 Poster: A snowHead
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Daughter is looking for a new (second hand!) pair of skis, has skied one week a season since age 3, now 27 so a very competent skier, tho' not a lot of off piste experience, she's 5'3"/160cm, around 8st/50kg, skis fast, confident & aggressively
How much weight do you accord to the men's/women's designation on skis? I realise women have lower CoG & different characteristics, but she's currently skiing an ancient (early 2000's I'd guess) pair of 153cm Elan SCX men's skis (9.0m radius IIRC) which were mine previously, so I'm guessing almost anything more modern & less knackered would be an improvement. She's looking to do a bit more off piste where she can, but doesn't want to go up significantly on length (unnecessary at her weight I would think)
Obviously looking at what's available second hand, even at the 150 - 155cm range there's a lot more bloke's than girls stuff available, hence the Q. Been offered a pair of Atomic Nomad at 157cm at a good price, which I believe are a bloke's ski?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Russbost, It doesn't really matter. Sometime the men's version is the same at the women's with fewer pink flowers. Sometime it is a little stiffer. I am similar size to your daughter, and the main problem I find with men's ranges is that they start too long, but if you have found something the right size then that's great.
It is more important to look at the characteristics of the ski (length, width, stiffness, rocker etc.) and match that to her needs, rather than taking much notice of whom it is marketed to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As understand it, Women's Skis are lighter; narrower/more shaped, for easier turning; less stiff flexing, with mounting points a bit further forward....and sometimes have a more forward tilting Ramp Angle.
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She would be well advised to spend a week trying lots of different skis from a decent hire shop before she buys. Skis have come on quite a lot in the last 20 years! Having said that, the nomads are utterly terrible imho and she will probably hate them after the short turn piste skis she is on currently.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Old Fartbag, in other words, a little more suited to the weaker sex?
I find the concept of women's skis somewhat distateful. I suspect Ms Vonn would agree. My wife definitely agrees.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, in other words, a little more suited to the weaker sex?
I find the concept of women's skis somewhat distateful. I suspect Ms Vonn would agree. My wife definitely agrees. |
I wouldn't put it like that.
More suited to their physiology, perhaps - The fairer sex are built differently, you know! 
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@Old Fartbag, I don't think you can generalise about how different genders are built. I have met many men who are smaller and lighter than me, and I'm far from the largest female I have ever met. I have men's skis now, the newer version of the Nomads (Vantage 80X CTi), but I have previously had women's skis. The only difference as I could see is that the women's skis tend to be available in shorter sizes and can have 'prettier' top sheets.
FWIW the Nomads are much heavier than my skis, Atomic have definitely lost some weight in the past couple of years.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| As understand it, Women's Skis........sometimes have a more forward tilting Ramp Angle. |
There's no such thing as ramp angle is skis. Ramp angle is in boots and delta angle is in skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Klamm Franzer wrote: |
| She would be well advised to spend a week trying lots of different skis from a decent hire shop before she buys. Skis have come on quite a lot in the last 20 years! Having said that, the nomads are utterly terrible imho and she will probably hate them after the short turn piste skis she is on currently. |
Yes, completely see where you're coming from, & in an ideal world that would be great, but she only has a budget of £100 or so & would easily blow that within a week hiring different skis & still have nothing new to ski on next year. Interesting what you say about the Nomads, I thought they had good reviews, but on further reading I may have been looking at Nomad Smoke rather than Intruder
@Scarlet,
"It is more important to look at the characteristics of the ski (length, width, stiffness, rocker etc.) and match that to her needs, rather than taking much notice of whom it is marketed to" - yeah, that was largely my feeling, the only thing that made me wonder a bit is her weight, you don't find many blokes under 10st, never mind 8st. My other daughter skis Salomon 120cm mini skis (not blades these have normal bindings) & she has skied everything from deep fresh powder (did need to have a bit of speed on  ) to tough blacks like the Wall & Tunnel on those without any problems & she's probably a stone heavier
Has anyone on here got any experience of K2 Lotta Luv, K2 Luv Glam, Blizzard Viva RC or Armada Cantika by any chance, all those are on Ebay at suitable lengths, she has decided she defo wants to come away from anything with such a short radius as the Elans, she finds them very twitchy at high speed (which I also recall & I was 2 & 1/2 stone heavier than her when I had them!)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting thread.
I was sceptical though Fartbag's links seem to have some logic.
Could take the view of what is optimal. That is to say woman can ski perfectly OK with mens boots, skis and set up but that it would help them to have use their own version - especially more recently with more knowledge of this being built in.
