Consortium of Owners?

A snowHead

Currently looking at the possibility of getting together a 'consortium' to purchase/manage property in the Upper Tarentaise (La Plagne/Les Arcs/La Rosière/Val d'Isère/Tignes/Ste Foy etc). Individual members can purchase outright or part purchase according to means. There are numerous potential advantages from pooling resources in such a partnership. Won't go into any more details at the moment, but would be interested in your thoughts!

A snowHead

PG, I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about this. I've been thinking about buying a property somewhere, however all my reearch time seems to be taken up by skiing at the moment! Also I'm still a bit concerned that prices may implode if / when the UK market self destructs again...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I might be intrested

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The technical/financial side needs some careful thought, especially if 'co-property' purchases are considered. Apart from economies of scale in dealing with local contractors etc after a purchase is made, the advantage is having local Brits to manage things generally, source/photograph possible purchases, deal with estate agents or private sellers 'hands-on', keep an eye on properties, tenants, handle the notaries.... just acting as general dogsbodies to sort out problems if and when they arise.

I can't see prices suffering at the top end of the market although as discussed elsewhere, there's a real threat to the lower altitude resorts. If anything, there may well be upwards pressure on prices in the high altitude resorts, whatever happens to the UK market.

Being based in Bourg St Maurice, this gives access to a range of different styles of resorts all within 30 minutes or so. And having bought a number of properties in France over the years, the system is getting rather familiar!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Pls add me to your interested list. Ta.

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May be interested if Serre Che trip proves fruitless.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Welly Ski - now let me see......that's not the designer of Wellica Wear, by any chance is it? If so, welcome to snowheads - I'll get the 'photos sorted Exclamation

Although we're possibly looking at another region, PG, would also be interested in this.

After all it is free

Add me to the list!

I would also be interested, when you have more details please let me know.

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PG Update please. Are you still looking at this?

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I dont want to put a downer on this but archaic French property ownership laws are going to make the idea very difficult and our governments new rules about businesses owning foreign property (taxing property abroad at 10=25per cent) another big no=no.

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Chris, French property laws do not neccessarily make it difficult. One way to achieve this is to form an SCI, Syndicat Co-operative d'Investment where each investor becomes a partner and has a share dependent on the capital raised and the amount invested. It also make dealing with inheritance easier, there are some downsides, which mainly relate to how easily shares can be sold etc.
You need to have a good lawyer involved. Go to www.stephensmithfranceltd.com where you'll find lots of information, Stephen is a dual qualified lawyer who has published a number of books on buying and renting property in France. In principle this is a really good idea and it could (might) qualify for the French Government's iniative to encourage development in tourist areas.

Owning or having access to a property in France appeals greatly. We started looking into this a few months ago and would be interested in developments, please keep me informed. I assume this would be a bit like a ‘boat share’ where each owner has an equal share and use of it but would also have to contribute towards maintenance etc. Where we stayed in Plagne Soleil in Feb this year was an ideal chalet, 4 ensuite twin rooms and very close to pistes. We were told the value was about 250k (sterling I think but not too sure). Is this the sort of property you had in mind and if so is that figure realistic?

You know it makes sense.

PG,

I would be interested in it too. My mobile home in Chamonix is coming to an end this season as the owner is retiring and has sold the land. He is asking 1 million Euro for each chalet built on his plot.

I was surprised by how quiet Boug St. Maurice was when I went there in Feb/Mar. There must be 3 to 5 restaurants seeking buyers and property there could be affordable.

Going further into Tarentaise may be too quiet. Boug St. Maurice has a couple reasonable size supermarkets and facilities appear good. Like I mentioned earlier it is strategically an ideal place for skiing.

