 Ian.S
Ian.S
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OK, here's a conundrum. I hire a pair of skis in resort, enjoy them, so buy a pair. Then discover the new skis have a totally different feel - stiffer and harder to control, even after a service. What's going on here? This has happened to me three times in recent years. Do shops in resort give their rentals a relaxed tune to cater for the widest audience? Or do hire skis get so much of a hammering that they actually get softer?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Ian.S wrote: |
| OK, here's a conundrum. I hire a pair of skis in resort, enjoy them, so buy a pair. Then discover the new skis have a totally different feel - stiffer and harder to control, even after a service. What's going on here? |
I wouldn't have thought the difference would be so noticeable. I hired some Cham 87's for a few days and then bought some Cham 97's and they performed as expected. What skis did you hire and buy? You will often end up buying a newer and potentially modified version but it shouldn't be so different.
| Ian.S wrote: |
| This has happened to me three times in recent years. |
What you've hired skis three times that you've subsequently bought... and each time found a significant difference in the performance of the ski?
| Ian.S wrote: |
| Do shops in resort give their rentals a relaxed tune to cater for the widest audience? |
Not sure there is such a thing as a "relaxed tune". A service is basically doing two things sharpening the edges and waxing the base. I can't think how either would alter the stiffness/control of the ski.
| Ian.S wrote: |
| Or do hire skis get so much of a hammering that they actually get softer? |
Depends on the core composition of the ski - what ski(s) are we talking about?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't hire skis very often, but when I have, the edge angle is less then what I like (1,3) and the general sharpness not what it could be.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Many rentals skis are a lower/different spec ski than the consumer version. Less so when you get in to the flat mounted all mtn/above models but most definately for the beginner/intermediate market.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 29-03-19 17:34; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Many rentals skis are a lower/different spec ski than the consumer version. Less so when you get in to the flat mounted all mtn above models but most definately for the beginner/intermediate market.
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Really? Even for the same model of ski? I have to admit I'm surprised by that and wonder why it makes any sort of sense to do.
Edit: Although I have just been reading earlier posts saying that the rental version of skis come with thicker edges and bases so that they last longer.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| olderscot wrote: |
| Quote: |
Many rentals skis are a lower/different spec ski than the consumer version. Less so when you get in to the flat mounted all mtn above models but most definately for the beginner/intermediate market.
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Really? Even for the same model of ski? I have to admit I'm surprised by that and wonder why it makes any sort of sense to do.
Edit: Although I have just been reading earlier posts saying that the rental version of skis come with thicker edges and bases so that they last longer. |
Price and longevity
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Many rentals skis are a lower/different spec ski than the consumer version. Less so when you get in to the flat mounted all mtn above models but most definately for the beginner/intermediate market. |
Interesting... I just bought a pair of Black Crows Orb skis... I specifically bought them because I switched to them in Argentiere last year and truly enjoyed them for 5 days. They were great. Assuming that a ski like Black Crows doesn't make a different spec for rental since that's not their market (unlike the gobs and gobs of Rossignol rental skis I see everywhere)
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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Some interesting answers here. Re the "relaxed tune" I was wondering if they put less edge angle on to make them easier to turn, as Old Fartbag pointed out. My latest failure has been a pair of 174 Black Crows Camox which I really enjoyed at the end of last season in Les Houches for a day. But I'm really not getting on with the ones I bought. I don't believe this ski has changed significantly in the last couple of years. I turned up an interesting review of the womens (Birdie) version which more or less sums up my own experience of the mens/unisex ski: https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/snow-sports/all-mountain-skis-womens/black-crows-camox-birdie. A strange mix of soft tip and tails with a very stiff mid-body. A hard charger by all accounts, which I wasn't expecting from my demo. Another thought occurred to me - I bought online from one of the big Internet companies (Snowleader), and I wonder if the stack-em-high discount traders get seconds from the manufacturer?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Ian.S, did they have the same bindings? Bindings can make quite a difference in my experience.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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That's a good point. Can't remember what the rental bindings were but undoubtedly different to to the Marker 11.0 I have now. I had a similar experience with Volkl Mantras, but I had Marker Tour bindings on those which probably did change the flex for the worse.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interesting point on bindings. In looking at a picture of the skis I rented, they had Tyrolia bindings though I'm struggling to figure out which model. I can post them here. The ones I bought from the Black Crows are Tyrolia Aaatack 13
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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I suppose the moral of the story is: buy the rental skis. I just spent a wonderful couple of days on a pair of Stockli Stormriders but the hire shop wouldn't sell them to me. 