My daughter is going to be using mens ski's on our next trip - hand me downs from her brother but I guess the differences aren't so pronounced in girls.
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@Old Fartbag, I was, of course, being deliberately provocative 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| As understand it, Women's Skis........sometimes have a more forward tilting Ramp Angle. |
There's no such thing as ramp angle is skis. Ramp angle is in boots and delta angle is in skis. |
I stand corrected.
I was going by this: "Some women’s skis have a slightly forward tilting ramp angle compared with unisex skis to move a women’s lower center of gravity forward."
They obviously used the wrong terminology....and that's my excuse!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kooky, has just bought her first ever womens specific ski, a Black Crow Camox Birdie all mountain ski. She has a fatter powder ski but usually skis her son's old Elan 155cm FIS SL skis (teen racer) with no problem and she is only 50kg.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think this is a classic area where variations within one sex are bigger than average differences between the sexes.
The right ski is going to be more influenced by your weight, speed, dynamism exactly where your CoG sits...
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That said, as a bloke with a relatively large backside I do think my favoured ski posture is adapted - I prefer a little ramp and bend a little forward at the waist to bring my CoG forward to centre over my feet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
| That said, as a bloke with a relatively large backside I do think my favoured ski posture is adapted - I prefer a little ramp and bend a little forward at the waist to bring my CoG forward to centre over my feet. |
If you can do this......:
The Chair Trick
If you’re a woman and want to humiliate a man, invite him to watch you do this:
Stand with your toes touching a wall.
Placing one foot immediately behind the other, take two steps back.
Have him place a chair between you and the wall.
Bend at the waist and place the top of your head against the wall.
Lift the chair.
Stand erect.
Now challenge him to do the same. If he’s like most men he’ll get stuck on step 6. The common explanation is that men’s hips are built differently; they also have proportionally bigger feet. Either way, you can easily pick his pocket while he’s struggling there.
.....You are really an Old Woman....and I claim my five pounds! 
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How to design a women's ski
1 Take a men's ski
2 Pink it
3 Shrink it (in length)
4 Smoke a roll up and go to the bar
More seriously take advice from the real women on this thread rather than over-opinionated blokes
(so that's fixx & Scarlet basically)
(apologies to anyone else who is female/trans)
Almost anything will be less twitchy than a short SCX, personally out of the ones listed I'd should for Armada on brand alone as an allround ski.
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As it often happens in the men vs women discussions, most of the arguments for the greater difference are based on "average". But the one-size-fits-all solution does not exist, and the variations within the same sex are way greater than the difference between genders. Similarly, your daughter's individual preferences, strength, skiing ability and technique has more impact than her gender.
The women's skis are generally for weaker and lighter skiers (I.e. average). I personally didn't find the binding positioning to have any significant effect.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Daedra, this.
The skis don't know what gender you are.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Daedra, this.
The skis don't know what gender you are. |
Neither can you change your morphology - only get skis that allow for/maximize it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Old Fartbag, Sure, but I don't think for anyone not on the WC circuit that it's that big an issue (nor noticeable).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, Sure, but I don't think for anyone not on the WC circuit that it's that big an issue (nor noticeable). |
What we need, is somebody who knows what they are talking about.....rather than opinionated blokes.
My "guess", is that just like getting boots correctly set up for you feet/legs, it could prove important....but not in every case.
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@Old Fartbag, I may be opinionated, everyone has an opinion, but I’ve 40 years of being a ski geek and hanging out with “experts” to base my opinion on ...
Discussion a few years ago on skis, Völkl launched a girlie ski, discussion with chum who owns high end ski shop,
Me:“what makes it a girls’ ski”,
My chum who is as expert as you get: “it’s aimed at good girl skiers who might be intimidated by the Mantra’s “burly” macho reputation, so it’s more or less identical, but purple and pink and they suggest it might be a bit softer”.
c.f. DotM remark above.
Call me a generalist but I’ve never heard anything more scientific than that.
I don’t know what I’m talking about, but I do know that no-one has ever presented me with any argument for womens’ skis other than, lighter, softer, flowers, pink and soft and furry.
Which, you know, these days? Really?
Actually, all that said, I have skied a girls ski myself. Rossignol “Grande Courbe” designed specifically for teenage downhillers (not available in shops) (so girlies about my weight and strength at the time, if I was on a good day) 210cm, a little shorter and a lot softer than a full on Rossi DH ski. Metallic purple with gold graphics to appeal to the girlies aesthetic.
Quite delightful and much more forgiving than another chums near current 213 Nordica DHs and the exception, that, etc.?
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, you touched a topic I'm curious about.