45 miles to civilisation of city life Albertville
Right at the middle of Tarentaise - 20 miles inward to Val D'lsere and 30 miles outward to Valmorel.
Every resort in Tarentaise can be covered in less than 45 min car journey.
The total length of piste is in excess of 1600km, with 9 resorts each with more than 175km piste.
2 hour drive from Chamonix or Portes Du Soleil, 2.5 hours from Geneva and probably 1.5 hours to Annecy. Between 2 to 3 hours also get us into L'Aples D'Heuz and Deux Alpes via Chambery and Grenoble.
In summer the Petit St. Bernard pass (La Rosiere/La Thulie route) will be open and is gateway into Italy. The summer can be enjoyed too spending time in Annecy lake or mountains. I have taken a motor bike to Chamonix a few times and the best route is to do Grand and Petit St. Bernard passes in a France/Switzerland/Italy/France loop.

Skiing in the capacity of a local resident is a price worth paying. Get a large and sound property and form a syndicate and the rest will fall into place. We need someone permanent (or semi-permanent) there. Dividing up the time slots among ourselves, sell any excess and empty slots and run it like a co-op.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Colin Vince, Bit difficult to comment without some more detail, but that does seem rather low to me. Equal shareholdings wouldn't be compulsory. The SCI system mentioned by David@traxvax is something I have set up in France before, in fact a SCI owns my home in Bourg St Maurice. The article at the link suggested is a fair summary of the system and the implications in terms of tax, and particularly inheritance matters.

Buying French property as an investment

Michael B, A chalet-style property on the slopes, at altitude would be great. But at what cost - and demand has been high, with constant upward pressure on prices for the really choice properties, they are so few and far between.

The first hurdle in a project like this is to agree on certain common elements. Do we target the very best, ie a large chalet right up as high as possible, or is something less ambitious but more viable, perhaps a chalet still, but lower. Perhaps a number of apartments in a resort complex. Or how about the 'deluxe', 1950 Canadian Intrawest development at Arc 1950, or one of the slightly pricy MGM projects? And which resort? Les Arcs, La Plagne, Val, Tignes... or perhaps a smaller one like La Rosière or Sainte Foy? A very large property on the valley floor with easy access to the funicular to Les Arcs and a short 30-45 min drive to virtually anywhere between Tignes and the 3 Valleys?

The next question is how many people are serious about this, and to what extent would they consider investing?

I can get some idea of cost and availability in the various resorts, and I'll do so even without much of an idea about who and how many and how much. But it would help to know what people's idea of the 'ideal' situation would be.

And bear in mind that it is a seller's market still, it is very, very difficult to find the perfect chalet on the slopes these days. Many properties are bought and sold by word of mouth - don't know how estate agencies here are coping these days....

A snowHead

Is it wise to go for a high altitude property at a resort? Don't people want the whole Tarentaise by living right at the middle and hit any one resort in 1/2 hour to 45 minutes?

The logical format should be landing a nearby airport, pick up a hired car and be this French home in 2 to 3 hours. Dropped my brother off at Genrva airport at 6:30am in Feb and was in Les Arc around 9pm.

A snowHead

Let me throw a few figures to attach discussions.

Say we have a skiing season of 4 months, Mid Dec to Mid Mar, or just 16 weeks. Each partner of the consortium wants at least one week off in a 4-bedroom property. We will have 16*4=64 bookings, assuming each can bring a partner occuping one room for one week. If we get 20 to 30 people and each pay £10,000 or thereabout for the property then everyone can have at least two weeks of skiing in a year. Say £100-£200 each year for maintenance and upkeep the place should be a lovely place to be.

Summer season is just a bonus or we could get retired people interested for the summer occupation.

If there is someone always lives there during at least the full skiing season to oversee maintenance work and ensure security then it will be a viable arrangement. The rest is down to a set of rules for booking the time slots, selling or transferring one's share and organisation of a maintenance scheme.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

PG This was your idea. I am just after an update on what you are thinking. I think that you have a big advantage in that you live in the area and so are aware of any current bargains/situations. A joint ownership of one property I think will not work as everyone will want the same weeks. This is timeshare by another name. But bulk purchasing power is another idea and one that may be of interest to a few, myself included.
Maybe you could just give a little more detail to your original idea as it seemed a bit of a catch all.
I personally don't want to make any serious money from a property, I just want a couple of weeks free skiing, courtesy of others. Laughing

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saikee, Thanks for getting the ball rolling... you've pretty much summed up why we moved to Bourg Saint Maurice in the first place.

