 Poster: A snowHead
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Just heard that a British snowboarder has died in Soldeu after hitting a tree while attempting the Avet black run.
RIP
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I went down that run last week, it was mostly sheet ice having been water injected for the world cup. Going back up the lift we watched in horror as a boarder lost it and just missed a tree by inches. Many people were going over on the top steep section and sliding a long way before regaining control. There were no warnings at the top - okay it's a black run, but its condition was extremely atypical. I went over twice and was lucky my skis stayed on or I probably wouldn't be here typing this. Fine for racers but as a recreational slope it was extremely dangerous. A sad day. Condolences to all involved.
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Maybe that run should have been closed? Very sad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, that's what we thought last week. We attempted it in the late afternoon on a stupidly hot day with the whole slope in the sun since 9am and expected it to at least have softened a bit... no such luck. Nowhere else in Grandvalira was icy in the afternoons at the end of last week - possibly excepting the other world cup slope, the Aliga, which WAS closed. It caught a lot of people out.
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Very sad news indeed.
But surely no ski resort would close a black run because it's icy? Lots of skiers would be actively seeking out the challenge of an icy world cup run. A warning sign maybe at most and even that would be unlikely in most places.
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Did he have the cardiac arrest because he hit the tree or did he hit the tree because he had a cardiac arrest?
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@Gordyjh has a good point. But icy pistes and snowboards really don't mix. I wouldn't particularly like to be on a race prepped slope on skis, to be fair: but on a snowboard..? Yeuch!
Mind you, I watched most of the WC races last week (or 2); looked far from icy - more spring snow mounds.
Sad news any way.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Did he have the cardiac arrest because he hit the tree or did he hit the tree because he had a cardiac arrest? |
Most translated reports that one reads usually use cardiac arrest meaning dead when the rescue services arrive as far as I can tell. Don't know if it was the case here.
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My son entered the trees in Andorra 12 days ago. He was a very, very lucky young man. Torn hamstring, knocked out, neck trauma and a bust helmet!
He is ok, stiff neck, but the concussion rendered him useless for over a week.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 27-03-19 19:03; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
My son entered the trees in Andorra 12 days ago. He was a very, very lucky young man. Torn hamstring, knocked out, neck trauma and a bust helmet!
He is ok, stiff neck, but the concussion rendered him useless for over a week. |
Rather than the over 20 years that most parents complain about 
Re closing a slope because it is icy. WC injected slopes are not in the normal spectrum of icy. They are basically lethal to any recreational skier on a typical recreational tune. Reckless to leave such a slope open to the public at least without very strong warnings.
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Indeed, horrible news. I haven't heard anything about how the signage was on that day, but in the Pyrenees it's the norm to have "Experts only" signs out when conditions are more demanding than usual - although of course of one isn't highly familiar with the resort then it's likely that such signs get interpreted as "yeah it's just an everyday black run". It's also reasonably common to have a "hard snow" warning sign as well, but I think that probably depends on the resort.
Grandvalira normally takes things pretty seriously, so I'd be surprised if there were no warnings. But frankly pretty much all blank runs everywhere in the Pyrenees are hideous at the moment - it's barely snowed in more than a month and the sun tans are something to behold - and so it takes some nerve to have a go at them.... you have to really like sliding.
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You know it makes sense.
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I agree. I'm pretty sure around here they close slopes for much lighter reasons than that. Sounds like it should've been closed AND had warning signs (lack of visible reasons tends to make people think the reason is not a good one), then anyone who wanted to take their chances could duck the rope and think of a way to explain it to their insurance company...
Re: "experts only" signage. The problem with these is 1. the ability spectrum is such that many think they are experts when they really aren't. 2. This isn't helped by such signage being deployed e.g. on a black run in Cortina that was in excellent condition and no harder than the average red run (not the WC run, even). Until such signs are only placed where you really have to be a pro skier to get down in one piece, they will be routinely ignored.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Scarlet, Agreed
I've never skied in the Pyrenees but a lot of 'experts only' signs that I've seen in the alps have referred to mildly tricky black runs and are not much of a deterrent.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Re closing a slope because it is icy. WC injected slopes are not in the normal spectrum of icy. They are basically lethal to any recreational skier on a typical recreational tune. Reckless to leave such a slope open to the public at least without very strong warnings. |
This. 100% this. (My bold)
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 27-03-19 20:53; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, sorry, having skied Wengen and Garmisch just days after the downhill races with a few cm of fresh on top of sheet ice, I can confirm that although lethal they were very much open and with no warnings. They’re black runs and that should be warning enough. Might be different elsewhere, I don’t know.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Although it’s a valid argument that race prepared black pistes can be lethal to the recreational skier, it’s an exaggeration to say they are worse than conditions you could get at other times, say freeze thaw, rain on ice, icy moguls etc. You get the boiler plate in Scotland with no injection of anything. Sad though this event was skiing is not risk free and pistes are graded for a reason.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Bodeswell, I agree, having tried to dislocate my shoulder on the Hahnenkamm a few days after the race.