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That's probably the key right there.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Ian.S wrote: |
| Some interesting answers here. Re the "relaxed tune" I was wondering if they put less edge angle on to make them easier to turn, as Old Fartbag pointed out. My latest failure has been a pair of 174 Black Crows Camox which I really enjoyed at the end of last season in Les Houches for a day. But I'm really not getting on with the ones I bought. I don't believe this ski has changed significantly in the last couple of years. I turned up an interesting review of the womens (Birdie) version which more or less sums up my own experience of the mens/unisex ski: https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/snow-sports/all-mountain-skis-womens/black-crows-camox-birdie. A strange mix of soft tip and tails with a very stiff mid-body. A hard charger by all accounts, which I wasn't expecting from my demo. Another thought occurred to me - I bought online from one of the big Internet companies (Snowleader), and I wonder if the stack-em-high discount traders get seconds from the manufacturer? |
This year, when I asked the rental shop beside the hotel, if they would service my skis with a 3 deg side angle.....I was told no, that was only for racing!! I think they said that for your general recreational skier, they used an 89 deg side edge.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If you think about it from the business point of view:
1. Rental skis are going to be less coddled/more abused and need to see the service machine more often but, especially at the 'blue' end of the rental package prices, only have a slim margin for each hire. So you want them to be cheap to make/sell to the renters so people see your brand on the hill, you want them to have a lot of life in them, and as people tend to exaggerate their ability you probably want them to be 'softer' than they claim (better skiers will go back and complain, at which point the hire shop can give them 'proper' skis).
2. Now you COULD call your ski the "SkiCo Basic Rental Ski 3"...or you could call it the "SkiCo World Cup Race Ski No Honest Just Like They Use In the Olympics <small>a-like</small>". The first is honest. The second is more likely to result in someone buying a pair of your skis - and as I suggested in 1. you don't really want them buying the low-margin 'rental' ski, you want them buying the higher-margin 'proper' ski.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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I've had a few bad tunes from (French) ski shops. Some were un-skiable. It felt like they hadn't bothered with any angle at all on the base edge. I think spyderjon has a view on resort shop tuning.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| This year, when I asked the rental shop beside the hotel, if they would service my skis with a 3 deg side angle.....I was told no, that was only for racing!! I think they said that for your general recreational skier, they used an 89 deg side edge. |
"Just for racers", or "We can't be bothered to change the settings on the machine just for one pair of skis" I wonder...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| olderscot wrote: |
| Although I have just been reading earlier posts saying that the rental version of skis come with thicker edges and bases so that they last longer. |
Sorry but where are you reading that exactly, maybe I missed it...?
This whole idea of rental skis being different I find strange. Not saying it isn't true... just strange.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ian.S wrote: |
| Some interesting answers here. Re the "relaxed tune" I was wondering if they put less edge angle on to make them easier to turn, as Old Fartbag pointed out. |
#1 A lack edge angle will just lead to less grip at high speed or on icy pistes but afaik factory angles are on the "relaxed" side and unless you have them tuned differently I wouldn't expect them to behave differently. Difficult to turn doesn't necessarily equate with difficulty with edge grip.
| Ian.S wrote: |
| My latest failure has been a pair of 174 Black Crows Camox which I really enjoyed at the end of last season in Les Houches for a day. But I'm really not getting on with the ones I bought. I don't believe this ski has changed significantly in the last couple of years. I turned up an interesting review of the womens (Birdie) version which more or less sums up my own experience of the mens/unisex ski: https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/snow-sports/all-mountain-skis-womens/black-crows-camox-birdie. A strange mix of soft tip and tails with a very stiff mid-body. A hard charger by all accounts, which I wasn't expecting from my demo. |
Well, that is a strange review... no idea what they mean by a "wildly uneven base" or how that was fixed with a service. Sounds like they could have had a completely duff purchase. Reading the review of the Camox on Glisshop they say "can compliment any skier’ style and needs", "an icon of versatility", " fun and playful ", "delivers a reassuring edge grip", "agility at its best " - nothing which suggests you should be finding them hard work given you have used them before.
| Ian.S wrote: |
| Another thought occurred to me - I bought online from one of the big Internet companies (Snowleader), and I wonder if the stack-em-high discount traders get seconds from the manufacturer? |
I've used Glisshop and Ekosport several time with no such problems.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I know some Salomon rental models have extruded bases whereas the consumer model (same name and extremely similar graphics) has a sintered base.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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| Quote: |
| Reading the review of the Camox on Glisshop they say "can compliment any skier’ style and needs", "an icon of versatility", " fun and playful ", "delivers a reassuring edge grip", "agility at its best " - nothing which suggests you should be finding them hard work given you have used them before. |
My review would be: if you're 15st and/or ski at 200mph you will find it a very responsive ski. I'm about 10st wet through and like to savour my descents.