Michael B, Just a few points.

It would be easier to manage a larger property, cheaper per sq.m. to purchase in the first place. Much harder to find the ideal property however - there is very little in the places everyone wants to live or own a second home, such as BSM itself. Still it can be done - this is the 4 bed we bought last summer, albeit at probably 5% over the market price at the time - probably worth £300-325K. Just 5 mins walk from the centre, sunny side of the valley.... so such properties do come onto the market now and again, if rarely..

another photo

"Bargains" are not a word you use in the property market in the current climate. Or rather, with every apparent bargain will come the inevitable problems .... remoteness, aspect, condition, etc...

The pros cited by Saikee are persuasive. BSM at least does have a lively summer atmosphere unlike most of the resorts. One of the pressures on accommodation prices in the valley (not just the Brits!) has been the locals who live and work higher up wanting a foothold down in the valley as well.

So I would say that something along the lines of Saikee's property but larger. And realistically, it would probably have to be in a local village/hamlet rather than BSM itself. Unless you are prepared to wait for the right opportunity, and it could be a while.

On the 'catchall' side, there's no reason why alternatives such as resort apartments should not be looked at in tandem with other projects. But it really does depend on who, how much, and what people's preferences are. My ideal doesn't really count - I'm already here.

So that's my idea, but I am open to suggestions. And as I said, I'll post anything interesting to the forum in the meantime.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Knowing the area I'd agree with PG, there is a lot of pressure on BSM as the French military expended their presence there and took a lot of properities out of the rental market. There are villages nearby Seez and Villard-Dessus are close to Bourg and there has been some development in Seez. I wouldn't look at developments like Arc 1950 because the costs there are out of sync with the local market, although I'm pleased to benefit from the consequent rise in value throughout the valley. I also wouldn't go to St Foy, too quiet and at the moment I believe the developments there have outpaced the infrastructure. To find a property in the valley you have to be prepared to search. I have only seen one for sale sign in our local community, La rosiere de Montvalezan in over 3 years. There is one superb old property that looks as if it's been abandoned, the old Bureau des Douane in Villard-Dessus, that is crying out for renovation. A project for someone like Masque I believe. There is also a hotel, the Belverdere that is supposedly for sale, it's an old Belle Epoque building about halfway between BSM & La Rosiere 1850. I was told the price a couple of years ago which I found hard to believe but again it neeeds a huge amount of work and money. Villaroger is also a nice little place but I'm not sure how often properties there become available. The area that appears to have the greatest number of places available at any time is La Plagne and Aime. If anyone wants to contact me for any further details email on info@tracksvacations.com I'd be pleased to register any snowheads with the local agents but as PG as pointed out they're looking for sellers not buyers at the moment.

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PG,

Althoght this is your baby I guess that there could be a lot of unknowns which could make any decision difficult.

My suggestion is you or a couple serious about the project to set up a devoted web site to hammer out a framework/agreement so that everybody knows exactly what he is in for. They can join in the discussions, update the plan, develop the scheme and ultimately execute the plan together with real money and commitment.

The developed framework/agreement (how big the property, how many member,how to run it etc) can be a common approach that would suit you and still have the most support of the majority. With a devoted web site all information can be kept and the rules/finance/obligation/offer can progressively evolve to suit the majority. I am thinking of using the MSN Group which is completely free. If you need help I can set one up in a couple of hours for you.

I would suggest that you take the leading role and hopefully more will join in to form a working committee.

As long as you can weed out the people going for a fast buck there should be enough bona fide skiers for combining the resources together to realise this attractive idea.

