 Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight:
Ski Ugly....................................................................etc etc etc
Best thing written on Snowheads !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeehaa baby 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I learnt to ski in Scotland, traversing was essential to get across the slopess to where the decent snow was, then sideslipping came into its own to get down the narrower parts without crashing into the slower people in front. Never occured to me that this was a skill which had to be learned, it was just something that had to be done to get down.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I learnt to ski in Scotland, traversing was essential to get across the slopess
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Exactly!! I learned in Scotland too and as a snowplougher used to have to traverse across West Wall at the end of the gunbarrel - used to be terrifying back then but you had to do it. Can't imagine how anyone can ski safely without being able to hold an edge on a steep traverse, unless maybe you stick to greens and blues all the time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm firmly in both camps - on the one hand I think traversing is integral to skiing the bits of mountain that you want to, on the other hand I never thought it had to be taught, I just did it (but if people can't do it, then yeah, teach them...)
Now that I think of it, I do remember Rob Sogard (who Rusty would know of) giving us a couple of tips on how to traverse. If we're to generalise from one instructor to the whole of PSIA, I guess he's the best sample (was at the time the coach of the PSIA Demo team).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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eEvans, No offence taken
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
I think you are right that the less nervous just get it...as they are the people willing to be dragged over all...and sometimes way above their heads. It is a skill/technique, whatever, that you decide has huge benefits. If you don't/can't traverse, I wonder what you ski.
Most people would reaslise that standing across the hill is the best edge set
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, I bow down in due reverence ..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, fair enough but veeeight's comment is a bit more useful than that.
Calling everything a 'skill' masks the potential to recombine (v8)skills for different (v8)manoeuvres/(v8)tactics. When a student faces the unfamiliar they should be able to recognise that they already have sufficient (v8)skills, and that they do not require hand-holding from the instructor through every new thing they encounter.
If we accept that it is important to distinguish these levels of skill composition, it becomes a matter of nomenclature.
We could call v8skills 'atomic skills' and v8tactics 'skill supersets including plans for execution' and v8manoeuvres 'skill supersets in feasible chronological order' but it just seems simpler to stick to the S/M/T terms.
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comprex, OOh heck; I haven't criticised anyone posting on this thread - let alone have the technical wherewithall (sp) to question the different elements of skiing. However , does the US really differentiate between S, M & T ? Being simple , I struggle with standing up and enjoying myself without sub-classes of 'skills' to be absorbed ....
Is this just cultural or a very real difference between technique learning ? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, the gentleman from eZone* has said it better than I could:
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One of the key elements to the quality of your performance is being able to make decisions and act upon them quickly. There is no point being the fittest player on the park if you cannot read the game. This raises the question of what is fitness? Are you fit for your purpose? ... snip... Each has to be fit for their specific purpose but one essential skill for success in all sports is the ability to assess the situation quickly and act accordingly. Many athletes in The Zone describe having an age to think about what to do next and a sense of time slowing down.
So in addition to training your 4s'(your sport will dictate the requirements), you also need to practice your ability to stop and think. Athletes refer to this as being in the moment. |
If the intent behind your method is to demonstrate that the thinking is easy as well as the skiing, I have no trouble with it. Easithinkski doesn't roll off the keyboard, I admit also.
* link for attribution is here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've got to say... talk about over-egg the pudding...!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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To use a driving analogy:
Gear Changing is a Skill
Steering is a Skill
Balancing the accelerator & clutch is a Skill
(incomplete but you get the idea)
Looking over your shoulder in the blind spot is a Tactical move
Indicating your change of directions intention is a Tactical move
Leaving a 2 second gap is a Tactical move
(incomplete but you get the idea)
Changing lanes to overtake is a Manoeuvre, using a blend of the skills above. Also utilising a Tactical move of looking over your shoulder.
Reverse sidways parking is a Manoeuvre, using a blend of skills and tactics.
