 Poster: A snowHead
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@LaForet, I would agree that careful selection of snowchains is appropriate. Buying cheapos on ebay is not. I will continue with my trusty Spikes Spiders simply because I know they will work and they have never let me down. Buying a full set for around £100 has given me enough spare parts for my expected lifetime.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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+1 for spikes spiders 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Of 24 (return) trips using transfer coaches, chains have been fitted 3 times.
One minibus transfer where the police insisted they be fitted (rightly so but the Italian driver wasn't impressed).
5 car journeys into resort with one requiring chains but that was an Italian hire car without winters.
Overall I'd say that's a pretty high hit rate.
I've also driven up the Grimsel pass in a June blizzard. 6" of snow and a lightweight, rear wheel drive sports car, no chains and semi-slick tyres. It was... interesting?! The 2 4x4s balanced on the retaining wall (Italian job style) focused the mind somewhat.
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I've chained up a fair amount in US and Canada as well as strategically ignoring chain control signs on my usually FWD rental on others, depending on quality of the rubber, state of plowing, time of day etc etc etc Only twice have I failed - once on the highway from the Lake to Northstar where for some reason the chain nazis wouldn't allow a FWD even chained up and once getting up a very steep residential hill in an epic 3ft storm (parked at bottom and walked up).
BTW Cables FTW - once you've worked out what notch best fits the tyres then easy on, roll about 20m, tension and go.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We have been driving to the Val d'Anniviers for at least the last 12 winters, probably 6-8 times per winter and I have never fitted the chains on the way up. I have "bottled it" about 4 times on the way down the mountain and fitted them before we have left the warmth of the underground carpark, usually taking the chains off at approx 1100m. Once I kept them on to Aigle. Similarly I have had to use chains twice descending from Tignes on my annual trip to EK.
Only make of car I have ever fitted them to has been an Audi A3 (both hire car and our own car), always been a fairly mucky job both putting them on and taking them off. I keep a set of waterproof gloves in the box with the chains and also an old car mat in the boot to kneel on.
Hire cars from GVA always have snow tires and we fit either Michelin or Vredestein snow tires to our A3.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hire cars from the French side of GVA don't generally have winter tyres.
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Been skiing about 35 years, first few years was always on packages
First time I needed chains was a holiday in NZ where we had rented a campervan , I asked for chains plus a demonstration of how to fit them. Was shown the beginning of how to fit and told straightforward from there.
Ist day going over Arthur's pass near the top everyone was putting on chains so I got out and discovered there was a bit missing and couldn''t be fitted . I put my foot down got up and bought some more which I needed a few times for some of the ski roads.
Lived in the alps for a winter and needed them once or twice in a 4wd but not winter tyres.
Last 30 years I've been to the alps two or three times per year usually flying and renting occasionally driving and probably needed them on two or three occasions. I usually specify winter tyres and would definitely have used them more often without. Last time was in a rental car without winter tyres and had to buy some chains in the resort it was good weather and set fair so we decided to risk it but it snowed heavily on the last day and I'm glad I had them, it was very unpleasant going down hill.
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Once or twice a week in winter in nz. All the ski field access roads are sketchy AF.
I have to replace my chains every couple of years because they wear out -the roads aren’t sealed and a mix of mud and rock so the chains get pretty chewed up.
Have got it down to 2 minutes a wheel in daylight, bit longer in the dark.
Always a great laugh watching tourist tantrums on powder days when usually woman offers helpful advice to man on why he’s getting it wrong while man is covered in mud amping to get up the hill and losing the plot with tangled chains
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not needed chains on two trips in the Alps (Geneva to La Ros, February, and Geneva to VT, April). Done 5 trips in Scandinavia, 6-700 km journey (one way) each time. Needed chains for one of two trips to Hemsedal (to get up the last 3 km or so - FWD with winter tyres wasn't enough). Needed chains every day last year in Hafjell (Lillehammer), same car couldn't cope with the last 50 m up and down from our cabin; a lot of (not scandi) cars were chaining up for the 5 kms or so up the mountain but we managed fine without. With regular practice I was down below a minute per wheel, with bog standard basic chains.
So depending on how you count it, that's 2 out of 7 driving holidays, or chains on 9 of 20 driving days (all done with winter tyres).
I've not tried to count coach or minibus transfers but I can't recall one needing chains.
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On front wheel drive car quite a few times, if gradient gets really steep it's been the only option to drive up and down. Friends live on a very steep road and in falling snow with chains on front wheels the rear (handbrake operation) won't hold it from sliding down.
