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360 Cameras

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Following on from the 'Which GoPro camera' topic my eyes have been opened to the possibilities and advancements made with 360 cameras. I've got an old GoPro Hero 4, which is great but I've found myself using it less and less over the last year, and just end up getting my iphone out to take the odd video and photo. However, the added stabilsation in the new cameras, plus all the extra features and functionality of the new 360 cameras have whetted my appetite. I've seen a few videos with the Insta 360 One X and been impressed (love the invisible selfie stick), but just wondered what the thoughts were of anyone who had a 360 camera (or seen them in action)?

Are they worth getting, or am I getting carried away with a gimmick? Which cameras are better than the others? Any advantages or disadvantages?


'Which GoPro?' thread below...

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=142006
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https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3341253&highlight=rylo#3341253
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks @KenX, really interesting read. My initial thought, which is one that gets mentioned in that thread, is that it suits snowboarding really well but skiing less so. Be interesting to see how skiiers get round that problem to get some equally smooth footage.
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some detailed reviews

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/02/gopro-fusion-360-in-depth-review.html

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/05/garmin-virb-360-action-cam-review.html
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've been using the Ricoh Theta S for a few years now. I realise that's out of date, but there are some great deals on ebay.
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Take a look at the insta360 one x, I used one at new year and it was excellent. The main benefit is the software for editing is so easy to use especially on an iphone or ipad (not too great on android).

The whole principle is 'shoot first point later'.

The stabilisation is amazing.

I haven't got a link to any of the footage but if you search neillp1972 on instagram you will find a couple of videos I put up. bearing in mind I am a complete novice when it comes to stuff like this it is really easy to use/edit.

I have since sold my GoPro hero 5 black.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cheers all, some great links and feedback.

@Neillp, yes the Insta360 One X was the one I was particularly looking at. Great footage on your Instagram account, couple of lovely examples where if there’s a crash the 360 camera is guaranteed to get it!

I notice that the camera went flying into the snow on one occasion, did you have the waterproof case on?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Handy Turnip, No I didn't have a case on, there was an issue with the supply (I think there still is).

I bought one from Amazon and bought the 3 year accidental damage insurance with it for £44, which is actually cheaper than the case!

I dropped it a couple of times on the piste and the lens was fine.

I actually sent mine back as one issue was battery life in cold conditions (10 mins max) but they have since introduce a cold weather battery. A bit gutted I returned mine so will be getting another but will probably wait until I can get the venture case to go with it.

What i really like is the ability to get many difference views/angles from the same footage. The tracking option in the software is brilliant, I just skied with my 2 boys then let them make their own videos of themselves afterwards.

They have just updated the software so you can use the gps from your phone to add a speed/gradient display to your videos too.

Be warned you need an ios device with a fair bit of spare memory.
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I'm still considering getting one...

FWIW as I didn't find many examples of skiing 360° headcam footage, here's a couple:

- https://www.instagram.com/p/Btyby8YBbXg/?hl=en (Garmin Virb)
- https://www.facebook.com/carolinegleich/videos/243134003302641
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My own first footage is in one of those linked threads. I think I labelled it "the death of the pole" because in my view it is.

The editing tools are (in my opinion) the main limitation. The consumer stuff is aimed at the mobile phone user
and it's hardly professional grade, but that should change as demand picks up.

Advantages: you don't have to point it in the right direction; you can frame your shots in post; 100% stabilisation for free.
Disadvantages: lower quality; crude editing tools.

The Rylo site has a skier example which looks rather good.
I've zero interest in 360 video, which of course you get for free, but that's not what I want.
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I have bought the Insta 360 one x and am very happy with it
Pros: Perfect stabilization, perfect videos. It's not a point and shoot, ir's a hold and ski.
Easy to edit on your mobile or on PC.
Easy to hold while skiing, in perfect balance with the poles in the other hand.
It helps you visualise your turns and self improve.
Cons: dim display, hard to see even if not in direct sun.
Extremely short life batteries, buy the extra charger with 2 spare ones. (BTW, 10 minutes of watching videotaped ski tracks per day is enough for most folks).
You need a fast mobile with plenty of memory.
On older LG mobiles or Samsung S7 the pole doesn't disappear, it's replaced by a dark round cloud. On my S9, it's perfect.
I bought the tripod as well, allowing me to get 360° still photos as well. Best selfie ever
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Neillp,
Quote:

not too great on android

Can you expand on that? What's not great?
I'm firmly in the android ecosystem, so if the app sucks that is a good reason to not succumb to the temptation to buy yet another gadget.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@mgrolf, this is what I have heat only from comments on the insta360 Facebook group as I am in IOS user, they release most stuff on IOS first and it can take weeks for the android version to catch up, I don’t think the android version has the gps features yet.
It doesn’t work at all on android tablets but works perfectly on an iPad
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
drporat wrote:

You need a fast mobile with plenty of memory.
On older LG mobiles or Samsung S7 the pole doesn't disappear, it's replaced by a dark round cloud. On my S9, it's perfect.