I have been running my Chamonix mobine home (a static caravan) with another family for six years. As long as the rules are clear and everyone cares about the property there is no reason why it can be a nice holiday home for people who love skiing.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Would a residence be a good suggestion. You could all use it , and rent out the unused properties

After all it is free

With regard to renovating an old property, I bought an old place in Provence ten years back, and although we did some of the work ourselves (we were living there permanently) the purchase costs of labour/materials resulted in the final bill to us being well over twice the original purchase price. Not a road I want to go down again - it was virtually a full time job for a couple of years, although quite fun.... but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone much over 35!

I appreciate the comment on the Arc 1950 development, although the fact that its properties are being snapped up means it is hard to define just what "above market rate" means. There are no like properties in the area with which to compare the Intrawest project, so it's not necessarily helpful to make a comparison based mainly on a cost per sq.m. basis.

Building land? At a premium, very rare, but it shouldn't be ruled out as a possibility.

Thanks Saikee, good idea to set up a site, I've still got a sizeable chunk of my gigabyte of disk space available via my US server, so I could use that. I shall think about your other suggestions.

PG,

Spent 1/2 hour to set up this

http://groups.msn.com/YNOTTarentaise/_whatsnew.msnw

as a demo. If you don't like it I can delete it. No harm done. Should you find it useful I pass the administrator/Manager role to you. You probably need a few Assist Managers to helpyou to consolidate the information together.

With a devoted web you can put in your vision of how you want it to be. Rest of us can join in and let the idea evolve.

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I've got spare hosting space you can have FOC - anything to get if off that cyber-abortion that's MSN! Evil or Very Mad

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Helen Beaumont, Anything would be worth considering, but the chances of a large property of this type coming onto the market are slight. As long as renting out unused properties was seen as a bonus and not a reason for joing the project in the first place it wouldn't be out of the question, but it's not the sort of investment that brings a rapid return. In BSM the winter season for 3rd party rentals might be 16 weeks or so if it's properly promoted, and rental income is probably less than 70% than you would earn from the slopeside equivalent. Any summer income is a bonus. Coproperty/maintenance etc charges can be on the high side especially if it's an older property. You need a 'syndic' - a kind of owner's management committee, setting up the rules/regs according to each investor's shares in the project, but if it's a really large place it would probably need a professional and accredited syndic agent to be run efficiently.

It's probably obvious, but the thing to remember about a cooperative purchase, whatever the size, is that individual members aren't buying the individual apartments/rooms themselves, but rather shares in the building itself as a whole. Hence the need for the 'syndic', laying down rules on what colour shutters can be painted, how much to set aside for the next years repairs, etc..... everything in black and white to avoid 'misunderstandings'!

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I did think about that after I'd posted.

Helen Beaumont, be interested to hear how you get on in your search in Serre Che. Are you confining yourselves to one area, or casting the net wider?

I had a look at a 20 year old chalet on the edge of Chantemerle (St Chaffrey side) which had 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and a self contained 2 bedroom apartment. The plot had more than the required 500m2 to build another smallish chalet on and clear access. With the updating the place needed (very tired/dark inside, but sound outside) at 616€ it seemed on the pricey side.

PG, you seem to have a very indepth knowledge of property matters, so I wonder if you also have any understanding of the financial side? I understand the cost involved and the nature of the Compromis (?) and immobilier/notaire charges etc, but was more interested in the actual financing of a purchase.

You know it makes sense.

Mark, your best bet is to go to a mortgage broker who specialises in French Mortgages. It's not difficult to raise money in France, I toured all the banks in BSM with a proposal/business plan and everyone of them said they would lend me the amount I required. Most French mortgages are shorter term than the UK, 15 years usually and they will not lend more than 85% of the total cost excluding legal fees and taxes. You would also have to take out an insurance that guarantees the full cost of the mortgage. Abbey National and Barclays both have operations in France, I found the Abbey to be very helpful, especially if you are an Abbey customer in the UK. Rates are lower than the UK and you can opt for a fixed rate which costs you slightly more. I'd recommend talking to someone like Stephen Smith (www.stephensmithfranceltd.com)at an early stage, if you want to email me on info@tracksvacations.com I can give you more information.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Mark Hunter, I would recommend caution with respect to investing in property where a guaranteed return is required. I'm certainly not saying that this applies to you or anyone else here, but lots of apparently sensible, down-to-earth folk lose their sense of proportion and judgement when it comes to the "dream property in France". I've met quite a few people in Provence suffering from getawayfromitall syndrome, and who have come a major cropper!