4WD car, carry chains and socks and never had to use them.
4WD Land Rover, carry chains and never used them.
Full sized coach transfer Alpe d'Huez, leaving in very heavy snowfall it wouldn't start uphill in main town high street, driver used chains as it was just sliding sideways. Ran about halfway downhill with chains on rear wheels as that's their principal braking before getting onto clear tarmac. Particularly soft silky snow that morning, probably a great day for skiing as we left 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Been living in Munich since 85. Three occasions where chains were needed, twice on the Arlbergpass as it happens. The first time on a Ford Fiesta where we first had to find the car at Alpe Rauz and then proceeded to mount the chains on the rear before realising it was front drive Once on Julierpass when conditions were genuinely sketchy... the Swiss police were standing at the top of the pass and sending everyone, inc. 4WD, back down to Silvaplana to chain up... Fitzwilliams!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Most of you seem "luckier" than me. Have driven to/from the French alps for skiing holidays probably 30 odd times since winter 90/91, and had to use snow chains probably 10 of those times either on the way up or back down again.
First time was the Saturday before Christmas 1991/92 up to Val Diz. Took 6 hours from Chambery to ValD in a heavy snow storm. Resort was then snowed in for 3 days, and none of the transfer coaches made it from the airports - everyone was in school halls and army barracks along the valley for at least 2 nights, and most weren't very happy about it when they finally did get into resort. We parked indoors, but there were cars buried in snow in various places, and some collected interesting modifications from snow plough blades
Second time was driving over the Fluella to Livignio and onto Maddona Di Campiglio - early January 1995 I think.
I don't think we had to use them for the following 10-15 years, although we mostly went in late March/early April so it was a lot warmer.
More recently (past 10 years) we've been going to either ValT or Tignes for the two weeks before Christmas. I think we've had to use them on the way up 3 times, and on the way down 4 times. This is in a rear wheel drive car with summer tyres, so whilst going up hill can get bit twitchy, going down hill is worse and tends to concentrates the mind and clench the buttocks.
Last winter I bought a cheap pair of alloys off eBay, and a set of Winter tyres for them. Got up to Tignes with little problem, but I doubt we'd have made it without the chains if I'd still got the summer slicks on. Decided to fit the chains for the descent on the way home because it was snowing the night before and we didn't know how bad it was going to be and didn't want to faff about at silly o'clock fitting them. As it turned out we would probably have been Ok, and in any event we took them off in the petrol station by the dam (it's under cover and lit at night!)
As I see it, putting on snow chains is a good omen - it means there is fresh snow to eat.
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I've been caught out enough times to know you have to carry chains.
But also have the other kit you need,
I.E. something to kneel on,
a pair of old gloves,
a torch.
Its really good if you have some overalls you can put on to keep your clothes from getting covered in that salty mucky sleety slop. + the High Vis kit.
Also have all this stuff where you can get to it quickly.
Its no good if you have to pull all the luggage out of the car to find it.
Most Important! Practice getting them on and off on your drive, well before you set off.
Practice till your as quick as Lewis Hamilton's pit crew.
While your at it take at least 5 litres of strong very low temperature screen wash.
And take another 5 litres to get home.
What else?
Snow shovel, Kendall mint cake .... the list goes on.
When you drive to the Alps ... you are looking forward to an adventure let it start before you set off.
I remember a car in front at Dover having a broken rear hatch where they had slammed the hatch down on skis sticking out the back, I bet that was not a very pleasant drive to the Alps.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have used them only once I think since the big winters of the 1980s. In 2006 we had a blizzard in the Dales and I didn’t quite have enough traction to get up a steep hill out of Richmond. Chains provided that extra bit of grip.
once the drifts get deeper than about 6 inches and wider than about 10 feet, clearance becomes more of a issue with an ordinary car, than traction.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Used them on 1 in 10 trips - but only in February - never at Easter.
One time in Chatel had to put them on every time I wanted to get up into the apartment complex car park (steep slope) and then off again as soon as I went back out onto the main road (which was clear).
A right pain - ruined a pair of gloves that week.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DrLawn wrote: |
| ...While your at it take at least 5 litres of strong very low temperature screen wash. And take another 5 litres to get home. .... the list goes on. |
You can't just buy the stuff in the gas stations over there? Wow. I guess each to their own, but it's just a drive, not a trip to Mars 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@philwig, the typical stuff on sale in garages on the way to the Alps is just like the stuff in the UK, good to -5 if you use it neat and the wind chill is minimal. Near the mountains you can find the better stuff which is OK down to -15, and if you buy from Aldi or Lidl in the UK before you go you can get the -20 stuff in 5L bottles at half the price of 2L from a garage forecourt. On roads which are salted and gritted, you'll go through 1L in about 2 hours.
