Car thread: can I get by with RWD estate?

A snowHead

Currently have a merc e-class estate and wondering if it will be ok for driving to the alps long term or if i should reluctantly change to a 4x4?

Our situation is we will take ownership of a holiday apartment in Chatel this summer and plan to drive a couple of times a year during winter (xmas week and 1/2 term) and also in summer. The property is up a hill on a well maintained centrally located road which I reckon has a gradient of around 5-7pct for about 500 meters. Our route to the alps will probably take us through CH which involves going over the Juras(?) and the Morgins pass. We are a family of 4. Doubt very much we would need to drive once we arrive in resort as we are close to the super Chatel lift.

My options are to either change the car to a 4x4 fitted with all seasons (with winter marking) or stick with current car and run winter marked all-seasons (carrying good chains). I have only driven 16k miles in almost 4 years and current car still feels quite new and my intention was to run this car for many years. Changing the car at this time seems unnecessary as it will be expensive and provide less cargo space. I don't have space at home to properly store a full set of winter tyres.

Question: would i be able to get by with the proposed setup of e-class with winter marked all-seasons and chains or should I bite the bullet and get a new 4x4?

A snowHead

I'd say there's no need to get a new car unless you want one. For the limited number of times you'll hit problems it just doesn't seem necessary. Add to that if there is a problem with snow on the major roads you'd still get stuck, even with a 4 x 4, as everyone else will be blocking the roads.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Save your money, E class estate was made for this type of work. Just get your self on to ebay & buy an old set of wheels & put winter tyres on them, added benefit of keeping your good wheels nice as well.

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^^ This. Once drove a BMW 3 series to the Alps and vowed never again. Following year the hire car was a BMW 1 er which was the 'only one they had' but fitted with winter tyres. Opened my eyes to the effectiveness of winter tyres. And there are 4x4's and 4x4's , choose carefully or you will be no better off than in the Merc.

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Stick with the car, it sounds a good one anyway. Treating it to full winter tyres like @Jonny996, says would be another step up. If you only do 4K miles a year and are not a crazy speed merchant I would run them all year round. especially if you can get them to fit with your existing rims. Your tyres are likely to become unfit more through age related degradation than wear at those sort of mileages. It sounds as if you will always have some weight in the back, ie loaded with ski gear etc. when you meet snow so that will help with traction too. Whilst 4x4 s can be good and helpful I think they are well overrated, 50% of the time, ie going downhill they have little advantage, in fact some would say distinct disadvantages because of the, often, increased centre of gravity and weight. Buy your winter tyres this summer, usually some bargains about before all the lemmings go for them in November Laughing

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I have an E Class estate and a place in the French Alps. Had a CLK before this one. Both have good winter tyres on and never had an issue. Even in 12" of snow the CLK was OK with no chains required-was like a snow plough Toofy Grin

After all it is free

We use my wifes skoda superb estate for trips to les Arcs. It has 4 wheel drive and to be honest have not noticed it ever being of use. If there is snow on the road we put snow chains on - which is a problem in its own right.

@Ozboy, If you are thinking of changing there is an E class All Terrain coming to the UK market in the Spring
http://www.whatcar.com/mercedes-benz/e-class-all-terrain/estate/review/

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+1 for the Merc on winter tyres. I had one for three years, bought a set of wheels and tyres for winter use and it was brilliant. In fact they were more use in the UK where snow clearing is less effective, got me from Buxton to Lincoln once on snow all the way. It was also fun leaving a BMW behind going up Leadenham hill in snow, I'm sure he still doesn't know what happened.

I've actually still got the wheels (but not the car). I know you say you don't have much space, but if you find some, and yours is a W212 (2009-2016), maybe we can deal Smile

the tyres are still on but only have about 4mm left which seems to be generally accepted as where they start to lose effectiveness.

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Just back from Val d in an e class estate. Had winter tyres on it and zero bother on the hard pack snow around the resort. Had chains as well but didn't need them. Will be going back in it in April. Was the comfiest of 4 cars I've driven to alps. ( grand Cherokee, grand voyager and xc90 being the others. ).

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Tnaks all for your very helpful replies. Think sticking with the estate is confirming what my head is telling me (the heart wants a new car).