All I'm saying - and this is for anyone thinking about the project in this thread or any other - is that it's not always realistic to borrow to fulfil this dream - costs are always higher than estimated, the apparent benefits never as great as expected or hoped for.

Otherwise, david@traxvax's comments are factually correct.

A snowHead

Sorry for being thick but do people still want to borrow money or have a mortgage after having formed a consortium.

A snowHead

PG, thanks. We're looking to move out to France in the short to medium term, and don't expect to have to rely totally on guaranteed returns from property lets to finance the lifestyle change, but that will form part of the arrangement.

David@traxvax, will contact you direct. Thanks.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

saikee, I don't think it really matters to the consortium how each member has raised his money. What does happen if a member gets into difficulty and has to sell his share, is that the cooperative regulations would include a requirement to give first option to the other members to buy said share at market price.

The ideal situation however would be where the consortium is made up mainly of people investing 'spare cash', that is unlikely to be needed in the short- or even the medium-term.

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Mark Hunter, No problem. Likewise, if you need any specific info, don't hesite to get in touch direct....

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks for the update PG. It's fairly obvious that there are quite a few bits and pieces to sort before anything can really get going.

Personally I have been considering buying a 2 bed apartment in Belle Plagne or Plagne Bellecote. These 2 were on my list because of a. The summer skiing. b. The high altitude and therefore more snowsure. c. With the telecabin running in summer up to the glacier there would be a better chance of a summer let to walkers/mountainbikers/snowheads.

All these assumptions may be totally inaccurate but it is all I have to work with which is why I am interested in your idea.

I realise that good/cheap apartments and hens teeth go together rather too well but with you being in the region I assume that you are better placed to jump on to any property that may appear.

There did seem to be SOME property available in Belle P and Bellecote when I was there in Jan, but I never took the idea further.

If I was putting the sort of ££ in to buy a 2 bed apartment as I said above letting it to cover most of the costs would be a requirement but if I was only putting in £10-15K. That would not be necessary.

I have the added problem of it not being realistic for me to drive to any property, unless I hire from the airport, so good access to resorts/slopes are a must.

Any comments from PG, David et al appreciated.

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Michael B, On that last point - ref. car... it might not be unrealistic to include the cost of a cheap second-hand 4WD or something in the costings, in the name of the consortium.... Pretty much every weekend through the season it could be driven to the airport by those on their way home for the next lot to arrive and pick up...

As for Aime itself down in the valley, it's certainly cheaper, with more property available. All the same it hasn't got the advantage of the funicular with its free car park and 8 minute ride to Arc 1600.

I'll get some prices from the agents in La Plagne along with Les Arcs, for comparison purposes.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I registered with Alpe Agence but, frankly, I think they only wanted sellers as I had to send about 4 e-mails before I even got a response and that was only to say "shove off".
Look forward to whatever you can come up with from the agents. Thanks for your efforts on all of our behalves.

After all it is free

Did have a look at the Imobiliers/agency when I was in Boug St. Maurice out of curiosity. It isn't a market full of activities but strangely there were a large number of restaurants wanting to sell.

Seems to me everybody has his/her idea which has its pros and cons, attractions and problems etc. I throw in a few pennies worth of thought as well.

The first major decision is the size of the property. PG hinted the number of bedrooms should be more than 4 and I agree totally. Let’s say 5 minimum and more the better. This leads us to at least two WCs, two showers, a reasonable size kitchen and lounge, without much thinking two garages too ( for storage). I think we would be talking 0.5 million upward Euro property. I have no idea about the price of properties in Tarentaise but it would surprise me if one could pick one up with the above spec with less than 0.5 milliom Euros.

