More basic shock/horror

A snowHead

ajhainey, No - not one of yours!

Well - everyone seems to be pretty much with me in the belief that traversing and sideslipping are fundamental necessities that all skiers should be taught (pretty much asap) and continue to be important throughout your skiing career. I hve to confess to being pretty gobsmacked by the whole business. the odd one person perhaps (either missed that lesson or dien't bother with lessons 0r whatever), but 3 in a season is beyond belief. The two snowHead

s concerned may be along in a little while to explain, but as I said -0 pne has had a lot of wht you'd think would be top tuition and it was never spotted, corrected or dealt with.

BTW I've spent most of the day on edge control - actually I spend a lot of most days on it (+ my fiendish postioning exercises of course!) NehNeh

A snowHead

easiski i guess i'll jump in here and play devil's advocate. i'd like to argue a bit merely in the most generic sense.

why do you see traversing/sideslipping as being a "fundamental necessities"? do i see the ability to engage or disengage an edge as important? certainly.

i must admit i have never spent any time teaching a student to assume a position that enables them to traverse. do i work with students to lessen edge angles and slip/slide/skid a little more in bumps? yes.

as i sit here typing i'm thinking how tough it is to "traverse" on modern skis. tip the ski on edge and head across a slope and one is going to carve......go uphill.....make a circle. on a 170 cm ski with a 15 meter turn radius there isn't going to be a very long traverse. the skis will head uphill!

in so far as sideslipping/traversing involve tipping the skis on edge or disengaging the skis as well as balancing in the center of our platform i agree. as confessed, i have never said now student or now class let's learn to traverse. have i utilized sideslipping to enhance balance and to create simultaneous edging movements? yes.

i argue merely because i'm truely interested in your thoughts on this matter.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Rusty Guy, I'll reply later when I have time.

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Rusty Guy,

I agree you are just trying to be argumentive...not in hostile way, as such..but

Traversing........required when trying to maintain maximum height on the move.

If you don't teach them traversing in the sense that you know I mean, maybe your pupils should get out more because they will need it to explore .
And this pre-occupation with carving is probably wasted on them because they will not be carving most of the time...with the best intentions in the world..

Just use the edge to greater or lesser degrees, thats all you have to do IMV

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Rusty Guy,

I said earlier if you can't traverse in a basically straight line on what might be hard packed/icy snow you ain't going to enjoy skiing one of the best runs at the Gorm or the off piste/unpisted runs into it or alternatively you're going to have a long walk on the board walk and up to the tow. I'm sure there are lots of other places that involve a traverse to get to the top of the run or piste, I've done a few in the alps aswell.

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Indeed...

If you can't do this

you don't get to ski this

which would be a shame Laughing

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After all it is free

i will reiterate that in my eight years of teaching full time in the USA i have never observed an instructor say to a class or to an individual..........."now we are going to work on or perfect our traverse"

perhaps it's because all our terrain in colorado and utah is very flat Blush

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I find it impossible to see how one can learn to ski without traversing or sideslipping. I suppose if you always ski in your 'comfort zone', you might never need to position youself more favourably on the slope with a nifty yard or two slip downhill to avoid a rock or an unfriendly looking bump or whatever, but I certainly can't do it. Traversing seems absolutely unavoidable unless you just turn, turn, turn all the bloody time. I quite like to relax a bit and traverse across the slope to give my muscles a break, and that's quite apart from traversing to actually get where you want to go. What happens when the bar is across the other side of the piste and level with you? It doesn't bear thinking about.

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Its not like traversing is the hardest skill to learn Puzzled

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richmond,

Arno,

Picture paints a thousand words..... Laughing

Or as we say...stay high.....and drop in....!!!!!

You know it makes sense.

See, there are two separate things here:
1. Traverse
2. Side slipping

I remember learning to traverse - putting both skis (which were fairly straight) on edge, and going straight across, or slightly down the slope.
If you were to do that now, the same move, on a ski with a reasonable sidecut, the ski will go up the hill - that's because of it's shape (the exception being if you are so light or the ski so stiff that the ski does not flex under your weight, then you could do a straight traverse on just the tip and tail of the ski).
So, it is impossible to teach a traditional traverse on modern shaped equipment.

But, what you can teach is holding edges, and releasing them, so that someone can get across the slope while still having speed and direction control. Side slipping is part of that process, but the whole process is just about using both skis, and getting them to work together.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Wear The Fox Hat,

As I said " stay high and drop in..." or what do you want to do, keep those skis on a perfect edge...its a no-brainer

A snowHead

JT, true, but the traditional traverse was about keeping the skis on edge, which I think is why it's not a key element in teaching.

