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Tecnica Zero-G Tour Pro - One Year On ...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
under a new name wrote:
Well, I seem to be getting used to them. Blatted around in the sunshine up La Tour. Very nice snow. Speed limits and bumps operating as normal. Liners definitely packing in.

So freaking comfortable however!

Might still have some heel lifts put in. Decision on hold till after hols and shop's quiet enough for decent chat.


Is that just for extra forward lean?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What are the best after market liners for these. My Old Intuition Pro Tours take up too much space Puzzled
I think they sell Zipfits at Mountain Air. Any good?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@BobinCH, yeah just to be a bit more forwards.
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spyderjon wrote:
HammondR wrote:
I could have got this completely wrong; it wouldn't be the first time..

You're not wrong.


Actually I think you may be Puzzled

They fit perfectly to the front of the tongue but there’s nowhere obvious to fit them at the back?

I’m still struggling with being able to get forward in difficult snow - windcrust. What to try first?
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@BobinCH, hands a bit more forward? Concentrate on being forward? Ignore crust and go to the pub?
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HammondR wrote:
@PowderAdict, I have the Scout version; same liner but "only" 120 flex boot. My liners lasted 70 days, but are now packing out a little and being replaced. Miles better than Dynafit Vulcan liners (approximately 30 days).

ive just got the scouts had 2 days resort skiing in them. How heavy are you and why you choose the scout over the pro?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
HammondR wrote:
@PowderAdict, I have the Scout version; same liner but "only" 120 flex boot. My liners lasted 70 days, but are now packing out a little and being replaced. Miles better than Dynafit Vulcan liners (approximately 30 days).

ive just got the scouts had 2 days resort skiing in them. How heavy are you and why you choose the scout over the pro?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Mother hucker, you can say that again!
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@Mother hucker, as for the Scout; I didn't think about it too much. My fighting weight is about 12st 4lbs. I was previously perfectly happy with Lange Alpine boots at 120 flex, and Dynafit Vulcans (similar flex if not pattern of flex).

I am not a particularly aggressive or fast skier. I don't knowingly jump anything and try to only ski facing forwards. Of my wide range of similar or more competent ski chums it is only the Clydesdale's or balls out types that seemed to seek a stiffer boot. It was nothing to do with the 100 fewer English Pounds price of course...

Were you not happy with your purchase?
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@HammondR, yes very happy. i was torn between the 2 though and wasnt sure which to go for. I had some dynafit Mercury's which until 3 days ago i wore for everything. The scout feels so different in terms of how it flexes. I been having to keep tightening the scout up as the day goes on.
did you buy yours in Cham? i got mine from Sole boot lab
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under a new name wrote:
@BobinCH, hands a bit more forward? Concentrate on being forward? Ignore crust and go to the pub?
don’t think it’s the technique as don’t usually have the problem. Could be the touring skis (Kaestle TX98) with more of a stiff tail than my other rockers. But also feels like the boots have a lot less fore/aft support than my other boots so are not confidence inspiring on variable snow. Will try the shin supports tomorrow. Vid here of the conditions

http://youtube.com/v/C3jshF0hAlQ
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Mother hucker, bought mine before last season at Backcountry in Otley. Top service from Phil.

Interesting that you previously had the Mercurys. Vulcans were Mercurys with a carbon cuff. I had 3 full seasons (over 200 days) on the Dynafits. Starting on the Zero G last year took a day or two to get used to. Once tuned in I could not have gone back to them. Much more agreeable/even flex than the (in hindsight) harsher Vulcan.

Interested in the approach to fit you took. In Dynafit (Vulcan and TLT7) I am 27.5. OK fit. The Zero G last is different enough to leave me a little between sizes. After chewing it over with Phil I went for the 26.5 Tecnica. So more of a performance fit. This suited me as any help is welcome on the down. Not surprisingly, lots of modifications to fit in my grizzled wide feet, but they are as near to a light Alpine boot that goes uphill too as I could want.

I suspect that those groovy types in Sole had you sizing down?
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@BobinCH, have you tried Jon's suggestion from last month of lifting the toe piece of the binding with a shim (Perspex or the like)? If you compare the difference in height above the ski between the toe and heel of your boot comparing your Alpine boots and bindings, and your touring boots and bindings, I suspect it is lifting you up onto your tiptoes in the Zero G's. Relatively speaking.

I makes a considerable difference to me. Just look up all the old discussions on here about ramp/delta. It's not voodoo. It is an effect which some hardly seem to notice, while others can have their experience significantly spoiled by it and seems to be no respecter of ability (or absence thereof in my case).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@HammondR, Id loved to have gone to Ottley but my feet are small in length and chunky. . Usually im a size 24 in ski boots, which a stock check on line with Backcounty didnt have anything that small(nowhere in the UK had a selection of 24's)
Fit is snugg in there, not alpine race boot snugg i'm going to need a punch on 1 of the ankle bones but other than that the fit is perfect. Im thinking at the end of the season having some custom liners
Seb chose the zero G due to being able to work on it easiest as such a short lenght doesnt give the chunkiness room needed.
Im very very happy with the fit. Just the transition from the Dynafit in terms of flex felt very strange
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@HammondR, thanks for that. Just googled it and looks like you need DIY skills / longer screws / tools that I don’t have. Did you do it yourself or take it to a shop? And what thickness of shim did you use?