Question regading winter tyres: I dont really have space to properly store a second set of tyres as I live in London an therefore would have the same set fitted for summer driving also to the Apls. What are general thoughts / real life experience of the All Season tyers (with M+S Winter Rating) over full blown dedicated winter tyres. Brands I have seen include Michelin Cross Climate, Goodyear Vector 4Seasons or Vredestain Quatrac 5. I plan to always carry chains.

@Ozboy, Sometimes your friendly local tyre fitter will store your 'off' tyres for you.

You know it makes sense.

@Ozboy, As you only drive around 4k miles a year how about putting on winter tyres and leaving them on all summer? They will last you 4 years and afterthat they should be replaced anyway as the compound gradually hardens. There will now be a flurry of replies saying they will wear out, not as good as summer tyres in summer yadda yadda yadda.

Once you have winter tyres you are unlikely to have a problem, if you do fit the chains.

We had front wheel drive and winter tyres on two Saab 9-5s for over 10 years and in all that time I fitted the chains once for a 20 yard section to get into our parking. I reckon RWD would have got us in without as it is steep uphill.

Now got a 4x4 Octavia Scout estate with winter tyres and it is brilliant.

On the route you'll be following to Chatel the bit through the Jura can be a challenge in a tough winter and if it is snowy the Pas de Morgins will be clogged with cars on summer tyres trying to get away with it. I'm sure you will be fine.

Enjoy Chatel when you get moved in and we should have a Snowheads meet up!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I fitted the Michelin Cross Climate tyres to my B-Class Merc and thought they were excellent - they do have a full winter rating (i.e. a snowflake) but they're a hybrid tyre. I also live in London doing generally limited mileage and ran them all year with no issues and (apparently) very little wear. I drove to Chamonix on them last Easter and they were superb in the wet on the autoroutes, definitely noticeably better than the previous summer tyres, I felt they dispersed the water better and there was no aquaplaning at all. It wasn't particularly cold or snowy in Cham though so I can't attest to their real winter performance although there's lots of good reviews and youtube videos of them driving up snowy slopes. If you follow the hype, they're a new type of hybrid in that they're winter tyres with some summer features as opposed to most hybrids which are the opposite and (according to Michelin) therefore more compromised - I believed it but didn't regret the purchase.

I have, however, since sold the B-Class and got a Disco (for load capacity and towing reasons), off to Cham again this Easter - a little less concerned about getting around town but a little more concerned about getting there in the first place! (and the cost of treble the amount of Diesel!!)

A snowHead

@DJL we are counting down the months until we get the keys and yes look forward to meeting you.

How are full blown winters for long summer motorway driving thorugn France in the summer heat and rain. Not too worried about tyre wear but safety (braking and handling) is important?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

With winters on the Merc' you should have no problems. I drove a 3-series in southern Germany for 5 years going to the mountains every weekend and never had any problems. Just remember to drive sensible and it will be all fine.

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@endoman, Me too, and no wear issues over what I would expect on summers.

Cross Climates are NOT winters, and as ever a compromise. I wouldnt bother with CC for the Alps, yes better than summers, but not as good as winters.

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Just checked with my local tyre dealer and they are happy to store tyres not in use for £10 / tyre / year + fitting costs to change over.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

In the snow given the choice of driving the C-Class on Full Winters or the X3 (X-Drive) on some half way house I take the Merc every time, feels more "connected". during the summer when C Class in back in its' summer boots the X3 feels better!

After all it is free

@Philip1972, how do you define winter tyres? Cross climates have the right silica content and tread pattern and snowflake marker. What more should they have?

currently running vredestein quatrac 5 on my disco had wintrac extremes on before, did 23k on them used all year round both very impressive tyre's although the quatrac is more of an all season tyre but still carries the snowflake/mountain logo.

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@welshskier, Good articles here http://www.evo.co.uk/features/15600/michelin-cross-climate-vs-winter-and-all-season-tyres

http://www.wintertyres-yorkshire.co.uk/michelin-crossclimate-tyres/

Quote "For consumers who frequently face snow and ice conditions, Michelin still recommends using winter tyres which are designed to have optimal all-around performance in snow and ice conditions"

It is of course horses for courses, but I think we can see that CC are not a full winter.

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I have run full winters all year round for 3 years.

Never ever had a problem in the summer, they are just like tyres!
No, they don't wear out really quickly either.
Yes, they are remarkable in the winter if there is ice or snow.

