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Car hire beware. Prices have dropped but insurance has rocketed.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
philwig wrote:
jafa wrote:
... surely that's illegal. How can one Company inform anyone else without breaking data protection laws? That's more sour grapes than anything.

Good point, that would make a fine GDPR action.
Not only would they be sharing personal data without consent or approval, but they're doing it out of spite because they lost (failed to oppose) an action against them for attempted fraud.
I think that may well be fun to chase down.

--
On scratches, it's interesting if you think about their business model.

They can't honestly pick on one driver who didn't pay their excess (me) to pay for all the scratches caused the people who did pay their excess.
They let the chips and scratches build up, my guess would be that they only fix them when "retiring" the car.

Perhaps in practice they never attempt to charge in that circumstance. The "excess insurance" (which likely isn't "insurance") covers that cost.
Has anyone ever been charged for one scratch amongst a host of existing ones?


I would be pretty sure that the T&Cs give them the right to share information about you. They've been sharing black list info for over 10 years.

Most of the cars I have been allocated have been new or almost new. Last season I had to put snow chains onto a small car that had black alloy wheels. One of the chains wasn't quite tight enough and it scratched the black wheel paint. A quick stop at Albertville for a black touch up stick and all the scratches were taken care of.

The big point is to thoroughly check the car and photograph any damage before leaving the car park. We recently had a nearly new Octavia that had been scraped on the rear quarter. I photographed the damage before we left as the paperwork said 'sans domage'. When we took the car back, I pointed out the damage and showed them the photos. They checked the date, time and GPS location of the photos and were then completely fine that we hadn't caused the damage. They explained that cars get damaged by the cleaning teams and on their way to and from the cleaning (which is behind the petrol station). On this occasion, the damage could have been over £1k as the door was creased, as well as wheel arch. The photo is more important than getting a rep to note the damage, as he may have been the one who caused it and may not actually add it to the file!

Where there have been small scratches on cars, the check in staff haven't been bothered to see if there are any new ones.

I once checked a car back in and the handover was all fine. The rep they reversed it out at speed and straight into the side of another of their cars. Both cars were extensively damaged. I double checked back in the terminal that my contract had been closed out before this happened.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
T & Cs may give them the right to share info with associated companies within a group. No way are you saying you allow them to maybe in certain cases maliciously send info to rival companies or even add your details onto an unknown data base only accessible to certain subscribers. Theyd get hung drawn and quartered if that came out. Similar to what was happening was it with Dockers some time ago. Why would anyone want to worry about a dispute with a rival anyway. Surely its an opportunity, or at least that's how I look at it in my line of work.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jafa wrote:
T & Cs may give them the right to share info with associated companies within a group. No way are you saying you allow them to maybe in certain cases maliciously send info to rival companies or even add your details onto an unknown data base only accessible to certain subscribers. Theyd get hung drawn and quartered if that came out. Similar to what was happening was it with Dockers some time ago. Why would anyone want to worry about a dispute with a rival anyway. Surely its an opportunity, or at least that's how I look at it in my line of work.



The black list was set up to stop people stealing rental cars with fake/stolen ID.

It then included people suspected of deliberately crashing cars (it's a thing, apparently) and includes a whole host of people now considered to be undesirable customers.
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@bar shaker, Back in the day when I hired a car weekly down at Heathrow I got to know the guys behind the desk. They had cars returned with the good tyres replaced by cheap ones, expensive components swapped for ones from a scrap yard and even complete engine swaps.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
[quote="bar shaker"]
jafa wrote:
T & Cs may give them the right to share info with associated companies within a group. No way are you saying you allow them to maybe in certain cases maliciously send info to rival companies or even add your details onto an unknown data base only accessible to certain subscribers. Theyd get hung drawn and quartered if that came out. Similar to what was happening was it with Dockers some time ago. Why would anyone want to worry about a dispute with a rival anyway. Surely its an opportunity, or at least that's how I look at it in my line of work.



The black list was set up to stop people stealing rental cars with fake/stolen ID.


How did that work then???????????????????? If they had fake/stolen IDs, did they not just use another different one next time?????????????????

And as far as parts being changed on cars, is that not why they charge so much to hire them out to cover all the things that could happen to the cars. I always thought that retail outlets for example knew that a percentage of stock got stolen, and the rest of us were paying for it indirectly in higher costs to what we legally pay for.