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@Bodeswell, I agree, however those sorts of conditions are relatively easy to predict. Prior to this tragic event, Grandvalira had had 7 days of sunshine and resort temperatures in double figures in the day and above freezing at night. The Avet piste is at relatively low altitude and at this time of year is in the sun all day long. Based purely on that prior knowledge you might expect it to be rather friendlier than a sheet of porcelain-smooth ice. Nothing else in resort was even remotely as evil last week; I know because I skied most of it. I accept what you say about risk but mitigating it includes being able to make informed decisions. I chose to ski Avet in the full knowledge that it had been injected and it still caught me out... that is a mistake I won't be making again.
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The Avet used to be a wonderful top to bottom mogul field, now it is always pisted flat, at best, it is now boring, at worst, we have some tragic consequences.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| Re: "experts only" signage. The problem with these is 1. the ability spectrum is such that many think they are experts when they really aren't. |
Because all black runs are described as 'expert' are they not?
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| James the Last wrote: |
| ... Because all black runs are described as 'expert' are they not? |
Not that it matters, but as you bring it up... From memory, that's how they're described in North America,
but I think someone here provided European definitions which were based on "difficulty of run", not "ability of skier".
None of it's prescriptive, hence it's irrelevant.
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@James the Last, They might well be, but as @philwig says, that doesn't really mean very much. The ability spectrum does not start at green run and end at black, that's only the beginning. (I can't comment on double black diamonds in NA, as I've never skied there, but I did learn from the recent thread that the difficulty range is much wider than covered by European blacks).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you hit a tree at anything over ~10mph on skis, you're toast.
Trees are just about the strongest living organisms on planet Earth.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Whitegold, hmm, good point on the toast but I doubt there are many skiers out there expecting to crash into one and knock it over.
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| Quote: |
If you hit a tree at anything over ~10mph on skis, you're toast.
Trees are just about the strongest living organisms on planet Earth.
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Nope you can survive hitting a tree at a lot more than 10mph. Try freefall from at least 5500m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Alkemade
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You know it makes sense.
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| moosepig wrote: |
| @Bodeswell, I agree, however those sorts of conditions are relatively easy to predict. Prior to this tragic event, Grandvalira had had 7 days of sunshine and resort temperatures in double figures in the day and above freezing at night. The Avet piste is at relatively low altitude and at this time of year is in the sun all day long. Based purely on that prior knowledge you might expect it to be rather friendlier than a sheet of porcelain-smooth ice. Nothing else in resort was even remotely as evil last week; I know because I skied most of it. I accept what you say about risk but mitigating it includes being able to make informed decisions. I chose to ski Avet in the full knowledge that it had been injected and it still caught me out... that is a mistake I won't be making again. |
I am with you. These days I do not ski icy blacks - done it in the past and don't wish to break old bones. That said, not only do I consider likely conditions on nearby reds, I also scan the slope if possible from the lifts - and if in doubt ask advice from a local or someone who has skied the run that day. But I am a cautious old fart. I agree with those who think that the run should have been closed or at least signed with the risk explained.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| moosepig wrote: |
| @Bodeswell, I agree, however those sorts of conditions are relatively easy to predict. Prior to this tragic event, Grandvalira had had 7 days of sunshine and resort temperatures in double figures in the day and above freezing at night. The Avet piste is at relatively low altitude and at this time of year is in the sun all day long. Based purely on that prior knowledge you might expect it to be rather friendlier than a sheet of porcelain-smooth ice. |
Not necessarily much more friendly though; it faces due north and is protected by trees, and although nighttime temperatures were above zero the orientation means that the snow stays cold and the underlying snow is enough to refreeze the surface overnight. The fact that a north-facing black gets a lot of sun is usually a negative rather than a positive in terms of friendliness, unless you catch it at exactly the right time of day.
None of which is to say that this particular piste shouldn't have been well signalled, of course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Did he have the cardiac arrest because he hit the tree or did he hit the tree because he had a cardiac arrest? |
Most translated reports that one reads usually use cardiac arrest meaning dead when the rescue services arrive as far as I can tell. Don't know if it was the case here. |
Exactly. The Graun probably ran the article in the Andorra Echo and Advertiser through Google Translate.
At the end of the day, there's never been a dead person with a beating heart.
Lazy journalism.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
At the end of the day, there's never been a dead person with a beating heart.
Lazy journalism. |
Very true except in the legal technical sense.
You can be declared dead if you're brain dead but with a beating heart, it's how they get some organs for transplant.
(And that wouldn't happen beside a piste)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| T Bar wrote: |
Very true except in the legal technical sense. |
In any event it is a tragedy for his family and friends. Speed, hard icy snow and obstacles have been an ongoing problem for ski resorts.
