 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| smolo wrote: |
| I saw it written someplace that if you are on a 45 degree slope, you can put your arm straight out and touch the snow. |
 Only if you can touch your toes without bending at the waist.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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smolo - the pole to pole one works better - unless you ski with 2 diff length poles....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| smolo wrote: |
| I saw it written someplace that if you are on a 45 degree slope, you can put your arm straight out and touch the snow. |
Mathematically that would work if your arm was the same length as your leg + torso.
Just doing a quick bit of measuring, my arm is roughly 75cm long, and my leg + torso up to my arm is roughly 150cm, that means for me to reach out and touch the slope while standing vertically, the slope would need to be 60 degrees.
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smolo, it's ok, I've got his address...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, sweet ... you can ask him if the straight arm method is better than the bendy pole method for measuring slope steepness 
My main point was that 45 degrees is well steep. Martin Bell is talking about doing jump-turns on this stuff, which in fairness is not necessary on a wide face, but to hear people talking about skiing 40-45 degree pisted black slopes is either embarrassing or funny or time to go home.
I have never skied a constant 40 degree pitch on a marked slope ... I doubt if one exists. Do they ?
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| T Bar wrote: |
Winterhighland,
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according to a table of gully and piste gradients posted yonks ago on Winterhighland the Fly Paper at Glencoe gets up to 45degrees!
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Unless someone has measured such a short section that it is the front face of a mogul I do not believe this. |
I think this figure may be true, but the run is, as far as I remember, only about 60yds long. Since the whole thing is at least 40º and they are probably talking about the bottom third...
I showed it to someone years ago and he said anyone who skied down it must be suicidal.
As to the general grading question: there are so many things which contribute to the subjective experience of a run, ignoring differences in conditions. Some runs do habitually ice-up while others seldom do, and some are regularly pisted while others are allowed to form moguls. Some go down in short terraces and others a regular gradient.
Average gradient by itself tells you very little about difficulty
Presumably the steepest section would be an average over perhaps 30 metres? But would a 15 metre section at 45 degrees count as the steepest section? Or would it have to last 50 metres? Usually gradient is constantly changing.
Certainly, as several people have said, most people overestimate steepness. The Good Ski Guide years ago, when they gave much more information about individual runs, usually said if a run was over 30º - and this was quite rare. Few resorts had anything as steep as that.
If you have to use % or º then % (vertical distance devided by horizontal distance x 100) has the advantage of sounding steeper (45º = 100%) but since few people actually know what it means it is fairly useless to convey anything precise.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 26-03-06 19:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Just doing a quick bit of measuring, my arm is roughly 75cm long, and my leg + torso up to my arm is roughly 150cm, that means for me to reach out and touch the slope while standing vertically, the slope would need to be 60 degrees. |
If you are standing sideways you should measure your arm from your mid-line, so it should be about 90cm (92 for me). However your main weight may be on your outside foot and I'm not sure how that would change things.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Here's a bit of the Flypaper:
40 sounds about right.
I did, out of interest, ski the Blowhole in Whistler earlier this season to see how steep it was. It's not too steep down the left, but traversing to the righthand-side I could quite easily touch the slope with an outstretched hand - I turned once, which convinced me I couldn't turn on it  before retreating
With regards to slope grading, I would go for the normal colour i.e blue, black etc, followed by the steepness, then by a picture describing the best bits of the run. For Blowhole I would grade it: black, 40 degrees(lefthand bit?) with a smiley face, as a fall is not likely to cause a serious injury.
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[quote="smolo"]
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| the steepest black in Austria is (at a rough guess) about 36 degrees. |
All that you say is/may be true. I merely point out that the Diretissima in Kitzbuhel is billed as 35 degrees (actually as 70%). It seems unlikely to me that Kitzbuhel has a run which is near as damn it the steepest in Austria; St Anton must be furious. The Diretissima is steep, but it's wide and a piece of cake in half decent conditions. Very icy and it's a bit of a bug, but there's usually a bit of snow to found on it somewhere.
All this goes to show that there's a great deal more to grading than pitch, and that ski resorts tell huge porkies.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sun 26-03-06 20:57; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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richmond, from memory, there's no pisted runs that are insanely steep in St Anton.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Kramer, glad to hear it since we're going there next year, but 35 degs isn't insanely steep, it's just steep (in decent snow etc etc).
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Poster: A snowHead
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If I look at a run before I start and my a**e starts twitching then I know it's steep and probably too difficult for me. Forget the grading the only colour that matters is brown!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kit Wong,
When I have skied the flypaper it has had a lot more snow than in your photo I dont know if tha t has lessened the angle but it certainly didnt feel anything like 40 degs.
From personal experience you can fall down Blowhole without injury 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So without being as extreme as PG's neo-Draconian ski dystopia, why not grade runs based on the average number of weeks you'd want to have skied before you're likely to find a run pleasurable (and maybe with a range to account for likely iciness, busy-ness, etc?)