I’ve still got an iPhone 6, do you think it would cope? It’s got plenty of spare memory (20gb) but would the processor be quick enough?

Great review by the way - I’m getting more and more tempted!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Handy Turnip, iPhone 6 will be fine, it is just the space you need as the files can be really big.
You can trim them before importing though which really helps.
Use the insta360 app and iMovie and you can make something nice enough to put on social media in 20 minutes
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They've got some sample ski footage and some "how to use this skiing" (that is, how to mount it) stuff on the Rylo site, and their stuff works on all phones too:
https://www.rylo.com/stories/index.html

The files are much smaller than 4K GoPro ProTune. Sure they're 5.8K, but the bit rate isn't there.

I haven't used other systems, but the Rylo editor's "follow this" is not good enough, in my experience, if anything much is happening in the video.
It'll track and then get confused. It's easier to do it by hand, and you get better crops. I doubt any one else's is any better because they're
working with the same problem.

You don't need any case other than the standard one it ships with.
They come with a little hood which is handy, as you can't put a 360 degree lens down very easily without that.

Note that the editors supplied with these are essentially designed to help you extract stable crops from the 360 source, and to remove the pole.
You still have to actually edit the stuff together, after that.

Perhaps the editing time is inversely proportional to the length of the resultant video.
Disadvantage: it takes longer to edit because you have two stages not one.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Regarding editing on One X, you can download the app and see the tutorial. I think it's also available on their website. It's easy and effective
My only real problem is the dim display. To circumvent it I set indoors in advance the type of photo shots and video i want, then later on the snow I can just switch from one to the other.
Again, on S7 and older LG phones, the pole was obscured by a black round disc. It was perfect with my S9.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@drporat, @philwig, @Neillp - cheers all, some great tips.

So what settings do you normally use as standard on the Insta 360 One X? I notice you can get up to 5.7k resolution but at a lower fps - do you generally use a lower resolution (3k?) which gives you 100fps, and more of an ability to really slow things down?

I quite like the idea of speeding up a skiing video, to then slow it right down for a few seconds using the angle to move around the skiier (kinda matrix style), before speeding it back up again.
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HDR for stills. With timer and the bullet time tripod.
For 360° I use the recommended 5.7K. Otherwise i would have switched to the lower with 100 fps.
I bought the basic camera kit, batteries and the bullet time extended kit, with the pole and the tripod handle
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Handy Turnip, I found shooting in 4k was good enough quality for Social Media and the file size was manageable, I could also slow down and speed up fine.

3K if you want super slow and 5.7K if you want the best quality but slow mo might be an issue (never tried it).

Just be aware shooting in 4K will not give 4K quality on a TV as you are cropping in to only use a selection of the 4K footage.

Oh and of course you can always publish your footage as a full 360 degree video but then the viewer has to decide what to look at and will miss that comedy fall!
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Remember that the 5.7K resolution is for the entire 360 degree image capture. If you punch in to a normal field of view you are going to be closer to a 1080p frame size. Probably better to think of the 360 degree cameras as Full HD rather than 4K cameras. If you want to film in a higher framerate for smooth slow motion when you punch in the image quality will degrade from Full HD - still pretty good, but not as good as filming in 25fps or 30fps.

I've recently bought an Insta 360 One X and I think I'll set it to 5.7K HDR which records in a 25FPS frame rate, which is the same as I use on other cameras so easier to edit with other footage without having to retime the footage.
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I was thrilled to discover that if I lower the camera towards the ankles with its head down 180 degrees, for a close up of the skiis speeding on hard ice, the video remained undisturbed. Smart thing.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Neillp, @rob@rar - good point about 5.7k not actually being 5.7k as you lose resolution as you crop to only use a selection. I might test on both 5.7k and 4k with the slow mo, and see which looks better (not that I've actually bought the thing yet!).