I have Marker Griffons on the DPS 124A and Shifts on Blizzard Rustler 11’s which both work well. The Kastle TX98 / Xenics / Zero-G’s feel completely different. Will also try the boots with the other skis to see what’s the boots versus the bindings / skis
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@BobinCH, you put quiver killers in the toe piece holes and then use M5 machine screws.

There are four or five things that might be different between the setups. Angle of the bootboard, boot forward lean, cuff angle and binding delta.

Starting point would be taking measurements from the setup you like and then comparing that to the one you like less.

It is a lot, lot easier to get a pro to do this. Not sure whether Mountain Air like doing this kind of stuff. It's been a very long time since I was last there.
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@HammondR, @gorilla, thanks for the advice. Assume adding forward lean to the boot (with the additional screws supplied) would make things worse if the delta angle is the problem? Trying the boots with the Blizzards/Shifts tomorrow to compare.
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BobinCH wrote:
.....Assume adding forward lean to the boot (with the additional screws supplied) would make things worse if the delta angle is the problem?.....

Yep
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@BobinCH, best of luck. Key thing here if you are doing DIY is to change only one thing at once.
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Actually can you stick the pinnacles in the xenics and see what happens?
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Shift with an alpine sole (Pinnacle) = 2mm of delta versus Shift with a full AT sole (Zero G) = 8mm of delta. There's your answer!

I ski my Shifts with a AT sole (Dynafit Mercury) and have a 6mm shim under the toe.
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spyderjon wrote:
Shift with an alpine sole (Pinnacle) = 2mm of delta versus Shift with a full AT sole (Zero G) = 8mm of delta. There's your answer!

I ski my Shifts with a AT sole (Dynafit Mercury) and have a 6mm shim under the toe.

Jon would you say the 6mm extra would make a massive difference to pushing your centre of mass back? also would i be right in saying it would be worse with a smaller boot as the angle would be even greater?
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@Mother hucker, I had this exact conversation with @spyderjon the other day, but regarding F12s rather than Shifts. I swapped to the Zero-G boot and wondered why my legs were knackered when I was skiing off piste the other day. “6mm+ delta” says Jon. F-k me, 2.5 runs and I was done. Unfortunately I needed the other 0.5 to get back to the car Confused
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Scarlet wrote:
@Mother hucker, I had this exact conversation with @spyderjon the other day, but regarding F12s rather than Shifts. I swapped to the Zero-G boot and wondered why my legs were knackered when I was skiing off piste the other day. “6mm+ delta” says Jon. F-k me, 2.5 runs and I was done. Unfortunately I needed the other 0.5 to get back to the car Confused


The thigh burn...
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@BobinCH, Fire, I tell you.
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under a new name wrote:


Might still have some heel lifts put in. Decision on hold till after hols and shop's quiet enough for decent chat.


They won’t help; you’ll always be shorter than your Mrs!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mother hucker wrote:
......Jon would you say the 6mm extra would make a massive difference to pushing your centre of mass back? also would i be right in saying it would be worse with a smaller boot as the angle would be even greater?

Yes, no, maybe. My homie was spot on with his post above:
HammondR wrote:
.....It is an effect which some hardly seem to notice, while others can have their experience significantly spoiled by it and seems to be no respecter of ability.......
.

For those that notice this change then 6mm is a lot. And yes, the shorter the bsl the greater the effect as the boot sole is at a steeper angle (which is why delta is measured in mm and not degrees) but those with shorter boots are likely to be shorter in height so for some that may counter the forward movement of the body caused by the steeper boot. Whereas for those with long boots the effect won't be as great however bigger feet usually belong to taller folk and the forward movement of the body is more the taller you are.

And it's not just the binding delta that can cause the problem. As has been said before, the angle of the internal boot board (zeppa) and the forward lean angle of the boot may increase or reduce the effect. And as the angle of the internal boot board and the forward lean angle vary from boot model to boot model it means that switching boots changes everything.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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@spyderjon, trying to compare the Zero-G’s in the Xenic vs Shift





I think this means I’m going to have the same delta in either binding?



But now I’m confused as the angle seems even greater in the Pinnacles



Or is that due to the different height of the front spoiler vs foot in the boot?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
BobinCH wrote:




But now I’m confused as the angle seems even greater in the Pinnacles



Just realizes AFD in that pic set for Zero-G’s doh...
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@BobinCH, use a spirit level with a digital readout to measure the angle of the footboard in the bindings in each boot. Phone is great for this if it fits.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
No need to remove the liner and faff with spirit levels etc just measure from the underside of the sole at both the toe and heel to the base of the ski and deduct the toe measurement from the heel measurement to give you the actual delta in mm with that boot in that binding on that

Like this pic of 5mm delta of an alpine sole in a Pivot 12/14 GW binding.