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This is very sad news. Avert is a piste I always have a lot of respect for, it’s a long, steep, usually icy piste and it’s north orientation means it gets the sun just long enough to soften everything before freezing it back to a sheet of ice. It does have one very prominent tree in the middle. It’s often been a source of amusement for us as we’ve had lunch in a hotel or restaurant overlooking Avet - it’s never long before someone falls and slides a long way.
Soldeu is often touted as a resort for beginners, but there are a couple of places where a bit of caution is necessary and Avet is one of them. You can ski it from the top, but the entrance is tricky to find and the drop in is steep. That is enough to put most beginners off and take the blue run instead. However, half way down the blue there is a fork and the blue carries straight on and Avet peels off to the right. At this point the slope is quite benign and although signposted ‘for experts’ I’ve seen a lot of less than capable skiers and snowboarders head down it, only to find that there’s a little lip and then it is relentlessly steep, with a single tree in the middle and no real run off at the bottom before it drops into the river. I’ve been told that once there were no fences at the bottom and more than one person had died falling on Avet and not being able to stop before the fall, but it’s been well fenced and padded in all the time I’ve been there, and the tree is padded too.
My suspicion is that a snowboarder who thinks he’s mastered it has decided to ski a World Cup run and found it steeper and slicker than expected. Soldeu gets a lot of novices who think they are better than they are, and this is the tragic result. I don’t think you can blame the resort, it’s always been very well managed when I’ve been there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think we have any reason to assume that the guy wasn't a good snowboarder. Anyone can have a slip-up. Unfortunately on that hard base a slip-up can and did have tragic consequences.
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Even pisted flat, I really like the Avet in the right conditions, it's width allowing it to be carved almost from top to bottom
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| @James the Last, They might well be, but as @philwig says, that doesn't really mean very much. |
My point exactly. If all blacks are 'expert', there is no point in putting up a sign that says 'experts only'. What would put people off? "Very dangerous and icy"? "Professional racers only"?
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| pandora wrote: |
Avert is a piste I always have a lot of respect for, it’s a long, steep, usually icy piste and it’s north orientation means it gets the sun just long enough to soften everything before freezing it back to a sheet of ice. It does have one very prominent tree in the middle. It’s often been a source of amusement for us as we’ve had lunch in a hotel or restaurant overlooking Avet - it’s never long before someone falls and slides a long way.
Soldeu is often touted as a resort for beginners, but there are a couple of places where a bit of caution is necessary and Avet is one of them. You can ski it from the top, but the entrance is tricky to find and the drop in is steep. That is enough to put most beginners off and take the blue run instead. However, half way down the blue there is a fork and the blue carries straight on and Avet peels off to the right. At this point the slope is quite benign and although signposted ‘for experts’ I’ve seen a lot of less than capable skiers and snowboarders head down it, only to find that there’s a little lip and then it is relentlessly steep, with a single tree in the middle and no real run off at the bottom before it drops into the river. . |
I haven't skied Soldeu for many years so checked whether Avet was the piste I thought it was - it was, the run back to the village you have all described. I remember being in my excellent ski school lesson there one year and our middling (getting about reasonably well on reds) intermediate group asked our lovely instructor if we could do the easier middle section of the black (Avet) one day. I seem to remember it being intersected by a red, I think, twice on the way down. The top part looked crazily steep to me, the bottom outside my skill set but the middle bit looked doable.
I believe it was my first black ever. Anyhow, our ski instructor somehow mistook us and she took us down the lower, last section to the bridge and Gondola station. We all laughed later but it was carnage; I made about two turns using the whole slope before going off the side, losing a ski in about 2 ft of fresh, taking about 5 mins to get it back on and about another 5 mins to figure out how to get turned around back into the slope without falling again  ; meanwhile a male skier had fallen nearly immediately and was sliding head first in a direct line for the aforementioned (cannot remember if padded but probably was) tree (I stopped my ski recovery efforts to watch this) only stopping just before it; whilst others took falls and generally took forever to get down v gingerly. I've never skied Avet again. I really must go back to Andorra as I enjoyed my hols there.
Having checked out images I see that there is a chairlift at the bottom before the bridge now, which there wasn't in my day - that must complicate things for out of control skiers having to try and ski around crowds of people - before you just took your speed from the mountain straight across the bridge to the gondola lift with v few people to avoid.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| If all blacks are 'expert', there is no point in putting up a sign that says 'experts only'. What would put people off? "Very dangerous and icy"? "Professional racers only"? |
"Hard snow" is the sign that's often used in the Spanish and Andorran Pyrenees. I don't know if that sign was out at the time of the accident though; different resorts have differing enthusiasm for such signage.
A black with a "hard snow" sign is pretty self-explanatory in terms of indicating difficulty, I think. Not to be taken lightly.
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FAQ
and it was only luck that saved me from potentially serious injury or worse. It's possible that people arriving this week had no idea that slope had been race-prepped and some kind of warning sign would be a sensible move imo. This condition of slope is way above the normal difficulty of a marked black run and the consequences of a mistake... 