A snowHead

Wear The Fox Hat, JT, You have both raised the question for easiski to answer is traversing on carving ski a bit of both techniques, so like all good teaching methods you must know the basics of both methods to be able to combine them. Just my opinion of course rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

blytht, my point is that you CAN'T teach the old method on a shaped ski, but you can teach edge control, and with that, you can make what resembles a traverse, but is actually a series of very slight turns, which are mainly skidded.

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It's very discourteous of easiski to be out working or somesuch when this thread clearly needs her urgent attention... wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DavidS, totally!

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blytht,

I don't care.... you can spend all your time talking about it, I just say, do it.

It, being skiing. Anything else is navel gazing IMV

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I quite agree that the way in which carvers work suggests that they should turn uphill when you traverse, but this doesn't seem to be a practical problem. I think that it's a question of where your weight is front-to-back (from a recollection of what I do when traversing).

Old style 'straight' skis were not straight, of course, and I don't remember describing a graceful arc on those, either, even on a long traverse.

As for easiski, these people who live in ski resorts yet can find nothing better to do than go out skiing, eh?

After all it is free

DavidS,

Gotta admit, almost quite funny but a cheap shot when your contribution to this thread is, what.... zip..??

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Was only kidding JT, no offence meant - "almost quite funny" is what I aspire to though...

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DavidS,

Its me, I'm grouchy today...apologies.. Laughing

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You can't but help get grumpy when you talk about skiing technique, because as we all know its the practising that counts Laughing

Get on that slope and hey presto, it all comes together.

11 working days to EOSB................................... snowHead

You know it makes sense.

I'm sure I got taught to traverse at some time in my ski life, I find I do it a fair bit now, as Arno pointed out, to get to the good stuff, and as JT will agree it's a necessity in places like Gressoney, hence the reason boarders don't like it there Very Happy

I certainly have no thoughts about traversing with "carvers", if I start slowing down, I point them further downhill, end of problem Very Happy

and no navel gazing involved Wink

regards,

Greg

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

This is a fascinating read, I wasn't taking the piddle (well not completely) when I said learn to board since both these skills are innate requirements of the sport and whilst we may not be able sidestep up a hill while traversing, froghopping up gives us much better abs (or in my current case - more likely a hernia). But I'm slightly perturbed that since you're all calling it a basic skill . . . just how far do you have to refine it Shocked

It could be my boarding background, but sideslip edge control and using a varying edge angle to hold a true direction while tracking a traverse just seems natural on skis but 'cos of this thread, I'm a bit worried that I might be as cack at it as I've been portrayed rolling eyes

A snowHead

I skied at Christmas with friends who were at ski school (Red Devils in Kitzbuhel) on their 2nd week on snow. They could traverse from day one quite easily (& pretty well) but they needed to be taught how to side slip.

A snowHead

Now that I'm back behind the computer I can address the question raised by Rusty Guy,. Some seem to have confused the term traversing (to go across) with a certain style of traversing as taught in the back yonder days. The whole point about traversing is that you learn to go across the slope without necessarily losing height. If you learn to use your edges properly (which is the main point of teaching traverse these days) you can also choose to lose height by releasing your edges. Using the traverse is an easy way to hone these skills at all levels. However from the novice/beginner standpoint it's essential as they will need to traverse to get comfortable before their next turn. Case in point my frightened lady today (day 4), learning traversing and edge control day 2 on the nursery slopes, frightened yesterday by having to do it on a slanting slope in the village today skied the easy blue on the glacier (Puy Salie) with no problems at all. Nice little traverses and sp turns on fab snow.

Now, I use traversing to teach edge control, for both beginners and more experienced skiers (also using traverse for all the balancing exercises I do) - all these would be much too hard, and too many things to think about if tried during a turn. Sideslipping is an extension of traversing in that it's also about edge control, but as has already been mentioned will get you out of any trouble. If you can hold a straight line on a traverse on a gentle slope on carvers, then you can control your edges. I feel that learning edge control is really what learning skiing is all about. Without it, you're just dangerous! Shocked

there was a system called Direct Method which we had to demonstrate for our Grade 1s back in the day. Ali Ross was a great exponent. That was fine for his clients, but then terrain selection is all important if you teach continuous turning. He did it no probs, but lesser instructors (and I've seen videos) tried and found that when their clients got onto terrain that was too steep all hell broke loose because they couldn't traverse

Now Rusty Guy, it may be that your terrain is more condusive to continuous turning than ours, or it may be that American skiers are less likely to go off onto a slope that's too hard for them against your advice, but I would be shocked and horrified to hear that neither traversing nor sideslipping were taught by PSIA teachers. Actually I don't believe it!