The second decision is the size of the consortium. Say £10k per share then a total of 35 will be needed on exchange rate of £0.7=1 Euro. The actual number of people can be smaller because a family can come in with more than one share. What’s wrong of buying it for the children and have more flexibility with time and size of the party? The location of the property can be flexible as long as it is within close reach by the main roads. To clear the snow for access by ourselves every time it snows is no good.

Third decision is how to sort out the change of ownership for the shares. Every interested party should have a plan on how to cash back the investment. If the scheme runs well it should be easy for the rest of the consortium to find a buyer should anyone want to give up his/her share. The property can be valued regularly so that a realistic price can be proposed. As the scheme is for the common good of the consortium then an outgoing stakeholder should behave accordingly, by observing a set of agreed and equitable rules. As long as the capital outlay isn’t large and the investor’s primary objective is for skiing then the scheme should work. That is why I put forward £10k per share. This is the sort of money one loses every 3 years whenever one changes the car.

Good method of sharing the facilities has to be developed. Some peak time periods like Christmas, New year, mid term breaks etc may warrant a special arrangement, possibly by a rota system or bidding with additional contribution to maintenance fund. The rest can be handled by booking on first come first served system. Members of the consortium can always negotiate with each other to reach a compromise privately. The make-up of the consortium is also important. Like me with grown up children I wouldn’t go skiing in a mid term break (French one especially) even if you point a gun at my head.

There are common decisions which can be implemented progressively, like fittings, TV, telephone, fridge, washing machine or down to the colour of the curtains. All of us would pay top money to go into a stranger’s chalet to accept anything there (grumble if needed) we should be happier if we have a bit to say on the surrounding. There must to top lawyers, scientists, bricklayers, beauty queens, computer experts… among us who are willing to contribute to the running of this property. As long as the agreed rules are published, say permanently in a web site, and a few guys willing to moderate whenever there is a disagreement then there is hope for a happy time for everyone.

With a central booking system and a door key for every member wouldn’t you like to nip down Tarentaise in summer with friends to spend a few days canoeing in Annecy or walk around the mountains of French/Swiss/Italian Alpes? Hey what’s wrong of spending a day trip to Geneva, Turin, Milan or Lyon? Don’t think many of us have thought through the possibilities yet.

For those wanting a good return on the investment then he/she should reduce the size of the consortium. Personally people waiting for the same UK property broom to happen in France should put their money elsewhere. To me the single biggest problem of a holiday home is how to keep/maintain it. If there are skiing instructors among the consortium who could keep an eye on everything (during season) and look after it as though it is their house then we are half way there. The rest is just to pick a soundly built house, arrange easy-to maintain décor and respect each other.

Thus I believe a devoted web site can help the discussions. We could write down our vision, agree rules, develop solutions to deal with conceivable situations and propose the colour of the curtains before anybody has to put money on the table.

I’ve been keeping a close watch on this and will be talking to PG when I visit in April. It is my consideration to move to the area. I have demonstrable skills in buildings design and maintenance and if this moves forward I’d like to throw those into the equation.
(However, after a nasty experience with a pressurized toilet system, I draw the line at having anything to do with them. If I can get some spare time I’ll give you the details)

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Not sure if my message or enthusiasm has upset anybody.

Being a qualified civil engineer with a Ph D I can comment on anything to do with the building fabric, water supply, drainage and to a lesser extend heating and electrical installations. Previous experience mainly on industrial sector. The most prestigious building I came across was to evaluate structurally a 5000 sq.m. palace.

Although professionally not involved directly with domestic buildings I did all the pumping, piping, drainage, wall/floor coverings and decorations myself for my 300 sq.m. house with 5 bedrooms, two kitchens and 3 fully tiled toilets/bathrooms. Hence I can claim to be handy with DIY (did even strip and fix car engines when I was younger and stupid).

Professionally most of my 35 years practice in engineering has to survive the challenge of the international experts. As a consequence I also develop a bad habit of speaking freely, hopefully there isn't much hot air in it.

Help!!

Consortium of Owners?

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