 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Folks,
Just got back from a week in Passo Tonale. On the last day we were happily scooting around some reds and easy blacks until we hit a piste that had been used for a race the day before. Wow! For every metre of traverse I was slipping 5 metres down the slope. Talking to an instructor later, he told me that the piste had been specially "prepared" for the race. Whatever this preparation entailed, for me it was like skiing on solid ice.
Any tips on how mere mortals deal with these sort of conditions?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Clive. Hugely effective for skiing ice is to spread your legs really really wide. This automatically sinks your centre of gravity between the two skis. Do linked parallel turns down the slope, with the skis about a metre apart, maintaining a calm (non-rotating) upper body.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Clive, make sure your skis have really good sharp edges, race prep on modern pistes often involves water being injected into the snow to make it much harder and thus faster for the racers, without good edges you will have real problems turning.
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Clive, without knowing your general ability, without any instructor training (me), here's my "lay" advice.
There are some who will disagree with me ( ;-0 ) but I'd put most or all of your weight on your "downhill" ski. Also, on hard pack, your "angulation" becomes more important - i.e. keeping your edges set hard and your weight well over your ski(s).
One exercise I was shown to help wth this is to (try and) maintain contact with the snow using your downhill pole. This keeps helps keep your stance "aggressive".
More basically - decently sharp edges on decent skis?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, skis about a metre apart? Shurely shome mishtake? 
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Clive, a couple of small tips:
Generally on icy pistes you will find that snow has been swept to the side of the piste. I always try to find a zipper line down the side where invariably the snow is more skiable than in the middle.
It's very rare for a piste to be completey ice. You almost always have icy patches interspersed with mounds of soft stuff. I usually try to head straight down the ice to the next soft patch, where I can slow down and prepare for the next dash.
Sharp edges are a must.
If you really do end up on blank ice then edge the downhill ski and as David Murdoch said try to get all of your weight onto that edge. Usually works. Sometimes doesn't 
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I did a week's ski school in Tignes in November in very icy conditions. We were told that the key to carving a good turn on ice was increased angulation, including dropping your knee in slightly to accentuate the angle that you get with your hips. We put this to the test by finding a section of blue glacier ice (which was diamond-hard  ) and repeatedly skiing on it until we could hold an edge. I was fortunate in that I had new skis with very good edges, so just about managed to acheive some grip, but other people with duller skis found this very difficult.
In summary, sharp edges and lots of bottle to be committed to acheiving high edge angles (and high speeds!).
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Clive, try the sucker on a snowboard
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One of the most useful things anyone has taught me is not to take too harder edge on such slopes. The danger is that you are a bit scared, and you end up putting so much effort into getting a hard edge, that you then end up 'railing it' across the piste on an edge at high speed.
I find it better to try and keep a constant steady speed up and allow the skies to slide on a moderate edge down the slope. You need good angulation (knee bending & leaning forwards) but you need to also ensure you are relaxed and your legs are soft. The reason you need to maintain a slightly softer edge, is that the slope often changes in the level of iciness, and one second your ski is sking on some thin snow on top of the slope, and the next it is on the harder stuff deeper down. I also find it easier when I maintain a constant and reasonable steady speed (rather than constantly making big braking turns) and take slightly fewer turns then you might otherwise be tempted too.
This article put's it across better then I probably can.
http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_ski_instruction/intstruction30.html
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My pet hate is the bottle neck pistes back to resort at the end of the day, which if it hasn't snowed for a while tend to be hardpacked and icy, with lots of out of control people taking uncontrollable lines. When faced with this I will generally nip off the side of the piste and ski whatever I find there, which to me is generally preferable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We ended up on the Downhill course at Lake Louise not long after a race, scary!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, cheers!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| We ended up on the Downhill course at Lake Louise not long after a race, scary!!! |
I did too and loved it. I do like a good hard piste once in a while 
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Poster: A snowHead
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stay off-piste and avoid it!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, skis about a metre apart? Shurely shome mishtake? |
The possible spread will be a factor of leg length - maybe 'double hip width' would be a better tag. The wider the skis go the more the lower ski will be edged and the more the centre of gravity is sunk and stabilised between the skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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on ice another way- to ski at a moderate speed is to use less edge - side slip from turn to turn standing tall- body facing downhill- less slippy this way and less likely to fall over- many ways to skin a cat....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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how to ski hard and icy pistes? There won't be any for ages after all this lovely snow and cold temperatures!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| We ended up on the Downhill course at Lake Louise not long after a race, scary!!! |
I took a wrong turn at whistler and ended up on the race course the day after the canadian championships had been run........ have to ski it to bottom now!