I'm with @DrLawn on this, I take it with me and bring it back again if I don't use it. When you run out, the next services is 20 miles away and your windscreen is covered in salt and grime, that can be a very uncomfortable journey and stopping to pour drinking water over it in the hope it doesn't freeze immediately isn't a great idea.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe it used to be like a trip to Mars when we first drove there in 1972...
We hadn't heard of winter screen wash then.
The windscreen washers froze on the old Beetle. The only way we could get the screen clear was to get a dose of spray across the screen as we crept past the lorries on the Autobahn.
We did supplement the washers with a Fairy Liquid Bottle by leaning out the window and squirting it at the pathetic little wipers. But that bottle froze overnight in Ulm.
The fun run to Damüls
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
A couple of times in the Berkshire alps and three or four times in the French Alps.
@Alastair, At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, four wheel drive may help you 'go' but it doesn't make any difference at all trying to 'stop' - Although Hill Descent Control can make a huge difference in some circumstances. I fully agree with your comment about not going up the mountains without chains on board - regardless of tyres (and 4wd) |
You've missed the critical point of winter tyres. I drove to Morzine in a blizzard and a crappy small FWD hire car with proper winter tyres and smiled smugly as I overtook Brits in big 4x4s struggling on the slightest incline.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I never understand the comments about struggling to get up little hills in big 4wds. I drive snowy roads all the time, and its not possible to buy winter tyres in NZ. Never have a problem in my Subie on M & S tyres, or my old landcruiser on mud tyres. Obviously use chains if its icy or lots of snow, but a lot of the time the 4wd just gets straight up through it. Often need to use chains to get back down, for stopping and getting round corners mainly, where 4wd doesnt make much difference.
Even my 16 year old daughter can get her little 4wd mazda 16km up a snowy dirt road without losing traction. I wonder if there's different snow, tyre formulas or traction control systems in Europe.
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@hang11 I never understand the comments about struggling to get up little hills in big 4wds. I drive snowy roads all the time, and its not possible to buy winter tyres in NZ. Never have a problem in my Subie on M & S tyres, or my old landcruiser on mud tyres.
In the UK at least, big 4wds typically come with huge (21+inch) alloys fitted with very low profile and very wide summer tyres - basically not much more than a rubber band. These are virtually useless on snow or ice. It doesn't take much more than a heavy frost to bring the M25 to a standstill with stranded Chelsea tractors. If they had mud or M&S tyres as standard things might be different, but they don't.
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@hang11, If you are driving on dirt roads covered with snow then I would have thought that you are getting grip from the dirt and M&S tyres are probably the right choice. In Europe it is snow on tarmac, our winter tyres are designed for that.
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Europe: No. FWD with winter tyres handled everything I needed. Usually have done 2 or 3 week long trips and a couple of weekends per season, with a couple of seasons where I spent 4-6 weeks in Austria and France
Australia/Victoria: No. Bought a bog-standard little Subaru Impreza because in snowy conditions local laws require all 2WDs to fit chains regardless of tyres while AWDs do not, and I didn't want to do that. When I expected that they might require chains fitted on the way to Hotham, I took the Omeo route where they weren't required. Not a problem on other trips to Buller and Perisher. Tyres were not M+S but had a 'snowish' tread.
USA/California: No. Similar to Australia - winter tires aren't recognised as a thing. AWDs are not required to fit chains at R2 chain requirements, and they appear to never use R3 and instead close the roads. Using Zipcar to get another Subaru (crosstrek or impreza) for weekend trips. Tires vary but are mostly M+S.
Perhaps because the area is so high and exposed, the biggest problem around Tahoe has been that they get proper storms where you can't see a thing. Roads are pretty wide and not steep in most cases. Visibility has a been a much bigger problem than grip. Especially on the 80.
