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Last chance to do a European ski season?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It appears that the way things are going that British tourists will be subject to Schenghen visa regulations to enter post Brexit Europe. These regulations limit non EU residents to staying a total of 90 days in 180 days inside the Schenghen zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_Area . It may be possible to apply for a long stay visa for up to one year but this is not guaranteed. Time to apply for an Irish passport or sell the ski apartment?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Most of us come home to check the post and revalidate the house insurance anyway but the 90 into 180 might make it difficult or more likely a bespoke deal will just be negotiated. Tourists especially long stay ones are way too important to the receiving countries economy to make it difficult.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 2-10-18 18:49; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The 90-day limit is not an issue for me as I make frequent trips back to the UK during the winter. Does anyone know if visa regulations are going to be a bit like the USA's ESTA scheme (one application which lasts for two years) or a separate application for each time you visit the EU? It's going to be a Royal PITA if it's one application per visit as I typically make 8-10 separate trips each winter.

I'm hoping not to have to sell my apartment, but if the taxes or ownership conditions change significantly because I'll no longer be an EU citizen that might force my hand.
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@rob@rar, Likewise, but hopefully the mayors and businessmen in tbe Tarentaise will be listened to as they are very aware that UK visitors are absolutely vital to the local economy, especially in our neck of tbe woods.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
90 in 180 would lock a lot of people out. What about the snowbirds who overwinter on the costas? Probably put ski geezernaires into the shadows in numbers.
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chocksaway wrote:
@rob@rar, Likewise, but hopefully the mayors and businessmen in tbe Tarentaise will be listened to as they are very aware that UK visitors are absolutely vital to the local economy, especially in our neck of tbe woods.
Let's hope, but sometimes the distance between what Paris wants and what the Tarentaise wants is very great indeed. I wouldn't be shocked if Brexit makes holiday home ownership in France impossible, in much the same way as it is making careers impossible for a number of my friends.

#BrexitDividend
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
chocksaway wrote:
Most of us come home to check the post and revalidate the house insurance anyway but the 90 into 180 might make it difficult or more likely a bespoke deal will just be negotiated. Tourists especially long stay ones are way too important to the receiving countries economy to make it difficult.


Tourists are important, but so are lots of the issues being negotiated. The most important thing for Brussels is maintaining the integrity of the EU and founding principles like freedom of movement.

If there is a bespoke deal, then I'm not so sure it would allow you to work a season. Any deal is likely to be reciprocal. Would May accept a deal that allowed any Polish builders to work in the UK for 6 months, rather than "take back control" of who can work in the UK and for how long.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Look like the Govt is already looking to raise taxes on overseas buyers in London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45698446
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Peter S wrote:
Look like the Govt is already looking to raise taxes on overseas buyers in London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45698446
Yes, I spotted that. Working on an assumed principle of reciprocation, this sort of thing doesn't fill me with hope for the future of third-country owners in the EU Sad
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rob@rar wrote:
The 90-day limit is not an issue for me as I make frequent trips back to the UK during the winter. Does anyone know if visa regulations are going to be a bit like the USA's ESTA scheme (one application which lasts for two years) or a separate application for each time you visit the EU? It's going to be a Royal PITA if it's one application per visit as I typically make 8-10 separate trips each winter....

For short-stay Schengen visas the 90 days isn't a single visit limit, but a total limit (within a 180 day period). So over a say mid-December to mid-April season you would need at least 30 days out of the area. Current short-stay visas can be either single entry or multiple entry - I guess you say when you apply which one you want. They are tourist visas; no working allowed.

If that doesn't work, you can apply for a long-stay visa, which permits a stay of up to a year, or for longer periods persuade the relevant country to issue a residence permit. The latter might be the logical choice for property owners, but could bring with it other requirements (tax or similar).
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ecureuil wrote:
For short-stay Schengen visas the 90 days isn't a single visit limit, but a total limit (within a 180 day period). So over a say mid-December to mid-April season you would need at least 30 days out of the area. Current short-stay visas can be either single entry or multiple entry - I guess you say when you apply which one you want. They are tourist visas; no working allowed.

If that doesn't work, you can apply for a long-stay visa, which permits a stay of up to a year, or for longer periods persuade the relevant country to issue a residence permit. The latter might be the logical choice for property owners, but could bring with it other requirements (tax or similar).
Thanks, I didn't know that. In that case 90 days typically would not be sufficient for a winter season. Something to look in to, possibly with some urgency. Oh joy.

