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The Great Ski Club of Britain.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Now, I don't have a problem with SCGB for the sake of it. On the whole I'd say it's acquitted itself rather well over the last 100 yrs (not that I've been watching them the whole time U understand). For a country with such little mountain terrain, GB has an incredibly well developed ski industry and this is in no small part due to the endeavours of SCGB over the years.
For this we are all massively chuffed.

As recently as 30yrs ago, skiing was exclusive and elitist: after all it involved international travel, which in itself was exclusively expensive. Then, a club with these characteristics suited the field well and was bound to thrive.

However, possibly the most under-rated aspect of the SCGB is the humour which underpins its apparent ice[axe]-cool efficiency: take for example the advert that keeps appearing at the top of the new "Members Chat" page saying "Get more from your skiing! Join the Ski Club of Great Britain"!

To whom are they selling the point?
Has no-one told the club that there are no non-members anymore?
Perhaps they've given up trying to sell to Johnny poor person and figure they stand a better chance of convincing their current members to join twice - heh heh, if they fell for it once they'll go for it again.
Of course the logical outcome is all too obvious: "Today the high council decided that only people holding 'double membership' will be allowed to use members chat - it will henceforth be known as, 'Well thank god they've all gone at last - G+T anyone?'"

Disclaimer: the views expressed above are not those of the SCGB or anybody else, they are irreverent, sarcastic and should probably only be read by snowboarders and children over the age of 18.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ice & lemon please - or is lime now in fashion
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
CC: SCGB "Members chat"
One irony is that legally the SCGB may have inadvertently dropped itself in it. (Please note i am not a lawyer)
But, it occurs to me that many of these excluded people wrote a lot of interesting, entertaining and informative words over the time the forum was open to them. This work was intended for the public domain and all the while the forum had open access, there could be no copyright issue since all the work was clearly remaining in the domain in which the writers had placed it voluntarily.

Even the deletion of it could be quite easily defended since SCGB owns the medium upon which it was published and could probably argue the right to re-use that medium -however, SCGB does NOT own the work itself.

Once these people were closed out, it could be viewed that SCGB had unlawfully taken exclusive possession of this work on the grounds that they had denied the copyright owners access to it.
What is particularly contentious in my view is that in writing, "The chat forums have become a valuable added benefit to members thanks to the enthusiasm of those who participate" and "there are over 60,000 messages that contain extremely valuable information about resorts, ski schools, websites, equipment, accommodation, driving to the Alps, family skiing and a lot of general chit-chat about skiing and snowboarding. This is a fantastic resource that we want to preserve" they seem to imply that not only are they aware of the 'Value' of the work that has been put in by these people but they could now be seen to be attempting to profit from it by proffering it as part of the benefits of becoming a member.

What could be more galling than to be told in effect "Due to the amount of effort and enthusiasm you have put into this resource it is now too valuable to allow you continued access to it"?

I'd be seething if it happened to me >Sad
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
David Goldsmith was hinting at this Helen but you have articulated it perfectly. I have "barred" myself from further discussion of this whole business on the SCGB site - are you able to post your message there? (PS forgive me if you already have, I log on here first thing now, not there)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Helen,
Interesting point that had occured to me also so with a little plagiarism (please for give me) I sent this e-mail this morning and await their reply and will post it here.


Please read the information below.
As said, the postings that I made where to a public forum and are not the property of the SCGB.
I retain copywight to this information and hereby instruct that you no longer use or display this information other than in the context that it was posted with the understanding that it would be available to Registered users and not SCGB members only.
To this end I wish for the SCGB to assure me that it will comply with this request within the next seven days or I shall apply for an injunction to enforce my and other peoples rights

Adrian Warden


One irony is that legally the SCGB may have inadvertently dropped itself in it.
But, it occurs to me that many of these excluded people wrote a lot of interesting, entertaining and informative words over the time the forum was open to them. This work was intended for the public domain and all the while the forum had open access, there could be no copyright issue since all the work was clearly remaining in the domain in which the writers had placed it voluntarily.

Even the deletion of it could be quite easily defended since SCGB owns the medium upon which it was published and could probably argue the right to re-use that medium -however, SCGB does NOT own the work itself.

Once these people were closed out, it could be viewed that SCGB had unlawfully taken exclusive possession of this work on the grounds that they had denied the copyright owners access to it.
What is particularly contentious in my view is that in writing, "The chat forums have become a valuable added benefit to members thanks to the enthusiasm of those who participate" and "there are over 60,000 messages that contain extremely valuable information about resorts, ski schools, websites, equipment, accommodation, driving to the Alps, family skiing and a lot of general chit-chat about skiing and snowboarding. This is a fantastic resource that we want to preserve" they seem to imply that not only are they aware of the 'Value' of the work that has been put in by these people but they could now be seen to be attempting to profit from it by proffering it as part of the benefits of becoming a member.