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If you potter around winter tyres are fine. It's only if you are driving "enthusiastically" are you going to find the (lower) limits. Obviously if you live somewhere hot there will be issues as 7c is the point where performance drops off.

Only issue with running year round is to avoid getting to autumn with 3 mm left - too much to chuck out, too little for effective performance in the snow.

I assess my winter tyres come spring and if they are getting too low (under 4mm) leave them on over the summer and then buy new in November. If over 4mm swap back to summers.

This is made easier by having two sets of wheels and space to store them, not so straight forward if you are stuck for space.

You know it makes sense.

Leave winter tyres on my Merc ML all year round. As I did with my Jag before that, no discernible difference in the ML, there was a little more road noise in the Jag.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Links posted by @Philip1972, make a good case for the Cross Climate tyres.

Back to my original post snowHead

have convinced me that my estate will do the job. Think I am leaning towards getting full winters for winter and having the local tyre shop (who is a Verderstein dealer) store my 'off' tyres for £40.

Thanks all Very Happy

A snowHead

It would would be unlikely you'd have any real problems when using it setup as you describe.

It wouldn't affect you if you are using the same rims for both tire types, but on some Mercedes you have to be careful if you take off alloy wheels and fit steel rims. The steel type have in the past used specific wheel bolts as they need to be shorter, the alloy bolts when used on steal rims have extended out of the back face of mounting hub, interfering with the brake caliper on some examples. The spare steel wheels will sometimes have their owned bolt set to cope with this eventuality.

This is purely anecdotal not advice; a friend based in Spain fitted to his front wheel drive Audi A4 some Michelin cross climate tires last summer as he then went to work in Scandinavia until recently. They quite impressed him with their range in varying conditions, didn't use chains at all as he doesn't have any.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

It amuses me that the exceptional engineering that is projected through sales literature of some very expensive cars doesn't extend to coming up with a common fitment to cope with the eventuality of supplying a steel spare wheel. It would only take a bush on each wheel stud hole to make the same dimensions for all the wheels. As they supply sets of bolts in some cases as original, it seems odd that some lateral thinking didn't allow them to make a fail safe solution by engineering the spare wheel properly.

It's one of the first things they check if you return a lease / owned Mercedes or trade one in to a main dealer. They look to see if the calipers have not been trepanned by the wrong wheel studs. If they are you can get bumped a significant sum to replace the calipers and so bring the vehicle up to scratch.

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I had an original Audi TT, the space saver went on fine, but the original wheel could not fit in the boot. Genius.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

People seem to think 4 x4 are the answer to snow & ice. Wrong. Good WINTER not all season tyres are much more effective. As someone said. Pick up a set of rims, Scrapyard? and fit good WINTER tyres. Change them before you leave the UK and back when you return. In case of needing extra traction get SPIKES SPIDERS not chains. On in under 2 minutes and off in 1. Chains are so old hat and a pain in the a---.

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I can vouch for Michelin Cross Climate tyres. Did a bit of research before fitting and they do get rave reviews.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Living in the UK, it doesn't make sense to run winter tyres all year round, as some have suggested, because they are less effective than summer tyres as the temperature rises. Most weeks of the years are better driven on summer tyres here.

After all it is free

I have these on my Subaru and have run the previous versions all year round (winters in Austria, summers in the UK). They were designed as a winter tyre but after testing marketed as all season due to a decent level of summer performance. I get 22,000 miles out of a set but for winter in Austria the legal tread depth is 4mm.

https://www.nokiantyres.com/winter-tyres/nokian-wr-a4/

@billb, I did a winter driving course with the TCS some years ago and the evidence was clear that winter tyres are vastly better in snow & ice, and still better when the temperature drops below 7C (as it often does in the UK) without snow. Their performance is only slightly worse in warmer weather in terms of braking distance and wear. I've driven winter tyres in the summer with no problem, but the new generation such as Cross Climates seem a good compromise.

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@welshskier, well, yes, of course winter tyres are better below 7C and in snow and ice. I was trying to make the point that summer tyres are better when the temperature rises I.e. most weeks of the year in the UK, on average. So I find it odd that someone would choose to run winter tyres all year. Summer tyres are called summer tyres for a reason but actually they are easily "three season" tyres in most of the UK.

I've driven summer tyres all year with no problem. I've rarely had abs operating and when it did was probably on loose road surface.

Help!!

Car thread: can I get by with RWD estate?

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