#BrexitDividend Sad
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Terrible prospect without a doubt @rob@rar

#BrexShit 😥
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
There is always space for "highly skilled" work force in the EU Madeye-Smiley . But I do see the problem. Toofy Grin

(edit: maybe I should move it to the naugghty corner?)

However may be working holidays would be possible for young people, if things get straightend out. snowHead
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think part of the distrust of the EU amongst some people in the UK has arisen because of our failure to take advantage of freedom of movement. Perhaps because of our poor language skills too few Britain’s have worked in Europe and just see it as one way traffic for migrant workers. We’ve been damned by our own language.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Plenty of Russians (for example) seem to own property in France (Chx, Courch, ValdI etc), US too in Chx for sure, does anyone know what the tax/charges they have to pay are (specifically are they more onerous than those EU citizens pay)?

I know there was the French social tax added to CGT on sale, which EU then quashed for EU citizens, so for a brief period there the EU got a better deal than non EU, but then the French re-introduced by another means. So now is there any difference being EU or non EU as an owner (at purchase, during ownership, or at sale)? Surely that info would be a strong pointer to any likely differences for Brits post Brexit.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Peter S wrote:
Perhaps because of our poor language skills too few Britain’s have worked in Europe and just see it as one way traffic for migrant workers. We’ve been damned by our own language.


Without turning this into a another Brexit moanfest there are a number of factors:-

Poor language skills.

Obscure and relatively difficult to learn European languages nobody really needs to know.

Difficult labour markets where it is not that easy to pitch up and get a job.

Insular societies that don't welcome strangers (although Britain seems to be going down that route).
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Peter S, “We’ve been damned by our own ignorance”

FIFY
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@davidof, Puzzled “Obscure and relatively difficult to learn European languages nobody really needs to know. ”

French? German? Obscure? Difficult?

Try Scots.
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@under a new name, Dutch Polish Finnish Greek
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@holidayloverxx, I work for a multi-national scientific company with their HQ in the US. We have offices in France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and Finland as well as the UK and Ireland. The corporate language is English, and having visited many of these offices over the last 10 years I've not had any issues with language in any of the countries. From taxi drivers to CEOs, English is never a problem, except in France where staff have to be bi-lingual, or where our IT team in Edinburgh struggle to be understood when speaking to those who learned English with the help of American TV wink

In many of our EU offices, we have staff from several non-local countries, e.g. in the Netherlands we have Dutch (75%), German (5%), French (10%), Spanish (5%), Polish (2%), British (2%) and Finnish (1%) staff. Language is not a barrier to business - but it can be to an integrated social life, so moving there is difficult.

All of the Brits travelling to France, the Costas and Ibiza for the last 50 years have surely developed some understanding of European culture, even if they've never worked abroad - though in many cases that limited and Disneyfied exposure is perhaps behind some of the negativity, fuelled by the frankly xenophobic rubbish published by the Daily Fail, the Express, and the Sun.
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I wonder if we will be able to apply for French "Type D" long term visas, valid for one year as long as you don't work, probably a big faff. There's a bit about it halfway down this page:
https://iamaileen.com/how-to-legally-stay-longer-in-europe-schengen-countries/

FRANCE
As long as you have a solid reason and that you have enough money for the duration of your stay (said to be at minimum $3,000 per month or Php 132,000), you can be granted a long-term visitor visa that can last to only a year (but can be subject to a renewal depending on your reason for wanting to stay longer, your financial means to prove that you’re not going to need to work, etc.) Take note that this type of visa would allow you to take residency in France ONLY starting from the 4th month of your stay (you can still tour the rest of Schengen from the 1st to 3rd months). Anyhow, in a sense, you can still travel around after the 4th month because there are no border checks on land; but again, that’s a huge risk and it’s illegal. If you get caught, well… you know what could happen and it’s not gonna be good.
For more information: See France Consulate or ask your local French embassy for more details

and the official page: https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/long-stay-visa
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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@holidayloverxx, the business language of Holland is de facto English.

Every Finn I’ve ever met spoke fluent ... English.

I’ve done business with no problems negotiating in Poland and Greece in ... English ...
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
For everyone that this issue affects I would suggest that you have a look at the fantastic work the SBIT (seasonal businesses in travel) are doing trying to campaign for an ongoing/equivilant A1 system for after Brexit.

http://sbit.org.uk/

A1s are the system under which French EDF workers can work on a project in the Uk for a few months whilst still paying their social security charges in france, thereby retaining the benefit of those contributions. It's the same system that allows UK tour operator staff travel to europe to "work a season" and indeed allows eastern european vegetable pickers work a summer in the UK whilst still paying their tax and social security into their home system so they get the benefit of their contributions when they return home.