I realise you run immediately into subjectivity of grading issues and the hoary old issue of self-grading but maybe it would work:
Green = 1-2 weeks
Blue = 3-6 weeks
Red = 6-14 weeks
Black = 10 - 20 weeks
Or something...
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Surely that is going to lead to even more problems - with folks feeling bacd because they 'should' be on 10 week runs (black) but aren't yet! WHy would weeks be better than colours? WOuldn't you end up colour coding anyway (unless you want to write the numbers ont he poles  )
Personally I think they are just missing a colour between green and blue to show true beginner progression runs from those blues that reall are a little demanding or just note nursery slopes differently. To my mind beginners are the ones that need the help so I would back something like
'green and white' (nursery slopes, like those at the bottom of LDA say).
Green - suitable for snowplough skiers even if you are not too confident - no 'suprises' or 'nasty moments'
Blue - confident snowplough and early parallel - mostly pretty easy but with some tougher sections
Purple - what are currently 'tough blues and easy reds' - narrow or steep in places
Red - demanding runs that need either a lot of nerve or some measure of technical skill
Black - expert runs
If you start trying to divide up the blacks you could keep going forever! aj xx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ajhainey wrote: |
Personally I think they are just missing a colour between green and blue to show true beginner progression runs from those blues that reall are a little demanding or just note nursery slopes differently. To my mind beginners are the ones that need the help so I would back something like |
We manage perfectly well here without greens at all, we only have blue, red and black. Blues are for beginners, anyone that needs some precisely nuanced sub-grading on blue runs actually can't ski and ought to be in a lesson where their instructor can help them find more suitable slopes until they can progress to this easiest of all levels.
It's really perfectly simple, if the skier's not up to this most basic standard then they have to be in lessons, this is the basic competence level for getting around the mountain.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 28-03-06 7:47; edited 1 time in total
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| ise wrote: |
| We manage perfectly well here without greens at all, we only have blue, red and black. |
It is the same in Les Arcs, which I've always found odd from a marketing point of view as other French resorts nearby all seem to use green to denominate their easiest pistes.
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ise, Isn't that a bit harsh? My albeit limited experience of Swiss Blues seems to range from 'Magic Carpet' type beginner areas to heavily moguled steep bits which would be Red in some resorts - I know we have seen folks here write recently that they have done the Mont Fort Black after 1 week ( cowdoo or stupid) BUT surely that is a little wide. After all it is only skiing dummies (like me and most ski tourists) who need any indication of difficulty surely?
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eEvans, I don't think so. The standard of blues is pretty consistent, it is the entry level to be able to get around the mountain. If someone won't take lessons to hit that standard, or can't or won't make the effort required to hit that standard then they ought to accept that skiing's not for them instead of looking for 10 grades of green run or buying blades.
Who says skiing's supposed to be "inclusive"? It's pretty obvious skiing's not improved in any way at all by being "inclusive". The barrier is, as it always has been, the cost of getting to the slopes and staying there, those lucky enough to get there ought to put some little effort in. We could do with rather less people who either fall into the "I do blacks after a weeks skiing" or 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ise, Well I only have done the 4 vallees. You have to confess that all beginner areas 5including magic carpet areas for debutants) are marked blue. I would draw the contrast with the 'Blue' Prarion ( the Siviez link from Tracouet in Nendaz) which you must have done? Heavily moguled , I don't think it can be pisted (????), icy because its South- Westerly facing. I refer to the top sections not the last 1km of track.
No argument about effort etc. - although I suspect that 'incusivity' would make an excellent be subject for another thread 
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ise, maybe you don't have greens cos there aren't any (although IRC, there aren't any on the swiss side of the PDS...). The ones in Morzine are mountain roads and need actiuve input to descend in slow snow (pushing, skating, small turbofans just behind the rear binding, etc.) it's a useful indicator of runs to avoid...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| ise, maybe you don't have greens cos there aren't any (although IRC, there aren't any on the swiss side of the PDS...). The ones in Morzine are mountain roads and need actiuve input to descend in slow snow (pushing, skating, small turbofans just behind the rear binding, etc.) it's a useful indicator of runs to avoid... |
The grades are not used, there are runs that would be green in France.
The description of greens as needing "actiuve input to descend in slow snow (pushing, skating, small turbofans just behind the rear binding, etc.) it's a useful indicator of runs to avoid" might be true in the the PdS but it's not elsewhere.
The Marvel green in Morillon is a good example, it's one of four ways down, the others being red, blue ( I think) and a direct line off-piste down the lift line. The best two descents are the direct and the green. Anyone that thought they were a bit above doing greens will have missed one of the areas best runs. But, it would be a blue here
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 28-03-06 10:55; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The green run on the glacier in L2A is a fantastic run, as is the Verte in VDI.
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The "Piste Verte" in Les Houches is a touch challenging too
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You know it makes sense.