Just like Mr Ford said back in the day, I know only 10% of my advertising budget pays off, the problem is I don't know which 10%. Ok its easier today to find out, but car rental companies could easily keep track (if they don't do already) and know exactly where all their fleet of vehicles have been 24 hrs a day.
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jafa wrote:
T & Cs may give them the right to share info with associated companies within a group. No way are you saying you allow them to maybe in certain cases maliciously send info to rival companies or even add your details onto an unknown data base only accessible to certain subscribers. Theyd get hung drawn and quartered if that came out. Similar to what was happening was it with Dockers some time ago. Why would anyone want to worry about a dispute with a rival anyway. Surely its an opportunity, or at least that's how I look at it in my line of work.


There was a construction workers blacklist, the running costs of which were paid by construction companies, but that got exposed years ago.

Are you sure it's not possible to put that in T &Cs ? How do credit agencies get all that info off credit card companies etc. ? Similar thing surely ?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
With credit card companies, they need to check your credit reference before issuing the card, so they get your consent for what I expect they'd defend as a "legitimate use" of your personal data - viz, to check if they should give you the card.
Terms and Conditions can't be used to sign away your rights.

If a car hire company caught out in attempted fraud tried to share the fact that a customer was a hard target with other companies with a view to "punishment"... the customer would immediately discover the problem (they were unable to rent), would issue an SAR to find out why; and then would institute proceedings against them under GDPR because that's definitely not "legitimate", and probably there would be criminal issues too.

--
I was a witness to an incident recently and an insurance company sold my details to an "ambulance chaser",
who tried to persuade me to criminally defraud a second insurance company.
The first insurance company is claiming "legitimate use".... we'll see about that wink
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@philwig, OK, but let's say you have a credit card, you don't pay the min.at the end of the month, they then tell the credit reference agency you have been naughty ( in their view). You apply for a card with someone else, they won't give you one because your points are down because you have been naughty (allegedly) with your other card. That's OK ?

You hire a car, scrape it (allegedly) and refuse (or attempt to refuse) to pay for the damage. They tell the "car hire customers to avoid register" and next time when you go to another hire firm they say no you can't have one, you've got points on the "car hire customers to avoid register". That's not OK ?

This GDPR stuff sounds very messy Laughing
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There's an ICO example on credit reference agency legitimate use of personal data specifically here:
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/legitimate-interests/how-do-we-apply-legitimate-interests-in-practice/

They list the process for deciding legitimacy there too. My reading is that using it to "punish" people would be illegal under this, but I'm fairly sure it would break other laws too. If they believe you defrauded them as a car hire company, they should deal with that there and then, they can't legally start some sort of vendetta, if you see what I mean wink


The GDPR is actually really cool, in practice, for individuals.
Even for companies, it forces them to be better.
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@philwig, I admire you. You want to bring a GDPR private prosecution. snowHead

Matt1959 wrote:
@bar shaker, Back in the day when I hired a car weekly down at Heathrow I got to know the guys behind the desk. They had cars returned with the good tyres replaced by cheap ones, expensive components swapped for ones from a scrap yard and even complete engine swaps.


Well known. I think many hire cars have GPS trackers on them so they can see that they have spent several hours in a garage having the parts swapped. Indeed, as the GPS system knows where you are at all times, in order to tell you the current speed limit (even updated, outside Munich, in real for the variable speed limits on the gantries - super impressed) that's probably why all hire cars have GPS systems these days.
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I have been watching this thread as need to book car hire for April trip from Salzburg.

We booked a weeks car hire for half term but booked that back in the summer. I have been checking prices for last few months for April to find them significantly more expensive than we paid then.

I was looking earlier in the week and got prices decided we would pay for Budget but now those prices have jumped another £50 for the week for the same car.

So I am rather confused by the assertion that prices have come down?
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@NickyJ, I would suggest they have dropped over the years but if you book late you pay more...as I found to my cost. I was printing off paperwork on wednesday night for collection tomorrow and found I had only booked for 3 days instead of 7! cheapest places had no cars available and the week's hire I ended up with was about €100 more than I would have expected to pay when I thought I had booked about 4 months ago.
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@holidayloverxx, that’s interesting. We have only recently started hiring but certainly found Salzburg expensive compared to Oslo but maybe that was because we booked so far in advance? I booked that car hire with the flights through the BA website (355 days ahead of travel).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@NickyJ, supply and demand
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@NickyJ, Book with autoeurope.com or similar. If the prices go up, do nothing. If they go down after you've booked you can amend your booking and automatically get a refund to take you down to the new, lower price.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
In hindsight should have done... Will get hubby to do that. This is the one bit of the holiday he likes to book.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jafa wrote:
jafa wrote:
T & Cs may give them the right to share info with associated companies within a group. No way are you saying you allow them to maybe in certain cases maliciously send info to rival companies or even add your details onto an unknown data base only accessible to certain subscribers. Theyd get hung drawn and quartered if that came out. Similar to what was happening was it with Dockers some time ago. Why would anyone want to worry about a dispute with a rival anyway. Surely its an opportunity, or at least that's how I look at it in my line of work.