I was doing my standard emergency turns in that situation..... medium radius, SOFT feet,,, patient initiation.... KEEP MOVING DAMN IT turns..... if the ski slides try to start another turn.... etc....
Felt bad... and then some crazy fool accuses me of carving.... umm I think not... just trying to hold an edge.... very medium radius turns and very controlled and patient worked best for me....
TRY to keep the skis always turning and the edge angles always increasing or decreasing.... a "still" ski wants to slide(my canadian instructors words of wisdom.... he grew up at whistler skiing glacier in summer)... do not hammer the edge on....
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Wide stance always seems to help.
Once overheard an instructor say that edges of piste are likely to be easier to turn on and if you can't turn there make sure you head for some bushy trees!
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I was at Verbier last year, on the far western side, past Nendaz etc. There was one red run that had on a large expanse of ice on a fairly steep section. Now this was only my third week of skiing and I only ski for one week a year at the moment so I hire skis. I was on a Volkl P60 which was way too much ski for me and I really shouldn't have let the hire shop give them to me. Anyway, the edges weren't sharp enough, and it was as you are describing - turning so hard on the edges that you're almost lying on the slope and with alarmingly little bite from the skis. Anywho, I finish Uni this year so should be able to invest in some lessons next year, about time I think!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Best thing anyone said to me about ice was "You will slide, accept it". In other words, expect to move sideways as well as forwards, go with it and adjust your balance accordingly. Also bending the knees at the end of the turn (I guess that's the softness). Those two things between them, and suddenly ice doesn't hold anywhere near the terrors it used to which then starts a virtuous circle
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Oh & I forgot..... EXTEND.... seems dumb but you cannot sink unless you extend..... extending allows you to more easily be in constant motion versus static (I seem to have no trouble with the sink idea but extending is an issue I need to focus on to achieve)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, well said. In all the endless carving discussions the emphasis on extension seems to have been lost. If your in tricky conditions, extending fully is essential to releasing the edges cleanly.
I'm not a big fan of loading the downhill ski at the first sign of ice, IMHO this can often result in very heavy painfull falls. If you're confident on ice and have good technique and stance there's no problem but people who aren't confident and lack good technique tend not to be well centred and ski with skis too close together will end up in a position where if they lose that one ski they're over, a friend got a pinned shoulder broken arm from exactly this . Better advice is to keep a stable wide stance and pivot the turn with flatter skis and bring the edges in gradually and later in the turn. Its no crime to skid.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rich, If it's a WC piste (which is what we were talking about to start with) it'll be steep as well as icy - start to skid and you'll never stop till the flat! You can go with the slide - that's not the same as skidding a flat ski. Of course you will slide, that's fine. On normal pistes there will be a bit of snow or softer stuff further on, so get over to that and then control. However we were talking about bullet proof, water injected stuff - not the same thing at all. I'm sorry I really disagree with the idea that you should pivot a flat ski to skid on purpose on ice.
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easiski, I didn't mention a WC piste, is Passo Tonale a WC venue? Not that it actually makes any differenceI've been on a few of the WC pistes and for the most part they are not particularly steep, yes I know there are some notable exceptions. We are also not talking about pointing straight down them in race style.
Your statemnt that if you start to skid you'll never stop is frankly nonsense.
I stand by what I said, if you tell an inexperienced person to load the downhill ski they tend to lock into an edge as soon as possible and either accelerate uncontrolled around the turn or the edge breaks away. Better get them to skid in a controlled way than go to the bottom on their a*ses.