Crossing (traversing?  ) a muddy track in order to get from the road to the farmhouse is a Manoeuvre, using skills such as *steering* (tactically around potholes), modulating the *accelerator & clutch* to keep things smooth, and tactically utilising the appropriate speed so as not to damage anything.
So to bring it back onto topic, I help refine skills, for example, such as Pivoting (Rotary movement in BASI speak), Edging and Pressure Control/Management.
Which when blended together, produces a steered turn on skis.
I'll go back to sleep now 
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drip
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drip
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my will to live lays in a spreading puddle on the floor...
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drip
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veeeight, "Gear Changing is a Skill
Steering is a Skill
Balancing the accelerator & clutch is a Skill "
And you don't consider traversing (which involves correct use of edges to ensure the required line) a skill???? It can be done skillfully or unskillfully - it can be omitted altogether??!! but I'm sorry - I consider it a skill which is a basic skill in skiing. If you can't traverse you can't get around the mountain, only dki up and down a lift ... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm with you easiski! If you are a nervous skiier (these days I fall into that catagory  ), then being able to traverse across something that you don't want to ski down onto something you do, is definately a core skill!
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Again, No. I don't consider a traverse a core or fundemental skill in the true definition of what I'm trying to say.
The traverse itself uses a fundemental or core skill, that is edging. You yourself said
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which involves correct use of edges to ensure the required line |
So I call Edging a core skill. The traverse itself is a tactical manoeuvre, which uses core skills and tactics.
Potato:Potato
Tomato:Tomato
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight, you are obviously a master of the English Language core skill ..........being pedantic! or is that a tactical manoeuvre? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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While what veeeight writes may sound complicated (or even pedantic), I think his/her approach actually makes tuition simpler. Basically, the intention is to focus on a very small number of fundamental skills (edging, skidding, twisting etc.) that can then be put together in various combinations (manoeuvres) according to the conditions you face. It works for me.
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I surrender!
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You know it makes sense.
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Sorry - was I supposed to attack veeeight too?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Is that what you call an attack? I thought it was just a difference of opinion!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DavidS, So if I call a spade a spade and use normal simple words when I'm teaching - that's confusing???
From my point of view we teach traversing for two main reasons - because that's a major safety outlet for skiers, and because working in traverse helps to teach edging, (if you weren't on the edge you'd be sideslipping). The skiers who don't edge and have no control (pivoting a flat ski and slipping miles down the mountain with each direction change) would be far less dangerous if they'd learned traversing early in their skiing life (first week IMO).
According to my dictionary a skill is "an ability gained by practise" or "a natural ability". That pretty much sums up traversing as it's been discussed here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hey - I didn't disagree with how you teach - just said that I liked veeeight's approach, found it worked for me and definitely didn't find it pedantic. Rather wish I hadn't bothered - but didn't want veeeight to follow rusty guy to the exit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DavidS, Rusty Guy chose not to answer any of the questions I asked following on from his posts ....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski,
Despite being one of the people that found traversing etc a fairly straightforward thing to pick up, I agree with you that it is essential, and needs to be taught to where and when necessary. This business about whether we call it a skill or tactic is irrelevant and seems to be just about certain people wishing to exert anal egos in some form of one upmanship (it's pedantic or maybe pannickety or some other word, who cares).
Choosing the right tactics is a skill, and using the right skills is a good tactic and tictacs give nice breath...it's all bogus waffle. The fact is that people need to know how to traverse and sideslip. Some it comes naturally to, as a progression or use of other techniques, and some need to be taught how.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thank you, DavidS, for your kind words
It's nice to have someone understand the concept being made, I suspect there are far more folk on here that also do, but don't want to engage in flogging this poor horse.
Just for enlightenment, the core skills that we on this side of the pond focus on in all ski assessment & development are:
1. Stance & Balance
2. Pivoting
3. Edging
4. Pressure Control
5. Timing & Co-ordination
The Australian system (APSI) varys slightly, they use skills 1-4 above as their teaching methodology.