The black list was set up to stop people stealing rental cars with fake/stolen ID.


How did that work then???????????????????? If they had fake/stolen IDs, did they not just use another different one next time?????????????????

And as far as parts being changed on cars, is that not why they charge so much to hire them out to cover all the things that could happen to the cars. I always thought that retail outlets for example knew that a percentage of stock got stolen, and the rest of us were paying for it indirectly in higher costs to what we legally pay for.


The original idea was to stop someone going to Europcar, Hertz, Avis, Alamo, etc all within a few days and renting an expensive car off each of them... that would never get returned. By letting the group know that you had a car on rental, it would raise a query if you then tried to rent another. Once it was in existence, it was then used to permanently black flag renters that were suspected of abusing the cars, plus those doing what Matt1959 said about. All of this was from a mate who was a branch manager at Europcar.

I think car rental is dirt cheap, for what you get. As discussed above, there is no margin and theft of tyres etc definitely is not recovered in your €40-60 per day rental costs.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 1-03-19 15:27; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@bar shaker, About 25 years ago a colleague drove into the Alamo depot at Heathrow to return a car. A guy in a polo shirt flagged her down and said "Is this a corporate rental?" When she said yes he said "You just jump on the shuttle bus and I'll process the return, nothing else for you to do."

A week later Alamo called her to ask when she would be returning the car......Mr Polo Shirt had simply driven off with it.
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Matt1959 wrote:
@NickyJ, Book with autoeurope.com or similar. If the prices go up, do nothing. If they go down after you've booked you can amend your booking and automatically get a refund to take you down to the new, lower price.


I've done this many times with Europcar.

holidayloverxx I was really chuffed to book my car early for over Christmas and New Year for €300. Nearer the time I realised I was 12 hours out as the company I used didn't use a 24hr clock system. Rebooking was over €600 rolling eyes
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[quote="James the Last"... You want to bring a GDPR private prosecution. snowHead ..[/quote]
No.
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Arghhh... don’t mention car rental and insurance !!! Booked with Holiday Autos and wanted good cover so took their insurance. It covered a broken mirror and wee scratch of around 700 euros.. However despite much challenge they still refuse to pay the 60euros Drivalia charged us for their car being unavailable for 3 days to get repaired. They say paralysation/loss of use isn’t covered by the (AXA) excess insurance. That’s despite advertising that all damage costs/excess will be covered in full and their being nothing related to such within the documentation or exclusions.
They say it’s not covered because of their exclusion of ‘Any loss caused as a direct or indirect result of anything you are claiming for' which seems irrelevant and lacks any further clarification.
Seems scandalous to use an obscure statement to get out of paying - although the charge is a bit iffy in the first place !
It’s well worth thinking about because these costs could be considerable with more serious damage.
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I use Insurance4Carhire, annual policy is £40 less 25% on TopCashBack, cover includes
‘Damage’ to the Rental Vehicle which includes, but not limited to the windows, tyres and wheels, headlights, the undercarriage and the roof;
loss of use of the Rental Vehicle due to Damage; or
towing costs resulting from the Damage to the Rental Vehicle
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A few people on this thread have mentioned the Insurrance4carhire type policies. Most of the people mentioning them seem to have claimed, some several times, amounts that add up to a big multiple of the premiums, leaving me wondering how the insurance companies make any money out of this cover Puzzled . Is that just a snowheads profile thing Laughing or do these people not actually pay the car hire firms out Puzzled
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@skitow,
I've been using them for about 8 or 9 years now having had a couple of charges for dubious damage. Never had a claim since.
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@skitow, Never claimed over 6 or so years.
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@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@skitow,

I also claimed last year, value approximately 20 times the annual premium, they won't get their money back from me. I had to pay the hire car company and then claim from Insurance4Carhire, they paid me before I had to pay my credit card bill. Very Happy

Perhaps Snowheads are high risk Toofy Grin
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Timc, That's how it worked
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holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.
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Roguevfr wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.