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| Layne wrote: |
...but afaik factory angles are on the "relaxed" side and unless you have them tuned differently I wouldn't expect them to behave differently. Difficult to turn doesn't necessarily equate with difficulty with edge grip.
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Different brands have different approaches. My Atomic and Scotts are given as 1,3...but Spyderjon would say that this isn't always the case in practice.
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| Mjit wrote: |
.....or "We can't be bothered to change the settings on the machine just for one pair of skis" I wonder... |
That was my take.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The majority of rental service machines put a straight 90 degree edge on with no base angle as this makes the edge last the longest (as a French ski tech once told me). Some do 89 side edge with 0 on the base. This is usually not choice, it's because the machine isn't capable of putting a base edge on. A good ski tech will maybe put .25 to .5 base on by hand afterwards for a paid for service but not on a bog standard rental. This 89-90 degree is a relaxed tune, not the 1,2 or 1,3 that the factory puts on. That's why they behave differently.
The latest (been around for about 3 years) laser-guided Wintersteiger machine will put any base and side edge you like on, in .25 degree increments. But you have to find a shop with one and tell the tech that's what you want or you'll still get the standard punter edge angles. This is the only machine I know of that will replicate factory settings - the only other way is by hand.
My local skiset in La Tania had one of the first laser Wintersteigers in the whole of the Savoie I believe, and it's brilliant.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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Doesn't a completely flat base give a very hooky and railed ski? I thought this was happened to me when I've had a bad tune. I should add that not all is doom and gloom. Sanglard in Chamonix always did a great job for me - and half price with an MBU season pass. Whether they finished by hand I don't know.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ian.S wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Reading the review of the Camox on Glisshop they say "can compliment any skier’ style and needs", "an icon of versatility", " fun and playful ", "delivers a reassuring edge grip", "agility at its best " - nothing which suggests you should be finding them hard work given you have used them before. |
My review would be: if you're 15st and/or ski at 200mph you will find it a very responsive ski. I'm about 10st wet through and like to savour my descents. |
There are 4 x 5 star reviews on glisshop, the first of which says "Really like to go fast and are stable at speed. Very forgiving, didn't crash once." and another "Really fun skis." So nothing is really matching up.
It is an advanced/expert ski - are you in that category?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| leggyblonde wrote: |
| I know some Salomon rental models have extruded bases whereas the consumer model (same name and extremely similar graphics) has a sintered base. |
What with the same model name?
Regardless sintered v extruded is more to do with cheapness of manufacturer, durability, how often you need to wax more than strictly how the ski performs as described by the OP. I thought... could be wrong
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@Raceplate, not calling you a liar but that all surprises me.
I DIY service my kit these days and generally the more I read about shop servicing the more I'm glad I do.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| The majority of rental service machines put a straight 90 degree edge on with no base angle as this makes the edge last the longest (as a French ski tech once told me). Some do 89 side edge with 0 on the base..... |
That's total bollux as a 0 degree base edge angle is nigh on unskiable. The vast majority of rental service machines put the skis across a belt first, which puts the base edge angle on, and then a stone which cuts the structure. If you don't cut a base edge angle first then the base edge will contact the circa €1000 stone and f**k it up really quickly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@spyderjon, in the Spring of 14-15 season I went to every single service centre in La Tania and 3 stores in Meribel, all of which I knew from when I did seasons there. I asked every single one if they could replicate the factory finish of 1,2 on my skis and every single one said no. They all said they had no control over the angle, it was fixed by the machine. The guy in Meribel Ski Service told me specifically that the machine always put a straight 90 degree angle on, the best he could do was to add about .5 degree by hand after it had been through the belt. It might be that something was lost in translation because I've since realised that most French ski techs only talk about the side edge rather than the base edge, so maybe he meant 1,1 to 1,1.5 in UK terms. However, the guy in skiset in LT told me the same (the angle is not adjustable) and his English is excellent. He also told me that he was buying a new machine over the summer that was computer and laser controlled and the new machine would do 1,2, 1,3 or anything in-between including different base angles.
I was quite literally his first customer at the start of the 15-16 season for the new machine and I've since had several skis serviced there. The difference in how they ski to previous shop services is night and day off the new machine where I am specifically requesting a 1,2 edge with a ceramic finish.
Unlike the OP, I had always previously thought that new skis skied their best straight out of the wrapper and were never the same again after the first shop service. Whether that was because the machine grind was flattening the base edge and the side edge or just one of them I can't say for sure but they were never the same. I guess logically it would be because the rental machine is putting a default 1,1 angle on if there must be a base edge, leaving 90 degree at the point of snow contact. Either way, the point of contact is not as sharp as the factory edge so that would be the "relaxed" tune that the OP is referring to.