Based on these experiences I can't imagine a scenario where a Subaru with winter tyres would have any problems going anywhere. It's a pity they're not very common in Europe for when I move back!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@driz, I got rid of a 2yo landcruiser and bought an Outback because I had to do a lot more highway driving, and I've been pleasantly surprised just how capable it is off road - not many situations where I've wanted the landcruiser back. Has decent ground clearance, and with a bit of careful driving it can tackle some pretty serious terrain, and is much better on highway. The 4wd system is pretty good. Only hard part is lack of a diesel motor for engine braking on the way down stuff. Have almost had the brakes on fire a couple of times  Had it 4 years, 175k, only spent money on brakes and tyres, and given it heaps of abuse. I'll be getting another one when the time comes.
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Like @hang11, Lots of times on NZ mountain roads on 2wd and 4wd. Also on back country tracks in thick or very slippery mud a few times. Like others have said it is a combination of tyres, vehicle type and the person at the wheel. Biggest variable has to be the driver.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @hang11, If you are driving on dirt roads covered with snow then I would have thought that you are getting grip from the dirt and M&S tyres are probably the right choice. In Europe it is snow on tarmac, our winter tyres are designed for that. |
If it warms up on a dirt covered road the water from the snow melting normally drains away into the ground. On tarmac it melts and them often refreezes overnight. Water/slush on ice is much worse than just dry snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I once had to going over the Woodhead Pass - safe to say there was an abundance of jockeys in very expensive, very German cars abandoned at the side of the road with owners looking bemused as to why they'd just gone broadside into a ditch while I scooted past in my trusty 1.2 Polo 
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You know it makes sense.
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25 trips, used them twice
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Had to put them on maybe 5-6 times. Hated it. Low slung car with fat, low profile tyres and the inevitable conditions when you need to put them on, does not equal a good experience.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a 4x4 passat with winter tyres. In 15 seasons, never.
Don’t carry them anymore.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Less than 5 times, as I remember, over the last 16 years in France, all of them to get out of the car park by the apartment. Probably about the same in the UK (North Wales) as I lived at the bottom of a steep narrow road that was a snow trap.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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When driving airport transfers and having a ubiquitous (and crap) Renault traffic, my record was 52 times in a season, 5 times in one day - the following season if I was being sent to Flaine or Avoriaz I would only accept if I got to use the VW Transporters which were all 4wd and never needed chains (although we carried them). Being based in Cham I was expected to be less lightly to be stuck at home hence the traffic.
On a personal driving side I have resorted to Chains + Snow tryes on a real 4x4 (Discovery 1 and Delica) only when making fresh tracks up unploughed roads with snow over the front bumper, or when trying to extract (very) stuck cars.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Said to the OH yesterday after we had 20cms+ that I 'd like to go down to the car park first thing in the morning and try to drive in the deep snow and see how deep the van would go etc if I got stuck I'd just wait for the snow to melt which it does do by mid afternoon etc though have to be sure that another snowfall was not going to happen  |
I suspect your van would work well -
5 or 6 years ago in Tignes, there had been a terrific snowfall on the last day - made for great skiing - and we were all a little concerned about the (early morning) trip down the hill.
I was the nominated driver and, as the snow got heavier in the evening and the overnight forecast was for 30cm, I badgered the lads to leave about 2 hours before we would in normal circumstances - a good idea as it turned out.
Zero dark 30........we could barely drag bags to the car park (which was luckily on the flat just off the road between Lac and Val Claret), it was almost knee high in places  even worse than I had anticipated.
The main road was a bit better as the big ploughs had removed some of the worst overnight.
We were in a brand new AWD Tiguan, hired on the Swiss side so good winter tyres etc and chains in the boot............but, having done chains several times in the past I reckoned that the conditions were so bad, it would have been almost impossible to put them on in less than an hour, and I was concerned they would close the road and we would miss the flight.
We dug the doors out, the roof, the boot, a track to get onto the road, and that was it - off we headed and to be fair to the car, there was only one occasion - when I drove over a huge slab of ice hidden under snow - when it even squiggled a little. It was, however, the quietest trip down the hill I have ever had despite me telling them that the car was actually handling really really well, engine braking was working a treat and because it was so early there was literally nothing else going down until we got to Ste Foy.
We did see several tour buses off the side of the road trying to get up though....
We heard later from a friend that about 30 mins after we left the police closed the road and nothing came or went for several hours.
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11 trips, always very early March and had to use them 3 times, twice going to Flaine on the high point before the drop down to the village and once in Megeve. The 2 out of 2 going to Flaine was one if the reasons we switched to other resorts, it's no fun after a long drive. The only reason we had to in Megeve was due to Dutch in a tired old Clio stuck in the middle of the road on a hill, if we had a clear run we would have been fine.
Always practice on the driveway the weekend before we leave.
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