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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
leggyblonde wrote:
A bit like attitudes towards gay people back in the day- "get your backs to the wall lads, nudge, nudge,wink,wink".


Sadly I don't think we've completely left that behind. I always find it funny when homophobes seem some how concerned that gay people want to sleep with them, as if said homophobe is somehow irresistible
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Dave of the Marmottes, so a woman has to prove or pass some test to say she has 'genuine reasons' to not be labelled bigotted if she feels vulnerable but it is assumed a trans women is vulnerable if sharing with men, no need to prove it? Need to make it fair for all to feel comfortable, that is all I am saying.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Cheesie168, Though I agree with your point, knowing DotM I doubt that's what he meant
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Genuine reason = genuinely an individual's feelings not simply what a third party supposes are or ought to be their feelings and fears. Usually "I'm sorry I'm not comfortable with that" would suffice as explanation.

No need to disclose whether the genuine feelings are as a result of bigotry/religious indoctrination/previous experience/not wanting to share cake etc*


* However on the subject of cake I think there are different standards that apply when serving the public.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Genuine reason = genuinely an individual's feelings not simply what a third party supposes are or ought to be their feelings and fears. Usually "I'm sorry I'm not comfortable with that" would suffice as explanation.

No need to disclose whether the genuine feelings are as a result of bigotry/religious indoctrination/previous experience/not wanting to share cake etc*


* However on the subject of cake I think there are different standards that apply when serving the public.


Cake or death.....
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The cake is a lie
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
The cake is a lie


That's impossible.
Instead, only realize the truth.
There is no cake Shocked
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
It's extraordinary how some people struggle if confronted with a little baby of indeterminate gender. I used to play with avoiding letting on and watching people struggle to know how to talk to it. We all need to look at ourselves! For the vast majority of transactions in this life you really don't need to know the gender of the person with whom you are interacting.
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@pam w, But do we actually though. I think most people are good and decent and tolerant. As far as i can see, in the gender debate, at either end of opinion, there is a pretty equal attitude of intolerance and lack of understanding, and far too much trying to railroad opinions onto people by trying to shame oponents by playing some card or other. This is not a black and white issue, there is a huge grey area, and because of that, there must be tolerance and debate. Offence and accusation won't get us anywhere.
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pam w wrote:
It's extraordinary how some people struggle if confronted with a little baby of indeterminate gender. I used to play with avoiding letting on and watching people struggle to know how to talk to it. We all need to look at ourselves! For the vast majority of transactions in this life you really don't need to know the gender of the person with whom you are interacting.

That's much easier in English than in languages which are inflected for gender, though. It's hard to get far in conversation with the parents (or the baby when the parents are inevitably present) without using adjectives.... "Aren't they lovely!" doesn't exist in most of the continent... Wink
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:

I think most people are good and decent and tolerant

I agree, but most of us are accustomed to making judgements about gender very early in any transaction. I do find myself thinking "is that a man or a woman?" then telling myself that as I am not planning to screw them, and there's no sign they have any sexual interest in me, it really doesn't matter.

As for babies, I have a range of things I say to new babies I meet - things such as "what a little darling!" or "you're a sweetheart, aren't you?". I love babies and such remarks are genuinely heartfelt and avoid having to say "is it a boy or a girl". When my daughter was born in Barbados everybody assumed she was a boy because Barbadian girls generally have their ears pierced immediately!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
^ see my post above Wink (not that it's a particularly relevant concern for most people on here, of course; but what I wouldn't give for a shortlist of gender-neutral pleasantries on this side of the Channel Happy)


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 7-11-19 22:02; edited 2 times in total
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@pam w, Fair points.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
There's no such thing as "cis" humans: it's a pseudoscientific term to make it seem as though we are on a spectrum of dysphoria with trans at one end and healthy at the other. There are men/women and transgender/transsexual men and women. This used to be considered a mental disorder but the WHO pulled it from the list after lobbying from trans groups: not scientists of course, activists.

There's unfortunately acres to be written on this but as Douglas Murray said in 'The Madness of Crowds" we should be arguing about how to build underwater cities not how to dismantle the concepts of sex that we've known to be true until about 48hrs ago.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Dave of the Marmottes, except for that convicted rapist who was locked up with women as he said the he "identified" as a woman, then went on to sexually harass and (I think) assault the female prisoners. See also the case of Jonathan Yaniv and the "Wax my Hairy Balls" case in Canada.

Yes, it does happen.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 8-11-19 2:30; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@leggyblonde, drivel: being gay doesn't require removing your pint or having fake breasts stuck on. There is a line between ignorance and genuine concern as to what the trans activists are trying to ram through and simply being automatically being pro-trans activist won't put you on the right side of history.There is not an essential equivalence between gay rights and another minority rights campaigns, LGBT as a group doesn't make sense.