@drporat, I saw a great video where they attached it to a car wheel. Incredibly it still manage to stablise the footage even when spinning around at speed!
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@rob@rar, did you get any good skiing video??
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kitenski wrote:
@rob@rar, did you get any good skiing video??
Only just got it, so not had much chance to test it yet (and I hardly ever video skiing as the footage is too dull to watch, mostly it's holidays and family stuff).
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Yeah, people wet their pants about high frame rates and then pretty much never use them, or over use them initially and then forget how to use them thereafter. If you want to do something specifically slow motion, swap to a camera which is good at that. I miss the glory of full 4k, but current professional higher-resolution 360 stuff will be obsolete in a flash and is clunky and expensive. A year or two should fix all that.... thinking about it the cost drivers for these aren't a lot different from single-lens/ single sensor GoPro type cameras, and those have already been cost-engineered, so prices should drop/ specs should rise quicker than they did with the GoPro.

The Rylo editor at least actually crops to the same aspect ratio as your phone. Mine's a modern 18:9, not 16:9, so there's some further editing required for that. You need to take it into account in your app. You're going to be looking at somewhat fewer pixels than 1080 across in almost all cases because you're going to crop into the image more than that.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@philwig, I completely agree. Even with the ability to do 4K on my hero, i still did most videos in full hd as it was quicker to do all the editing with smaller file sizes. My videos are just for family and friends, so as long as the quality is good enough, it doesn’t need to be professional quality in any sense.

Just ordered the insta, very exiting to have a new toy on its way!!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
New toys rule!
(And these are particularly good, if you've tried more traditional cameras, these are a bit stunning. I wish I had had a bag of them, I could have sold them all...)
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@Handy Turnip, Did you get the One X or the One?
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@Neillp, comedy gold as you ski over that other persons skis!

@Handy Turnip, any good deals around?? Could well be tempted to flog my GoPro.

Does the One X "fit" onto GoPro mounts, poles etc etc?
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Swede who I was skiing with last November almost out-gadgeted me Very Happy

He had the GoPro fusion and that initially seemed a great piece of kit, but then throughout the week he had various hardware issues, but the main limiter for me was there no real way to edit/integrate the footage into premiere with other film clips.

In the end, what I liked most about the fusion was the shot of someone skiing behind you, so I just turned the camera around every now and again and got some nice footage.



So with something like the Insta 360 One X can you pull those clip and merge with others such as goPro and phone ?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've never tried Premier, don't have the time and patience. I like their Android app, it' s enough for me.
I use the One X to check my turns and record some short memories. Me thinks that everybody but us loses his will to watch ski pistes after 10 to 15 secs.
But on their website https://www.insta360.com/download/insta360-onex you can download their PC software, which they write that "Insta360 Studio for ONE X allows users to edit videos and photos shot on ONE X. It contains the Insta360 Plugin for Adobe Premeier Pro."
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@kitenski, I know, I felt like a right knob wiping someone out on the nursery slope - worst thing was he kept apologising to me!

Ref go pro mounts - it will if you use the venture case or get at 1/4 thread to GoPro adaptor but to be honest the best place for it is at the end of the stick which becomes invisible in the editing software.

Check out the latest videos from davidzehentner on Instagram, his tiny planet video over the jumps is stunning!
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@kitenski, I went for the Insta 360 One X - there were a few slightly cheaper prices through ebay but I played it safe with Amazon and an authorised seller in the end.

As @Neillp mentioned I believe it has the same thread as a 1/4 thread for GoPro. Also if you already have a stick already, then don't buy a new 'invisible' one, try your existing one first. Essentially there is nothing special about the invisible stick, it's just thin enough to be hidden by the stitch line (as long as you position it correctly). So any selfie stick that's thin enough should be invisible.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I also got an extra 'cold weather' battery through the official Insta side, as I thought it would be of use. I haven't got the venture case yet but should really get one - an extra £50 seems a lot on top of everything else!
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cheers all, looks like my employee discount works on the apple website, so I can get the following deal, seems pretty good to me??

thoughts from those in the know?

Insta360 ONE X Camera Bundle £404.40

What’s in the Box
Insta360 ONE X Camera

Portable storage bag

Insta360 bullet-time handle and folding tripod

Insta360 ONE X selfie stick

32GB microSD card

Two Insta360 ONE X batteries

Micro USB charging cable

Micro USB to Lightning adapter cable (40 cm/15.7 in.)

Micro USB to USB-C adapter cable (40 cm/15.7 in.)

Micro USB to micro USB adapter cable (100 cm/39.4 in.)
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@kitenski, looks like a cracking deal!!!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@kitenski, great deal, if you can add accident damage I would as the lenses stick out and a prone to damage.
They can be replaced though
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I’m struggling to find a venture case online?!
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Perfect deal. I registered myself on their website, waiting for the venture case as well
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