What could be more galling than to be told in effect "Due to the amount of effort and enthusiasm you have put into this resource it is now too valuable to allow you continued access to it"?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Well done Slowplough - nice one! Perhaps everyone should lay claim to their own work if the SCGB refuse to reverse their decision.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Got this back with 30minutes, so they may well thinking about this point.

Dont worry I would quite like taking out an injunction against them as I'm sure the media would be interested.
They just love to kick the establishment (Boring of *arts ect)



Adrian,

For your information I have received your follow-up email and will be
passing it on.

Regards,

Laura Zachary
New Media Manager
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Snowplough,i got the same reply from Laura too.
I must say though despite the site being too big for me' puter screen,its alot better than SCGB's,so are we going to continue using this if SCGB's becomes free again?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Personally, yes, that decision shows to me that they're not really in it for the communitym they're in it for the money; community sites have auchbetter atmosphere etc tc
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Nope no return to SCGB if free...... They managed to p*ss mst people off and this place is much nicer Wink

I got a reply from Laura as well. In last weeks edition of the edge newsletter there was an opportunity to submit a topic for thier weekly "funny" poll. I submittted a sarcastic poll topic about having to pay to access the SCGB forums.

Laura responded saying that she/they had been waiting for something like this and she would pass it on to the management team....

I hadn't realised that they had one. Shocked

Very Happy

Osh..
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Look, I know everyone is more than a little p*ssed off with the SCGB and the reaction to not return if they reverse their decision is understandable. But do consider that there are a massive majority of SCGB members that contributed to the forum, who're fighting this. Be a shame if it was all for nothing.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Just whoever set this site up,would've done so for nothing then.
I suppose we could use both......Jesus! i'd get no work done rather than little!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
A quick thanks to Alan craggs for replying to my e-mail and pointing me to his site and ultimately to here. This forum seems to be far more versatile than the SCGB. More power to the people who set it up.
I hope that more "refugees" find their way here. Does this mean we get free housing, benefts and a trip to a snowdrome every so often? Twisted Evil
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just thought I'd share this post which I have put on the Club threads:-
"It's annoying not having access to all my pseudonyms, because now I have to be me and I don't talk about this matter. I suspect that Neil was close to the truth when he referred to legal liability. Any member who posts an "illegal" or even just offensive post is a known entity and can be held to account. Allowing non-members to register with just an email address (and especially untraceable ones like hotmail etc) is asking for trouble if they can subsequently post offensive material, link to pornographic images and even "steal" other's identities (I alluded to this problem in a thread many moons ago). This is not a problem unique to the Club, but I have a feeling that the Club's solution to it may be."

A big problem with the Club site as I and others saw it was that the only "admin" seemed to be Laura and it was clear that she didn't spend 24/7 monitoring the posts. A site like this one is clearly open to abuse but at least there will be a number of moderators who will hopefully sort things pdq. It is also possible to ban users in various ways if that becomes necessary. I would just ask every user and potential user to have some consideration and ensure that this site keeps alive. Cool
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I must admit Mark, that although initially, my desires centred upon regaining access to SCGB chat, as I put more work into snowHeads and as our numbers here swell, I admit my sentiments are shifting rather toward hoping they do not relent - is that selfish of me? I hope not: I'm rather getting to like it here Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes, I can see that point of view very well. This is a good site.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mark I agree with your original point and I hadn't considered those that are fighting to have us non payers reinstated... and I really appreciate that... but SCGB made a decision without consulting either it's members or regulars that directly affects the service given to those members and less so to it's regulars. It smacks of an attitude of not actually giving a damn about it's members wishes and/or needs and either too concerned about generating revenue through it's web site (now that it's all nicely dolled up) or process and procedure.

If anything SCGB missed the boat on generating revenue from the site with proof from a highly active forum proving that they get a high vlolume of daily hits they could have used this to sell more and expensive advertising.

anyway nuff said an all that....

Support your local snowheads.com site..... admin needs us Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I wouldn't mind if this site even had ads on the sides,or links to other companies if it kept it free & going indefinately.Lets face who remembers the early days of Friends Reunited?
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I can't see the SCGB getting their numbers back. Once things like this happen and loyalties go elsewhere that is usually it. The are completly niave to the fact that there are other good snowsport websites out there who treat members and non members with equal respect.

They messed up and should pay the price. Twisted Evil
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Further to my posting above, Council Member Neil Britten has just put this on the Club Site:-
"David: However, it seems that Neil, at least, is quite happy for discussion (and any risks discussion brings) to move off elsewhere.