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Poster: A snowHead
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To try and simplify things: the factory finish on most skis is 1,2 or 1,3 which produces 89 or 88 degrees at the point of snow contact. The finish left on by most rental machines produces 90 degrees at the point of snow contact so it's not as sharp. I guess some people would consider this a relaxed finish, I'd just call it blunt.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
....
This year, when I asked the rental shop beside the hotel, if they would service my skis with a 3 deg side angle.....I was told no, that was only for racing!! I think they said that for your general recreational skier, they used an 89 deg side edge. |
Depends on the town and shops. In St Anton, all the main street stores send their skis to a "factory" in St Jakob. At that factory, you get any angle you want, as long as it is 89/0.5.
I discovered this only this year when both my Wife and I got a crap tune - the skis were not unskiable, but they they did not feel as "precise" (for what of a better description) as before, maybe like a car with worn shocks. I went into the Jennewein mountain shop, where they have their own machine. Their default is 88/0.5, but they will do what you ask. Left the skis there over lunch and the difference afterwards was like chalk and cheese; they felt great.
So, the general lesson is: ask what bevels they will put on the skis and who/where will do it. Decide accordingly.
The specific lesson: when in St Anton, go to the Jennewein mountain shop at the Galzigbahn top station.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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olderscot wrote:
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Although I have just been reading earlier posts saying that the rental version of skis come with thicker edges and bases so that they last longer.
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Layne wrote:
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Sorry but where are you reading that exactly, maybe I missed it...?
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It was in this thread from a few years ago. https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=116073
I also find it a strange idea. On the one hand the rental market is a fantastic opportunity to convince renters how good your skis are so they might want to buy a pair, but on the other hand it appears they also want to give them a thicker base and edges so they last longer AND make them cheaper. I can't help wondering if this is something some brands have done (and maybe even then only on the really low skis) but others don't.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I always put a 3 degree side angle on all my skis, even powder skis. OK, in deep or soft snow it makes bug all difference, but get a pair of fat skis on an icy black and see what difference a sharp edge makes.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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Some very interesting ideas here but I'm not sure I'm any wiser about my specific problem. Simple solution for now: use my old GS skis as a default and rent something spiffier for "special occasions". Currently enjoying Stockli Stormrider 88.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Ian.S, if you are looking for a better way to find skis that you like? How about a ski test? There is normally one on the EoSB and Oktobertest both north and south.
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There are still a lot of skis on Ebay with standard model numbers followed by the letters "RTL" which I always assumed meant that they were specific rental models and that they would differ from the standard models on the negative side.
This is a quote from a Blizzard Brahma RTL currently on sale on Ebay which would seem to bear out the theory that rental versions are cheaper and softer.
"CE BRAHMA RTL does not have titanal plates, so it is less demanding, less powerful than these predecessors."
@Ian.S, maybe you had better look for ex-rental second-hand to get the same experience.
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@Ian.S, have you tried going into a shop in resort (midweek, when they're not busy), explaining that you're in the market for new skis but want to demo first, and then chatted about what they have? Normally, they'll have retail skis mounted up with demo bindings that you can hire then if you buy them, the shop deducts the hire cost from the price. That way, you try the full retail versions rather than rental models.
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Ian.S
Ian.S
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Another random thought: people seem to be skiing a lot faster these these days - I wonder if manufacturers are making their skis stiffer to compensate?
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
....
This year, when I asked the rental shop beside the hotel, if they would service my skis with a 3 deg side angle.....I was told no, that was only for racing!! I think they said that for your general recreational skier, they used an 89 deg side edge. |
Depends on the town and shops. In St Anton, all the main street stores send their skis to a "factory" in St Jakob. At that factory, you get any angle you want, as long as it is 89/0.5.
I discovered this only this year when both my Wife and I got a crap tune - the skis were not unskiable, but they they did not feel as "precise" (for what of a better description) as before, maybe like a car with worn shocks. I went into the Jennewein mountain shop, where they have their own machine. Their default is 88/0.5, but they will do what you ask. Left the skis there over lunch and the difference afterwards was like chalk and cheese; they felt great.
So, the general lesson is: ask what bevels they will put on the skis and who/where will do it. Decide accordingly.
The specific lesson: when in St Anton, go to the Jennewein mountain shop at the Galzigbahn top station. |
I gave my XDR 80 for service in their shop located at the bottom of the Nasserein gondola, next morning I received them looking and feeling as good as new.
Knowing that plus what you wrote, I now feel obliged to return once an year to St. Anton 
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FAQ