The latest lunacy is calling lesbians who won't have sex with a transgender person with a pint (aka a man) are bigots as after all if someone says they're a woman/man they are, aren't they? Despite the fact it's called homoSEXuality gays and lesbians are being asked to pretend that a big hairy muff or big sweaty set of balls don't have an innate masculinity or femininity to them.

There's a Youtube talker who's occasionally quite sensible called Contrapoints who had a video and stated that a 'transgender' pe nis can become feminine if it's presented in a feminine setting. This is palpable dangly bits (pun intended).


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 8-11-19 13:31; edited 2 times in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@justabod, Well I guess we know which side of the line you stand then. What a load of bigoted b00locks.
snow conditions     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
justabod wrote:
There are men/women and transgender/transsexual men and women. This used to be considered a mental disorder but the WHO pulled it from the list after lobbying from trans groups: not scientists of course, activists.
.


Just to point out that of course homosexuality used to be considered a mental disorder too, I'm sure there was lobbying from homosexual group activists involved in the decision to remove it as well, do you think that decision was wrong too?
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justabod wrote:
See also the case of Jonathan Yaniv and the "Wax my Hairy Balls" case in Canada.


I've got a great idea, lets judge everyone by the acts of one fruit loop.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@justabod, You're confusing a person's sex, sexuality and gender.
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justabod wrote:
The argument is that you can have a "feminine p enis"


No it isn't. It's a made up argument by
Quote:
the minds and youtube channels of people trying to discredit the trans movement for their own weird reasons that they never dare to actually articulate out loud and so seek to cloak with made up crap like the above.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 8-11-19 14:34; edited 1 time in total
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@clarky999, Well said. Perhaps it's time to let it go, be nice and look forward to snow...or argue about snow chains Happy
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@SnoodlesMcFlude, not what I said. I was replying to DotM. He said that men pretending to be women for sexual or other advantage doesn't happen, I gave examples of when it does. That's one of the reasons for segregated toilets.

@Alastair Pink, nice try. Removing homosexuality overnight from (I think) DSM-III was the greatest mass cure in human history. Somewhat undermines psychiatry as a science doesn't it?

I would argue that any mental illness that leads someone to damage their body is indeed a mental illness. See here for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria. If you were a surgeon would you amputate despite the risks? This is the route we've gone down with cosmetic surgery. There are always risks attached and you see this in articles about people going abroad to have their back bottom or breasts inflated. They blame the clinic but it happens in the UK as well: it's nothing to do with the fact the surgery was in Turkey it's because all procedures have a risk attached but this is glossed over by what is a business at heart, the cosmetic clinics. We're not talking about young burns victims it's vain people who want to look 'better'.
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Quote:

This whole thread is weird: a well-meaning organisation tries to be a bit more inclusive to a demographic who are still discrimanted against more than most, and a few straight white (probably) people get their knickers in a twist because as the problem isn't a problem for them and people like them (majority of society) they just can't quite understand that it is actually a problem.

@clarky999, +1
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justabod wrote:
@SnoodlesMcFlude, not what I said. I was replying to DotM. He said that men pretending to be women for sexual or other advantage doesn't happen, I gave examples of when it does. That's one of the reasons for segregated toilets.



Except your whataboutery proof was somewhat extreme. Your best arguments are an already convicted rapist and a professional troll? Really?
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Quote:

I would argue that any mental illness that leads someone to damage their body is indeed a mental illness

One doesn't need to have any surgery to identify as any gender. You are showing that you don't know what you are talking about.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
As a female, I would be very uncomfortable selecting to share a single sex space and then discovering that a person with a pint had self identified into it. Dave seems to think that a big hairy transwoman wouldn't be allowed in. This is a common misconception. The whole point of Self-ID is that ANYONE (hairy, or otherwise) is permitted to ID as female. You cannot discriminate and say "sorry, you look a bit hairy you can't come in"

For everyone who thinks that my opinion is "reactionary" please have a quick look at this recent list of transwomen who have killed or raped women

https://twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186

Click the link and keep scrolling down. I suspect you've already made your mind up on the issue, but I wanted to comment anyway. Certainly not all men are dangerous. But certainly some are. And that's the entire basis of having single sex spaces for women. There is no way to tell which men are safe and which aren't so women should have the CHOICE of using single sex accommodation if that is what they wish. It's a choice.