Er... my point was that the premiums seemed low Puzzled On the basis of a, very rough, snowheads survey Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skitow wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.


Er... my point was that the premiums seemed low Puzzled On the basis of a, very rough, snowheads survey Laughing


I wasn't really replying to your point, more commenting on the apparently inevitable damage you unfortunately caused (by accident) .
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Roguevfr wrote:
skitow wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.


Er... my point was that the premiums seemed low Puzzled On the basis of a, very rough, snowheads survey Laughing


I wasn't really replying to your point, more commenting on the apparently inevitable damage you unfortunately caused (by accident) .


@Roguevfr Hold on you're mixing up who's done what here Shocked It was @holidayloverxx wot done the damage. I was just doing a survey Laughing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Roguevfr wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.


Premiums are dirt cheap for this insurance!
I try not to damage rental cars but equally I don't worry about a scratch or a windscreen chip...can happen to anyone anywhere. Equally I am happy to be held accountable for it...and claim on the insurance
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From my experience I avoid renting a car if possible, it's often a stressful and unpleasant experience.

I've had an argument with one company that tried to put existing damage on to me (fortunately I had taken pictures of all sides of the car which were date & time stamped before driving it).

From another they gave us a car with no fuel (the deal is they give it to you full you return it full) as it had arrived late from the previous customer they hadn't had time to fill it, they wrote on the contract not to worry about returning it full as it hadn't been supplied full. After returning the car a week or so later a £125 extra was taken from my credit card (£50 for fuel, £75 labour for them filling it up!). This was from EUROPCAR (name and shame), they had no contact number where you could complain, only a booking number, they did not answer emails or faxes. In the end I got the credit card company to refund me.

The industry has way too many sharks.
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Its getting to the stage, when picking up a car, leave the phone on recording, that way one has a record of what was said by the car hire co
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skitow wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
skitow wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
@skitow, i have certainly claimed more than i will ever pay in premiums ..today got a car with only 299km on the clock. Scratched the lip of the boot getting a bag out..be interesting to see if they charge. I have some tcut in the flat, i might polish it out if there is no more damage at the end if the week


Yet another example of why premiums are high . Quite depressing how many people in this thread seem to think it's acceptable to scrape, scratch, "trash windscreens" and otherwise damage rental cars and then bitch about being held accountable for it.


Er... my point was that the premiums seemed low Puzzled On the basis of a, very rough, snowheads survey Laughing


I wasn't really replying to your point, more commenting on the apparently inevitable damage you unfortunately caused (by accident) .


@Roguevfr Hold on you're mixing up who's done what here Shocked It was @holidayloverxx wot done the damage. I was just doing a survey Laughing


Sorry for misattribution.
Doesn't matter though, the next person will pay for it. Madeye-Smiley
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@Roguevfr, so how have the premiums been the same for years? If i have insurance and a legitimate claim then of course I am going to claim. If you don't like it then self insure
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holidayloverxx wrote:
@Roguevfr, so how have the premiums been the same for years? If i have insurance and a legitimate claim then of course I am going to claim. If you don't like it then self insure


In the same way that all insurance works, they're playing the law of averages.

I've got no beef at all with people insuring against damage, but the best way to avoid damage charges is to not damage the vehicle.

Undoubtedly there are cowboy operators out there, and sometimes high volume turnaround will cause problems, but for every person wrongly charged for damage or fuel there's a hundred clapping themselves on the back for "Getting away with it" for damage or an underfuel.
By the way , the excess insurance company does NOT pay the hire company for the damage.
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@Roguevfr, er...yes I know the insurance company does not pay the hire company for the damage...as as been said on this thread and i have made 2 succesful claims...and paid one back when i got a refund from the car hire company

You said that people claiming would put up premiums... and yes I largely agree...but insurance4carhire premiums have been the same for years. Same for everyone, so maybe that's it.
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holidayloverxx wrote:
@Roguevfr, er...yes I know the insurance company does not pay the hire company for the damage...as as been said on this thread and i have made 2 succesful claims...and paid one back when i got a refund from the car hire company

You said that people claiming would put up premiums... and yes I largely agree...but insurance4carhire premiums have been the same for years. Same for everyone, so maybe that's it.


I can't comment on their business model, but that's how every single other insurance company increases their costs, in the same way as your own motor/house/pet/health insurance cost goes up after a claim.
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