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ise, Mean to say that maybe you didn't need them (rather than just they weren't there...). Not a topic I think about very often! Anyway as far as I can see from the map, all the "greens" in Morzine, Les Gets, Avoriaz and Linga (don't know S-Chatel or Chap d'abond well enough) are mountain roads with the exception of the Avoriaz plateau (beginners).
Not quite sure what this means, but around that neck of the woods certainly they are pleasant for a wintery ballade but somewhat lacking in gradient. That said, I know folks that actively like them.
Why is "Marvel" so good? I'm intrigued...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Back to original question; on our little forays, I'm often asked by so and so if I think they can ski wherever we are going...!!
Ski what..? The thing is to try and get enough experience to be able to cope with ice and crappy snow. If you aren't confidence in those situations you have a choice, avoid them and lean on the side of caution, or say f*** it, how hard can it be? Personally the last option isn't always the worst IMV. It depends what YOU want out of the whole thing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ise wrote: |
| ajhainey wrote: |
Personally I think they are just missing a colour between green and blue to show true beginner progression runs from those blues that reall are a little demanding or just note nursery slopes differently. To my mind beginners are the ones that need the help so I would back something like |
We manage perfectly well here without greens at all, we only have blue, red and black. Blues are for beginners, anyone that needs some precisely nuanced sub-grading on blue runs actually can't ski and ought to be in a lesson where their instructor can help them find more suitable slopes until they can progress to this easiest of all levels.
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I think that depends where you are and how confident you are. I have skied blues I don't think are suitable for beginners (snowplough and early parallel) and people have to go somewhere in the afternoons after their lessons! What about those who can ski harder runs but don't want to? LDA has a couple of blues I don't think would be great for 2 and 3 weeks skiers, especially nervous ones, and the right hand side of La Plagne has too. I think most resorts have the range of runs available I don't see why marking up some true 'easy' runs seperate from the general realm of 'improver' blues would be a bad thing?
aj xx
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ajhainey, I like the way some resorts, as well as having green, blue, etc, will mark on the piste map, and on the signs, which run is the easiest way down (although I have laughed in a few resorts where the easiest run off one hill is a very steep black...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think that the runs that are marked as green are necessarily the most suitable ones for timid skiers to learn on. Let's face it, most green runs are cat tracks that have been pressed into service to provide a conduit for learner skiers to get from one part of the mountain to another, most often back down to resort, and are there only to make the piste map look friendlier for a less experienced skier.
Given that these tracks tend to be narrow and can also be icy, get very cut up and bumpy, and are usually packed with petrified beginners, I actually think that they're not a good place for beginners. Also when you're learning you actually need a bit of a gradient to carry you through your turns, it takes a remarkeably good skier to be able to do good quality turns on a very flat run (as easiski showed me a couple of weeks ago).
Taking all these factors into account, even if a run is marked as a green run, unless you can ski with a degree of competence, I don't think that you should go anywhere unless you're taken there by an instructor.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Is skiing meant to be exclusive |
I don't think that skiing should be exclusive, but the extra burden (infrastructure, cost) on resorts in order to maintain a complicated grading system and appropriate security measures would not be practical in most cases.
Most places have absolute beginner slopes - often free as well. If people don't use them and graduate to the main domain before they are ready, and without having lessons, then it's hardly the resort's fault if they then find themselves in difficulty.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PG,
I am not sure that subdividing blue runs (officially moderate) into blue and green is particularly complex and expensive the French manage to do it. If it attracts a a potentially lucrative market of early retirees who can ski during the off peak season it should certainly benefit the resort.
I do not think people should ski the domain without lessons, but I know of no resort where ski school hours occupy the entire opening time. If people can identify an easy way down the mountain and a few routes they can take early in their skiing career it is likely to get them coming back for more and many resorts seem to need customers.
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If the reason that lessons aren't given for the whole day is because they are tiring, should people who are learning to ski be skiing outside those times if they're likely to be tired?
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T Bar, not sure I see the point - the likes of Les Arcs may not have greens - but it does have a number of free lifts serving very easy runs, plus a 'piste mauve', and beginners can and should stick to these until they can head out into the domain proper, IMO.
It would be nigh on impossible in many resorts to have green runs right back to resort level from up on the mountain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, is it physical tiredness, mental tiredness or both?
Sometimes "physical" tiredness is perceived through boredom or mental tiredness, so possibly if the lesson was made more interesting and relevant for the student, then they wouldn't be as tired.
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| Quote: |
ise,
We could do with rather less people who either fall into the "I do blacks after a weeks skiing" or 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence.
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I think that should be an "I" not a "We" beginning that sentence, as it certainly doesn't include me. I have respect for those that are still struggling to do a blue with any confidence after 3 weeks. If they are enjoying themselves and sticking at it then good for them. If they aren't doing any harm to themselves or others what's the problem?
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FAQ