When I get round to it at the EOSB I'll try to upload some photos for you to see why we traverse .... BTW I do it every day on the way to any beginner classes - we have a lovely traverse across to the middle of town, and if you can't hold your edge, you end up down at the bottom of the hill and have to walk! Shocked

You can look at the videos of the glacier from the PSB on my media zone. You may also spot some other photos of the resort .... Very Happy

Arno Fab fotos

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

What about the good old 'kick turn'. Does anyone get taught that now???
My Dad taught me that with mastery of traverse, sideslip and a kick turn you could get down anything.
20 years later, I reckon he was right Very Happy

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What's this nonsense about 'carvers' turning uphill if you try to edge and traverse. Puzzled

Well, they will if your going very fast and tip 'em right over ! But, you don't do that when traversing. If you are traversing across a steep slope and have no edge applied then your skis will drift down or even turn down the slope as well as going across. You therefore apply enough edge to maintain your altidude on the slope. Too much edge and they will start to try and climb uphill and you will stop, because going across a slope does not put enough speed on to be able to go uphill. If you a ARE going fast then you are not maintaining altitude properly, because speed is only picked up by allowing gravity to take you down the hill.

It's all about trying to find the balance between the edge hold and the sideways movement. Sideslipping is a similar skill but you are deliberately allowing the skis to loose altitude sideways. In a tight place all the movement will be sideways, with no horizontal progress at all.

However, lessons I'm not sure are needed, as I think most people will do all this fairly automatically, when faced with terrain that needs it.

It's the 'poo-poo this looks tricky' thought, that makes you look round see someone else sideslipping or traversing, and copy them scenario. That's how I learnt it. Very Happy

Hell, I'd still be standing on my first mountain if I hadn't sussed it! Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

i asked four full certs in our locker room whether they had spent any time in the last decade teaching a traverse. the answer was no. i guess one older pro explained it well. he said. we used to turn-traverse-turn. now we are essentially are turning all the time.

do we teach students to balance on the outside ski with an engaged edge? certainly.

you folks are certainly correct in saying we don't have any "off piste skiing here in colorado. it's all groomed rolling eyes

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I am the

that Easiski writes about. I have just returned from 5 days in L2A and 4 inspiring lessons with Charlotte. It's my first day back at work so do not have time to explain my experiences in full but basically....

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Traversing and side slipping featured in my first week of lessons. The only reason I can think of for not teaching traversing would be to stop that thing where the student fails to make a turn because they are scared of facing down the fall line and just traverses into the rough at the side of the piste! Shocked

Not that I know anything, having only skied ~8 weeks.

After all it is free

I am not a particularly accomplished skier, but there is one thing with which I have not had difficulty; traversing, traversing and side slipping. There are two things with which etc, ... Cardinal Fang, the comfy chair ... blah, blah, blah.

No doubt my technique in both could be improved but it seems to be servicable. I learned these things yonks ago in Europe on 'straight' skis), as did my old lady. My kids learnt them during the last 8 years, actually in year one or two, I think, in Canada on carvers. I'm sure that they are very good for learning about edge control (my Canadian instructor has used them both to get us to understand how to use edge control in turns), but they are invaluable in themselves.

brian

richmond, wasn't expecting that Laughing

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Rusty Guy, Then you must have knder slopes or more obedient pupils!!! Seriously, what happens to continuous turning students when they get to the steep bit of a blue run. They may not be good enough yet (probably only about day 3) to ski down it with turns - how do they get down? I want to know??? This sounds like direct method. How do you teach peeps how much edge is required without traverse experiments? How do you teach them balance exercises? (hopping, skiing on downhill, uphill, inside, outside ski and so on?) without traversing - surely you must do exercises to correct balance and achieve the "point d'equilibre? Not having skied in the States I'm astonished!!!!! And what if the restaurant is on the opposite side of a wide piste but not downhill (as already asked) - how do you get to it? With the point of balance beign so much more important on the carving ski than it was on the straights, what exercises do you do to help peeps achieve it?

Dave J, I only teach kick turns when asked to nowadays - useful but uncomfortable.

beeryletcher, contrary to what you think, most peeps don't do it automatically! most peeps turn their body up the hill, instantly losing their edge!!

Now, I pose this question: The PSIA seem to be out of sync with everyone else - why? Is it because of the nature of american skiing?

Oh ---- I'm going to have fun with WTFH Laughing

Bridgit Jones, Glad you got back safely - sorry you're back at work! Sad

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