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You know it makes sense.
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rich, I think the important word you used there is "lock". I'm just as guilty, the moment I hit ice every muscle goes into spasm and the result is the same for everyone . . . juddering loss of control.
On a board it's usually terminal until you can master the technique of relaxing and sinking every muscle above the ankles yet keeping toe or heel pressure/control into the contact edge. I once watched a boarder carve a wind cleared Grand-Motte glacier run from the cable car down to the funicular without one side-slip. It was fluid . . . actually it was exquisite and completely p*ssed off the skiers that were watching 
When I got the chance to buy him a drink he explained that on ice everything happens below the knees and your body is just there to absorb the inertial forces and keep the edge pressure constant . . . sounds great and I'm still trying to translate that into practice. I don't know quite how this applies to skis but having watched far too much of the olympics, the slow-mo shows us just how stable a platform our upper bodies and just how absorbing our legs need to be to slide well on ice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rich, Well I don't agree - I never said anything about lock and you said "pivot a flat ski" which is not at all the same thing as a controlled skid. If you pivot a flat ski and your ski is flat it will slide until you edge it - ludicrous - sorry - come and tell that to the people who die on our Combe Valentin when it's icy. However, of course you know best.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, not being a boarder I don't know whether this applies or not...but it does to me on skis. Many years ago whne repping on old skinny skis I was asked how I kept such a hard edge in on ice. Naturally I lied having no idea what they were talking about. BUt thinking about it I did come to a half baked conclusion that the appearance of control is often all you need, perception being reality. How do you ski hard ice? Spoof it! Keep a good stance and turn as though you weren't on ice. I believe it's known as "skarving" to these twin tipped youngsters.
rich, the thread did actually start off talking about a race course, albeit not WC. Unless you really know your onions, if you do start to slide on a race prepped course and it's steep, you will slide until you reach something softer or... ...harder.
First time I've ever seen easiski's comments described as nonsense! Not setting her up on a pedestal or anything, but I think she'd know a shallot from a Spanish pink.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rich, just an observation that easiski is an experienced instructor living on a mountain with top paper qualifications and top personal recommendations, so to help me weigh your often strongly worded opinions against hers I'd be interested in your credentials...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rich,
If you think easiski's comments are "nonsense" then you have obviously never skied on a truly icy piste!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| rich, so to help me weigh your often strongly worded opinions against hers |
Often?.... check the thread, there's only two posts from me andonly one of those was a response to Easiski, who made a statement I disagreed with which it appears is a hangable offence as far as some individuals are concerned.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Rich,
Ditto - in 20 years I reckon I've skied pretty much every variation too.
I didn't mean to sound patronising, and perhaps I should have phrased it differently. What I meant to say is there is a vast difference between an icy piste on which it is possible to make controlled skidded turns, and one that it so rock solid that 90% of people attempting to get down skid, fall, and proceed to slide to the bottom.
I experienced one such piste at New Year in France - I watched every single kid from the local Ski Club attempt to turn and then fall, and I suspect they were on the whole competent skiers.
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rich, I'm saying nothing-others have said it for me.
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rich, sorry, miscommunication on my part, 'often strongly worded' refers to other posts you've made in other threads and is indeed out of context here 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, you obviously follow my posts with keen interest. Can't for the life of me work out which other posts you're talking about though I always thought of myself as Mr nice 
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ah, this thread is deteriorating into high-frequency-text-based-communication badland. Cue sphagetti western theme tune.
rich, I'm sure you are Mr Nice.
Idea! Come along to the PSB (or one of the mythical EOSBs) and you can carry on the discussion in person, on snow and with demonstrations. All of which must be good things!
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FAQ
I find it's easier to control a sudden slide if your weight is more-or-less over the downhill ski which probably means max angulation and edge as described above. The main thing is not to panic when the ski lets go - just let it slide until you regain control. The alternative is falling which isn't a good idea, I've found 