I beg to offer a clarification. I don't want club members to up sticks and "move" anywhere. Though I can't stop them I would hope that the club continues to offer sufficient for them to want to remain members. I would hope a members discussion forum would be part of what is on offer that is valued.

It is not discussion that brings risks per se it is what is "published" on a public site. You may not realise it but the costs of an un-moderated public board could fall on you all as members. These costs have nothing to do with a bit of disk space and have everything to do with public liability.

The council might have decided to improve the moderation and retain a publicly available discussion board.

In the event the council (not "the Club" - you're part of the club; but you elect the council to take some decisions on your behalf) decided to limit the liability by removing public access.

Now you may disgree with the choice made but those were the choices in front of us. What we could not do under any circumstances, in my view, was continue with the free-for-all that existed before. Some change was unavoidable I'm afraid."
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You'll need to Register first of course.
He's getting good at this 'sidestep the issue, it's all for your own good' guff, much more & he could give Tony Blair a run for his money
snow report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
He's got a point. it is something that has to be considered - even when you put up a disclaimer, you;re still legally deemed to be the publisher and thus legally responsible if something offensive, threatening or in some other way illegal post is made and not removed. It's a tricky situation, but one which they don;t seem to have handled very well. As I've said elsewhere, I frequent other forums and nome of them has reacted to the legal pressures by charging £48 a year for access Confused
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Reasonable efforts to moderate should remove liability - if not, that's what public liability insurance is for as my insurance broker keeps telling me Smile .

Extreme case of insufficient liability insurance or assets, the cost would not especially fall on members as the club is probably a company limited by guarantee, usually £1 per head.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I must admit to no real knowledge in this area - but Neil did give the impression that he personally would be liable for large sums should it become a problem. PC Pro had a recent article on setting up forums and discussed some of the legal issues (www.pcpro.co.uk, In-depth->Features dated 29/1/04). It seems to be as you say - as long as you remove offending articles on request you appear to be in the clear.

Surely the Council would have sought professional advice on this?


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 9-02-04 20:51; edited 1 time in total
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Maybe Neil has the usual misconceptions about the liability of directors of a company. Same scenario really, as long as you take reasonable care and behave honestly there is little chance of liability.

What can foul this up is someone who is gratuously litigatious and incompetent craven insurance companies who insist on settling out of court as that is cheaper than paying for lawyers. Smile

Oh, I do like the smileys. It allows you to take the sting out of a comment. Very Happy
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Tounge in cheek remarks are so much easier... (although there are no tongue-in-cheek smileys. A tongue out-between-lips one is all I can find at the moment). NehNeh
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Our old cat used to forget to put his tongue away NehNeh

Its all a bit of a mystery really, maybe they're just focusing on the liability issue as one which they feel we can't easily counter...

I like the fact that I can edit out my spelling mistakes!
:-^)
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We could also have a war of editing-in spelling mistakes and mis-uses of apostrophies to each others' posts?! (Don't worry, I wouldn't!) Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Don't think you can edit each others posts.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Ian and I are both immoderators...
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
What a busy day you lot have had! I think SCGB has awakened some slumbering monster...watch out SCGB I say! Twisted Evil
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I was thinking of being more helpful and just correcting peoples spelling!

I must admit I've found the last few days all very draining; I've lost a load of friends and then found (some) of them again; I've written some of my longest posts ever - involving cross referencing and two level numbering and I want it all to stop and go back to how we were before (but can we keep the nice software please?). Confused
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I vote for the nice software too! I would go back I think, but only so that Ubrain doesn't have to spend the rest of his life organising this site (looks like it will be a humongous task!) and only if everyone here agreed........otherwise I am more than happy to stay here.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I've also had a crazy few days.....but feel like I've hardly posted anything!! I think we should be able to add emails into the number count Very Happy

At the rate I'm going, friends reunited are going to ban me for sending spam out to all their customers Embarassed
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I vote to stay here (especially as I'm imminently not going to be a member!).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
I owuldn;t go back. I wouldn;y like to lose this site, but rather nothing than back to SCGB. They;ve done it once, what's to stop them doing it again if we go back?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
After a few days, we're all settling in nicely. It feels like home Laughing
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
There's no reason to lose this site nbt - even if u has to withdraw his facility it can be set up elsewhere. What I'm not sure about is whether the posts can be archived and stored in such a way that they could be retrieved / migrated to another server, or whether we would have to start again. Will have to look into that.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It's database driven so migrating posts shouldn;t be a problem. by "lose this site", though, my meaning was simply a popular forum not under the control of SCGB. This is already as popular the ski club forum seemed to be.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
As long as the people who are spending their hard earned free time don't mind doing it.....I for one wouldn't have a clue Neutral
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