a spoilt child so I 'm not sure why I should bother
MC plates- shorter, thinner, more flexy
SRT plates longer beefier more stack height
Carbon lighter stiffer than plastic or plastic/metal combo.
If I had to guess at the not suitable I'd say they are intending to refer to the stiffening effect the plate has on the ski not the binding itself. ANither reason you found your 11 year old length skis easy to ski possibly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Metal (or carbon fibre) plates are expensive - and I'd say fairly justifiably so given the machining involved and the small volumes. Whether that's €100 of "value" is an entirely subjective judgement. Which is kind of related to the "not suitable for lightweight and beginners" matter: the ski is stiff enough by itself without need to add further stiffness (and vertical leverage, and longer edge-to-edge movement, and harder to boot-out) through a plate for a lightweight skier or a beginner.
Can a lightweight beginner ski with a FIS plate? Yes, but they are paying for no improvement at best (and paying for a less enjoyable ski at worst).
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Interesting; thanks. Never thought the binding would make a ski stiffer.
I have noticed that some bindings are a lot more sensitive to snow on the boots. The MC 12 Red is a lot more sensitive than the Atomic one. I did ask in the shop about it and they said there is no adjustment for that. I certainly can't see any obvious adjustment.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| Is there a discernible difference in the four "ski to binding interface" options? Are the bindings really identical? They don't look it. |
Yes, there is a clearly discernible difference:
Increasing stiffness of the plate (and lighter as well as stiffer plate for the most expensive options).
The cheapest binding is a lower DIN range - again, whether that makes a difference to value is a subjective option; I am 180 cm 90 kg 285 mm boot and set a DIN 7.5 to 10; the first binding is perfectly fine for me unless I were to race (and then I wouldn't do it on those skis). The second cheapest binding is heavier than the binding in the two more expensive options. Do 800 g make a difference? Not to me - I carry more excess baggage around the waist than that, and it would be better in all respects for me to lose 4-5 kg by moving more and eating less.
In other words - yes, there are objective differences. Do they make a difference in skiing? Yes, though I would think fairly minimal unless you are really pushing the ski's envelope. Does this make the difference worth the price? That's a marketing question, not a "is the review (or the manufacturer's spec) BS?" question.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| Interesting; thanks. Never thought the binding would make a ski stiffer. |
Not so much the binding as the plate under it (which I suppose technically is still part of the binding system).
| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| I have noticed that some bindings are a lot more sensitive to snow on the boots. |
 I assume you mean snow sticking to the sole, yes? Yep, they are. And no, there isn't anything you can do (other than preventing the problem by applying some non-stick teflon to the sole); the mechanism latches within the tolerances it does, and you can't adjust it. Cleaning your soles is good practice anyway.
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@Peter Stevens, So what are you gona buy?
When it comes to skis and ski tech, we all know a bit about it but ultimately Spyderjon is probably the most informed guy in the UK that posts on here regarding it. Perhaps ask him and ask what deals he has from ex demo fleet etc.
How you ski should be the deciding factor on what skis to buy. By your own description, one could assume you're a back seat heal pushing blue cruiser you need a ski thats not gona kick your ass skiing like that
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wanna a ski which when you push down on the left one, makes you turn to the right, and when you push down on the right one, makes you turn to the left. The Stockli did that really well so I bought it.
"by applying some non-stick teflon to the sole"
Can anyone point me at a suitable product, please?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've got about 1000 days on snow time in total (at a guess, I don't keep an exact diary) so I guess that immediately precludes having an opinion.
I rip blacks and shred the gnar. In resort I use a pair of 150 quid wood core Rossis that I bought on price more than anything. Would a pair of 1000 quid Stocklis be better? I'd hope so but I'll never know.
If that helps anyone in their ski choice in future then you are welcome
I don't generally read ski reviews because I don't understand them, I do look at customer feedback, forum reviews. In other words, not cowdoo but not worth too paying much attention to.
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| I wanna a ski which when you push down on the left one, makes you turn to the right, and when you push down on the right one, makes you turn to the left..... |
There's three ways to turn a ski; applying pressure (pushing down as you say), edging and rotating - usually a combination of all three is used and a good skier can vary the ratio of each element as required. However, in isolation, pushing down is the least effective way of turning.
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You know it makes sense.
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I appreciate, John; I was just winding up some people
That teflon stuff... is it a liquid or a paste, or something like adhesive tape? Never seen it sold anywhere.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Next week, more like.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Peter Stevens wrote: |
| I was just winding up some people. |
We guessed that a while ago.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So you admit now you're a troll even though that upset you previously apparently - did the trolling start at post 1 and you in fact skied the Stocklis in adult male size?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I wind up only those who ask for it
I do have the 156 skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If true then this entire thread is baffling. What were you looking for? Validation? Or a confirmation that you had overpaid for the wrong skis. You like them and think they work for you - why ask anyone else?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
For your own safety don't bother with the Teflon idea - you will also be reducing friction on your boot sole when you walk on ice, hard flooring etc. Just bang or scrape your boots properly.
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Now you've ruined it... 
Actually, that is a sensible suggestion - and I should have made it clearer I was kind of joking. If you want to give it a try anyway, it comes in spray form; just don't use anything that contains oil-based/low volatility solvents ("dry PTFE" is normally what it's called), just in case the plastic of the shell is affected. No responsibility for the result or any consequential damage to the boots or the back of your head.
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OK; thanks. Ski boots can be slippery enough already.
No, Dave, I was asking the questions I asked. Perfectly straight. I do have a life, have a day job which is IT related, and don't waste my life on forums. I reckon those ski reviews (the ones I posted at the start of this thread) *are* mostly boll0cks. They are written so that anybody spending the right kind of money can read what they like into them.
I didn't say right away I bought the skis because it is irrelevant and because on here I would get slagged off as having more money than sense, etc. I got a great trade-in for the Atomic ones; a lot more than I would get on Ebay.
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| Quote: |
on here I would get slagged off as having more money than sense, etc.
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Don't think so, but I would have bought at least the 163 if not the 170 given your size/weight. Enjoy!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did wonder, because my previous were ~163, but I really liked these.
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If I didn't know rayscoops was a boarder, I would have suspected some sock puppetry.
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FAQ
); now using the € prices provided on the site. The price without is €899, and with the cheapest bindings they are €1049. Shipping is €14.95 to the UK.