I personally like GS-like 100% piste skis, with big-ish radius, my current ones have 18 radius. This is just about how I like to ski, not about my ability.
First, slightly off topic, when people recommend skis parameters, they ask for weight, height and ability. But obviously required length for 9m and 18m would be dramatically different. Could never understand that.
More to the topic. Not that I really searched for it, but I didn't see any female-marketed GS-like skis. Do they even exist? At the same time the proper fis compliant gs women skis are available in the shops.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, I may be opinionated, everyone has an opinion, but I’ve 40 years of being a ski geek and hanging out with “experts” to base my opinion on ...
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I was also referring to me.
What isn't an opinion, is the different morphology and biomechanics of women....as indicated by my links. Designing a ski, that takes that into account is only sensible.
My argument is simply making this point - and not making any judgement about whether it is preferable in individual cases.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Old Fartbag, ah haha, I don't think we have that many experts to call upon. @spyderjon may be one or @CH20. I totally agree with you that the biomechs are different. But I don't believe that manufacturers actually take this into account for skis.
I think it's mostly marketing. Boots may be different - I seem to recall female specific ones to accommodate the potentially different lower leg physiology. This may of course, also be marketing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Daedra, the radius refers to the actual side cut radius (i.e. the radius you would arrive at with the skis flat on the ground) which for a modern slalom ski would be maybe 12m or so (for a 165 Völkl FIS ski).
If you consider that, iirc, and got my measurements right - I have a pair of ~1998 "slalom" skis with a sidecut radius of around 45m (!) it's a slightly meaningless figure once you get into 3 dimensions and consider torsional flex, etc.
Race skis are "unisex" - the differences between "Women's" and "Men's" are that the FIS rules restrict minimum lengths for each discipline so on snow for World Cup men can't go shorter than 165cm and women 155cm (or at least the last time I looked).
So if you want a GS-ish race "style" ski, look at something like this, https://www.voelkl.com/en/products/skis/racing/racetiger-rc-red-7848/ - however, my Blizzard Bonafides ski like a fat GS ski and feel at least as rigid (stiffness a poor heuristic for torsional rigidity) as my FIS GS skis. Actually feel more rigid than my SGs!
If that ramble makes any sense?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Russbost, as a similarly short female (definitely not very lady like at all!) I've skied female specific skis for the last 10 years primarily as once out the hire market it's bloomin difficult to find men's skis that are less than I am tall. I am significantly heavier (and than I should be!) than your daughter so have loved my Volkl Fuegos as they were very weighty piste ski which is my preferred domain but I also have a hardly used pair of rossignol temptation 84 in 154 that might suit her - they weren't meaty enough for me but suspect my weight didn't help plus they were a bit wide for my liking. I'll try and find a link for the them.
Edit: found https://www.skis.com/Rossignol-Temptation-84-Womens-Skis-with-Saphir-110-Bindings-2015/351607P,default,pd.html
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@always29, possibly a bit wide for her at her weight, what sort of money were you looking for? If sensible I guess she could buy & try & if she didn't like them sell them on
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 20-11-19 18:45; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name,
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my Blizzard Bonafides ski like a fat GS ski and feel at least as rigid (stiffness a poor heuristic for torsional rigidity) as my FIS GS skis
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It would be going some for a 100mm wide ski (?) to be as tortionally rigid as a 68mm wide ski wouldn't it? The leverage across the wider ski would be much higher for a given edge angle meaning they'd have to be MUCH burlier? Unless I'm embarrassing myself with rusty mechanics?
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@Daedra,
Like you I find it surprising how few people looking for a ski recommendation talk about what sort of radius they like/are looking for. It obviously matters less for a ski focused on soft snow when you are going to pivot and drift much more but for ski you plan to use in firm conditions it is a key criteria for me. Personally I really like 18m radius for firm snow too - you can still bend it nice and tight when you want to but its stable in big arcs too.
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@jedster,
thought I'd covered the radius with saying the Elan's are, I believe, just 9m & that she's looking for something more forgiving, I would have thought given her size & weight something around 14 to 15m would be about right
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Russbost, £100 would do it - where abouts are you and I might be able to courier them in that too. They have had less than 2 weeks usage says the long suffering other half who despairs at me trying to replace my beloved Fuegos.
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@always29, We're S.Essex, Benfleet, my daughter just down the road at Pitsea. Let me have a think & a chat with my daughter & see what else is available, (I've stuck a wanted ad up, but no replies as yet) but may well come back to you on that if we can make it £100 inc delivery
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FAQ
).
) so I couldn't be 100% sure they weren't tilted a little forward (or back). Given F anatomy perhaps tilting back (at least for some) would be the thing? 