The legalities surrounding it are too complicated to explain in detail on a short post but without this part of freedom of movement after Brexit the UK outbound travel industry will look very different after Brexit!
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That's the problem, isn't it. Nobody actually needs to learn Spanish/German/French in order to work in those countries, so there's no need. But living in a country without being fluent must become rather wearing after a time. So you will never find English working abroad. All other European countries have such poor economies (or are so small) there would be no point anyway in moving for work.

If you are English and want to choose another European language to learn because you fancy working there, which do you choose? There is no sensible answer to that. Nobody chooses to do business in France - that's why there are hundreds of thousands of French in London. Nobody does business in Spain or Italy, they're in permanent recession. Nobody will ever speak German as well as the Germans speak English. So you're left with learning Dutch, Norwegian or Danish. Anybody ever met somebody who learned one of those languages at school?
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Quote:

If that doesn't work, you can apply for a long-stay visa, which permits a stay of up to a year, or for longer periods persuade the relevant country to issue a residence permit. The latter might be the logical choice for property owners, but could bring with it other requirements (tax or similar).

Now hasn't that advocate of the UK leaving the EU, Nigel Lawson, applied for permanent residancy in France now that he is wreaking the UK and that other one Rees Mogg moved his investment fund to Ireland so he personally isn't disadvantaged from the UK leaving the EU
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Quote:

So you're left with learning Dutch, Norwegian or Danish. Anybody ever met somebody who learned one of those languages at school?

Yes.

Mind you they were Norwegian and they had to learn a different Norwegian language.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
James the Last wrote:
All other European countries have such poor economies (or are so small) there would be no point anyway in moving for work.

If you are English and want to choose another European language to learn because you fancy working there, which do you choose? There is no sensible answer to that. Nobody chooses to do business in France - that's why there are hundreds of thousands of French in London.
Similar numbers of UK citizens live in France compared to French citizens living in the UK. Age profile isn't the same, Brits in France older on average than French living in the UK. Plenty of Brits work in France, and other EU countries.

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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Statistics aside the timing of these events are contributing factors to my "doing a season" this winter. I've retired (a little early) and I'm currently getting my ducks in line for the season ahead. There may never be another chance to do this again in this manner. Full season in France. Vehicle with me and the possibility of a couple of trips over the border into Italy. Plus the opportunity to visit other French resorts that I haven't been to.

Unrestricted visits from my superior other half. (currently looking at 30+ days with flights in and out of GVA).

Instruction/tuition/guiding. Some of this will be with British instructors who are currently allowed to work in Europe/France with the "right" qualifications.


I'm able to do all this now without a thought to travel restrictions/visas etc. It could all change. It could stay roughly the same but I'm filling my boots while I can. Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
GeorgeVII wrote:
I'm able to do all this now without a thought to travel restrictions/visas etc. It could all change. It could stay roughly the same but I'm filling my boots while I can. Very Happy
Have a great season. Hope the snow is as good for you as it was last winter.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Language: "the Germans will sell to you in English but buy from you in German".

Smart lads, these johnny foreigners.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
James the Last wrote:
That's the problem, isn't it. Nobody actually needs to learn Spanish/German/French in order to work in those countries, so there's no need. But living in a country without being fluent must become rather wearing after a time. So you will never find English working abroad. All other European countries have such poor economies (or are so small) there would be no point anyway in moving for work.

If you are English and want to choose another European language to learn because you fancy working there, which do you choose? There is no sensible answer to that. Nobody chooses to do business in France - that's why there are hundreds of thousands of French in London. Nobody does business in Spain or Italy, they're in permanent recession. Nobody will ever speak German as well as the Germans speak English. So you're left with learning Dutch, Norwegian or Danish. Anybody ever met somebody who learned one of those languages at school?


I wote for Danish Madeye-Smiley , but seriusly is that your view on the other European countries? A bit luck of perspective I would say. Look at the mirror - I could say upstairs downstairs society - or an empire which has not found out to be a small country now. Shocked
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@rob@rar, Thanks Rob. Yes fingers crossed for another great season. There were times last season when we weren't able to get out due to storms and amounts of snow. (first time we have ever claimed for "lost" days).