This isn't "bigoted" or "phobic" it's just women's rights. I don't think any man has the right to tell a women that she should share accommodation with another man if she doesn't want to.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Dave of the Marmottes, yet these people do exist don't they and are dangerous. This is why women sometimes have to have their own spaces such as toilets and prisons. Women and men are also socially different which is why not many men go on spa weekends and not many women go for monster drinking sessions at the rugby club. Segregation can be by choice and for positive reasons rather than negative.

Essentially your point was that any concerns someone might have about sharing a room with a man who says they are female are only in the minds of bigots.

@clarky999, no it is happening in the real world hence the split in Stonewall and the creation of the LGB Alliance.

Not every lesbian wants to sleep with every woman but she DOES want to sleep with women which is why she is a lesbian. They are attracted to the feminine appearance and, sigh, PE NISES ARE MALE. The argument is that you can have a "feminine p enis" which is a nonsense argument that is nonetheless the logical conclusion of the "trans women are women" argument. This can be seen in an article today on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50289607. There is a short name for "everyone with a vagina" and it's 'women'.

No I think they're showing off how woke they are.

What does the colour of anyone's skin have to do with it? The UK pop is 87% white so if anyone expresses a concern about the trans movement it's most likely to come from a white person isn't it? Odd.

@leggyblonde, if that's the case then why do so many people with gender dysphoria have it carried out? They also take hormones which are not without risk either. Anyway, 'identifying' as a gender is surely as a product of dysphoria isn't it, one of the treatments for which is surgery/hormones?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@justabod, nope. Many trans people are non-binary and so don't want/feel the need to modify their bodies.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
justabod wrote:

@Alastair Pink, nice try. Removing homosexuality overnight from (I think) DSM-III was the greatest mass cure in human history. Somewhat undermines psychiatry as a science doesn't it?

It does.

Not “undermine”, but rather shows how little “science” there is in psychiatry. Wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
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leggyblonde wrote:
@justabod, nope. Many trans people are non-binary and so don't want/feel the need to modify their bodies.

Surely this should be "Many trans people consider themselves non-binary and so don't want/feel the need to modify their bodies". Like it or not biologically, humans can't be non-binary, it's in our DNA.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I wonder if this topic should have been placed in Apres?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think some of it should be placed in the comments section of the Daily Express
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@MikeM, you're confusing sex and gender.

and even when it comes to a person's sex, this is wrong too:
Quote:

biologically, humans can't be non-binary, it's in our DNA.

For a start humans can have XX, XY, XXY and XYY chromosomes. And even then, people with XX chromosomes can have male genitalia naturally
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@leggyblonde, those are tiny quantities of people who often only find out when they have medical tests for unrelated symptoms. The actual number of true intersex people is minute. A handful of variation doesn't make the idea of two sexes invalid. There is always variation in nature.
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+1 Justabod

Leggyblonde - intersex people aren't what we are talking about here.
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leggyblonde wrote:
For a start humans can have XX, XY, XXY and XYY chromosomes. And even then, people with XX chromosomes can have male genitalia naturally


What would be great to know is what is the % of people that have had sex reassignment surgery because of medical conditions and those that are normal healthy* XX/XY people that just decided they felt like being different. It would be good to see it say over a period of of the last decade/2 decades to understand the trend.

Simply put for those without medical conditions, the surgery is superficial and does not change their nature (chromosomal)

* I say healthy here, ignoring psychological issues. I am sure the decision to undergo such a surgery is not taken lightly and I am sure I would learn alot talking to someone that has undergone such a surgery. However, I see the surgery as a solution to a problem but not necessarily removing the underlying driver. A very simplistic analogy is like that of a doctor prescribing sleeping pills to someone who cannot sleep because they have an anxious/worrying nature - rather than trying to work to understand and remove the need to take medicine.
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@Stinkpickle, I know, we are talking about gender but some people don't know the difference and many people think there are only two of each
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justabod wrote:


Not every lesbian wants to sleep with every woman but she DOES want to sleep with women which is why she is a lesbian. They are attracted to the feminine appearance and, sigh, PE NISES ARE MALE. The argument is that you can have a "feminine p enis" which is a nonsense argument that is nonetheless the logical conclusion of the "trans women are women" argument.


That's not the argument, that's your argument.

It's pretty irrelevent to this thread, but you are certainly not in a position to say that no lesbian is ever attracted to someone with a feminine appearance who *also* happens to have a pint, or that the appearance of someone's genitalia is the main driver of attraction. Most attractions occur before seeing the other person naked, for a start.
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leggyblonde wrote:
@Stinkpickle, I know, we are talking about gender but some people don't know the difference and many people think there are only two of each

I tried to convey the difference by using the term "biologically" . Of course sex and gender are different, but whereas one's sex is determined by DNA (and is normally binary as intersex chromosomes are a result of errors during meiosis), gender appears to be a choice.
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