In all the skiing assessment that we do - we relate all issues and problems back to one or more of the 5 core skills above.
This may most probably differ to the European teaching models, which as I've said before, is predominantly a movement based teaching system (ski like this - bend ze knees).
So: To use two skiing examples
Skier #1 is coming down the hill, upper body & shoulders rotating in the (skidded) turns. Instead of concentrating on fixing their shoulders, we look at what is causing the shoulder rotation (root cause). The most likely scenario is that the legs are not turning (pivoting) and the skier is reliant on the body hurling the skis around into the new turn. So we would focus on exercises and drills to develop their pivoting skills.
Skier #2 is trying to traverse across a slope, but is losing altitude. This will almost certainly be related to poor edging skills. So we would focus on exercises and drills to develop their edging skills, perhaps by teaching them how to traverse, but also perhaps also by some other suitable drills.
Once this edging skill is practised and refined, then the skier is able to use that particualr skill, maybe on it's own, but more likely blended with one of the others, to help them in all manner of other skiing situations. Steeps, Carving, Racing, Traversing, Turning, Stopping etc.
And as anyone who has had a session with me will know, this is all internal dialogue. What I present and discuss with my clients is simplicity itself.
And please, this isn't anything to do with one upmanship, or anal egos. It's also slightly worrying that the driving analogy given earlier didn't seem to register. Speed reading? Maybe this explains why many folk ski like they drive....... 
I really didn't want this to descend into a bun fight, but I'm happy for easiski to continue teaching her clients to traverse, whilst I concentrate on my clients edging skills (insert MAJOR smiley here).
Is this horse well and truly dead yet?
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| veeeight wrote: |
. . .
Just for enlightenment, the core skills that we on this side of the pond focus on in all ski assessment & development are:
1. Stance & Balance
2. Pivoting
3. Edging
4. Pressure Control
5. Timing & Co-ordination
. . .
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That all sounds very sensible, but I'm surprised that you say it is different to how things are done in Europe. All my ski instruction has been in Europe, and certainly in the last 10 years has been the same as your description of "core skills" adapted to my needs as a skier. In my last class, the instructor had us doing different drills to address weaknesses in our skiing (for me it was edging, for others it was stance or timing) which he had observed during a couple of day's skiing.
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All my ski instruction has been in Europe, and certainly in the last 10 years has been the same as your description of "core skills"
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I'm glad to hear you say that.
I'm pleased you've experienced a skills based assessment & development.
I was at risk of tarring all European based instructors with the same brush going by easiski's comments................
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
This may most probably differ to the European teaching models, which as I've said before, is predominantly a movement based teaching system (ski like this - bend ze knees).
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What have I missed? I was taught to ski in Europe and nobody ever told me to do that, spent a lot of time on pressure and stance etc.
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| Lorraine wrote: |
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This may most probably differ to the European teaching models, which as I've said before, is predominantly a movement based teaching system (ski like this - bend ze knees).
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What have I missed? I was taught to ski in Europe and nobody ever told me to do that, spent a lot of time on pressure and stance etc. |
sorry but that probably just means that is where they think you need to focus.... because I have been taught a LOT by austrians and i can tell you all of MY lessons have been focused on rotary(pivot if you're a CSIA... austrians say "what is pivot?") skills....
My weakest area is actually my pressure control.... but the austrians take one look at my edging skills and go "rotary lets work on rotary" .... they then look a little shocked when I manage to be able to provide it if required.... (need to improve the pressure control though REALLY need to work on that)
They are not alone - I took a lesson at The Canyons(Utah) and the instructor there accused me of"you have an addiction to those edges" and "edges for you are like crack" .... an aussie instructor that knows me and him had to explain that my skiing is very much affected by WHERE i ski(and learnt to ski) and that if he saw my home hill he would know why I am so determined to get from one set of edges to the other!
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FAQ
... I need a couple of days to understand that .
is 