Really looking forward to it and the opportunity to cherry pick my ski days instead of "I've paid for my pass, I'm going out!!"
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

Look like the Govt is already looking to raise taxes on overseas buyers in London


Well it's one way to try and reduce the numbers of foreigners buying London property purely as an investment. Vancouver had the same problem, and also bought in a tax. The big loser is of course the foreigner that genuinely wants to buy a house to live in it themselves.

Im surprised how upset people are about the possibility of "only" getting 3 months as a tourist. Just do Jan, Feb, march where conditions are best, skip December and april when you are not guaranteed good skiing anyway. if you plan to be back in UK at some points it seems even more doable. 3 months should be plenty of time to ski. I get that it's an inconvenience, but it doesn't seem that terrible in the grand scheme of things. See the off-piste thread about russian visas for some perspective.

If you really want to do a full season Canada gives you 6 months as a tourist. Georgia gives you a whole year. So still other options.

The big losers are those looking to work a season for whom things may become a lot more difficult.
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GeorgeVII wrote:
@rob@rar, Thanks Rob. Yes fingers crossed for another great season. There were times last season when we weren't able to get out due to storms and amounts of snow. (first time we have ever claimed for "lost" days).
On those days head down the Tarentaise to Bourg and zoom up the Funicular to Arc 1600. Last season when Tignes was on lockdown we had some awesome skiing through the trees around Arc 1600 and Arc 1800 Happy
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
James the Last wrote:
That's the problem, isn't it. Nobody actually needs to learn Spanish/German/French in order to work in those countries, so there's no need. But living in a country without being fluent must become rather wearing after a time. So you will never find English working abroad. All other European countries have such poor economies (or are so small) there would be no point anyway in moving for work.

If you are English and want to choose another European language to learn because you fancy working there, which do you choose? There is no sensible answer to that. Nobody chooses to do business in France - that's why there are hundreds of thousands of French in London. Nobody does business in Spain or Italy, they're in permanent recession. Nobody will ever speak German as well as the Germans speak English. So you're left with learning Dutch, Norwegian or Danish. Anybody ever met somebody who learned one of those languages at school?


Hmm a spectacularly superficial and arrogant assessment of the rest of Europe. Are you JRM in disguise?

Spain and Italy supply us with lots of stuff from pasta to hogh end kitchens to tomatoes and ski boots. France is a huge population and actually quite anglophile - they love their Landrovers etc so you're mad if you ignore them as a market, despite their idiosyncracies. I suppose Jonny English who flys in and barks at them in English gets the best deals compared to those that sit down, drinks coffee and wine and gossips in the local language.
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GeorgeVII wrote:
Statistics aside the timing of these events are contributing factors to my "doing a season" this winter. I've retired (a little early) and I'm currently getting my ducks in line for the season ahead. There may never be another chance to do this again in this manner. Full season in France. Vehicle with me and the possibility of a couple of trips over the border into Italy. Plus the opportunity to visit other French resorts that I haven't been to.

Unrestricted visits from my superior other half. (currently looking at 30+ days with flights in and out of GVA).

Instruction/tuition/guiding. Some of this will be with British instructors who are currently allowed to work in Europe/France with the "right" qualifications.


I'm able to do all this now without a thought to travel restrictions/visas etc. It could all change. It could stay roughly the same but I'm filling my boots while I can. Very Happy


Pretty much the same here. Currently booked for 44 days this season and may do more.

For residency, I appreciate that you can only apply after 5 years, but do you need to spend more than 50% of the year there, each year, to apply?

Gutted my Irish lineage is just too distant to qualify.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rob@rar,
Quote:

On those days head down the Tarentaise to Bourg and zoom up the Funicular to Arc 1600. Last season when Tignes was on lockdown we had some awesome skiing through the trees around Arc 1600 and Arc 1800 Happy

Shhh - and don't mention entering the system at Villaroger
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
under a new name wrote:
@holidayloverxx, the business language of Holland is de facto English.

Every Finn I’ve ever met spoke fluent ... English.

I’ve done business with no problems negotiating in Poland and Greece in ... English ...


we are agreeing - difficult languages we don't need to learn (it was in response to your veiled assertion that French and German aren't difficult; I just picked languages that are)
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johnE wrote:
Shhh - and don't mention entering the system at Villaroger
Nothing to see here. Move along now, move along...
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@johnE, @rob@rar, Oh yes? 'nuf said! wink
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