This method also allows for any difference in the ski thickness under the toe binding compared to under the heel binding.
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@spyderjon, but where to measure from on the Zero-G toe? It’s curved.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Measure from the lowest point of the sole at both the toe and heel, even if the lowest point at the toe is behind/below the contact point with the AFD. You're essentially comparing the angle of the boot to when it's just standing on a flat/level surface like the ground or a table top - which would be zero delta.

Here's my AT boot on a flat surface = zero delta



Here's my AT boot in my Shifts with a 5mm toe shim = 4mm delta which is ok for me but I prefer 2mm (which is what I tested to on the Neutralizer balancer) so I'm going to add another 2mm shim. Most alpine bindings have 2-6mm delta. Without the shims then the Shifts, with my make/model of boot installed, give 9mm of delta which is brutal for me and many others but some don't notice it all.



Many tech bindings have a delta of 8-10mm (Rad 2/Rotation/Kingpin/Vipec/Tecton etc) and many of the old skool Dynafit tech bindings (Comfort/Vertical/Speed Rads/Speed Turns etc) had 15-17mm!


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 5-01-20 22:11; edited 1 time in total
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spyderjon wrote:
Measure from the lowest point of the sole at both the toe and heel, even if the lowest point at the toe is behind/below the contact point with the AFD.

You're essentially comparing the angle of the boot to when it's just standing on a flat/level surface like the ground or a table top - which would be zero delta.


now I understand what the !@£$%^& we are talking about
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Presumably, the measured delta is of little use (to me) unless I know what my ideal delta should be and (possibly more importantly initially) how far forward my bindings should be mounted on my current skis - which probably requires a visit to CEM's ski balancer with both skis and boots?
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@spyderjon, ok will try that. Boots much better yesterday with Shifts / Blizzards. But also squeezed my old Intuition Pro Tours and the shin inserts into the boots which stiffened things up. More tests next weekend... The guy in Mountain Air didn’t really know what I was talking about so perhaps a trip to Sole is warranted.
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On a slightly different note.

I reached the top of my climb yesterday to find that the walk/ski mode mechanism was hanging off one of my boots. One of the screws had disappeared and the other was hanging on by a couple of threads. I tightened it up and it was secure enough for the rock hard ski down. My boots are over a year old and I have never had the mechanism off or touched the screws.
It might be worth checking yours and maybe applying some loctite.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
oui4ski wrote:
Presumably, the measured delta is of little use (to me) unless I know what my ideal delta should be and (possibly more importantly initially) how far forward my bindings should be mounted on my current skis - which probably requires a visit to CEM's ski balancer with both skis and boots?

Knowing your ideal delta is handy, especially if you suspect that you have a problem getting foward/thighs burning out yet your posture is good. This could have been triggered by an equipment change when prior to that everything was hunky dory - which appears to be the case with BobinCH.

CEM /Andy McCann have a boot balancer gizmo that will assess for both lateral canting and delta angle for you in your specific nake/model of boot. But it's also possible for you to experiment wth your delta yourself. If it's an equipment change that's caused the issue then comparing the delta of the old versus new kit is easy to do. If you've not made an equipment chang but have issues then checking for excessive delta in your set-up is worth doing. From there it's easy to stand in your boots on a flat level surface and play around with your delta by putting thin shims under the toes/heel of your boots to vary the delta etc whilst assessing how well you balance with each change. I'd start by replicating your existing delta and adjust from there - with most people preferring a reduction.

Making changes to your binding delta can be a doddle to a nightmare depending on the bindings. Flat mounted bindings need suitably longer screws (which I can usually supply) or if you have/install Quiver Killer inserts then it's a doddle to change the delta/screw length. Some rail systems will accept a thin shim between the rail and ski bit most won't. In the last year I've had a number of customers come to me with problems with teir latest Head Supershape skis on which Head/Tyroliia's latest rail binding has 8/9mm of delta which is huge. A couple just sold the skis but on the others we swapped out the complete binding system.

The fore/aft position of the bindings on the ski is irrelevant - and CEM cannot test for that. I've got a Campbell Balancer which does but it really only works well with conventional camber skis as rockered tips"n"tails introduce too much error etc.
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@zzz, yikes!

Mine were certainly loctited in the factory...
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@spyderjon, many thanks for the detailed explanation. So the delta effectively measures changes to the boot forward lean relative to the bottom of the ski (rather than grinding a boot footbed or adding a heel lift which will change your foot sole angle) depending upon the binding and ski thickness where the bindings are attached?

I've unhelpfully changed boots, skis and bindings (Mk3 Mantra/Marker Duke/Alpine boots to M5/Shifts/Mk1 Tecnica Zero G Pro) in the last few years, but have never considered either delta or fore/aft binding position - time to play with some Screwfix shims to potentially reduce that backseat feeling!
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