 Poster: A snowHead
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@Sharkymark, but have they switched the waist buckle round so you can actually use it with gloved hands??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@offpisteskiing, TBC...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ended up ordering a Scott Alpride E1 40 Litre from spyderjon - it turned up today, first impressions are good. Enough space without being too deep and a lot of great features too.
Must try opening the waist buckle with gloves on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DB wrote: |
| ......Must try opening the waist buckle with gloves on. |
It easy and you can do it one handed. If you can't get thinner gloves!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On multi day tours most don’t take airbags touring, too much weight + space lost. Unless I know I’m headed into danger areas I don’t take one, for shorter tours to ski specific routes I do but don’t need the space. So I think it just depends what you plan to do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| It easy and you can do it one handed. If you can't get thinner gloves! |
...unless you are skiing in Baffin Island, Siberia etc etc where the ambient temperature is -30...
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ......Must try opening the waist buckle with gloves on. |
It easy and you can do it one handed. If you can't get thinner gloves! |
Just tried it with my thick Hestra level gloves (inc. thermal liners) that I have used down to -26 Deg C (and windy). Once I worked how out how, it was easy.
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| Charliee wrote: |
| On multi day tours most don’t take airbags touring, too much weight + space lost. Unless I know I’m headed into danger areas I don’t take one, for shorter tours to ski specific routes I do but don’t need the space. So I think it just depends what you plan to do. |
I do both. That‘s another plus point. On the one day tours at the weekend I‘ll use the whole setup. On a multi-day tour I can take the airbag gubbins out to give me more space.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Total bollux that the BD Jetforce Pro can be voted top v the Scott Patrol E1 30 when the Scott has a better pack/more features, more volume, a removeable/swappable system, not subject to temperature issues, is 10% lighter, bag will deploy when lateral carrying and is considerably cheaper. Obvious advertorial which I presume is funded by BD so highly biased. One of things I like about Scott is that they don't do paid-for product placements.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring.............
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You know it makes sense.
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it and only an addition 1.3 kg for something that could save your life. I've lost over double that amount getting fit for the winter - bring it on. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DB wrote: |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it |
I remember those, you have to pull about 20 times and do it in some special way to get the syphon to flush
"look, look, it is really easy, start progressively then give it a little yank at the end"
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
Maybe the first generation ones 10 years ago, but the light models around today are a doddle to tour with. What’s an additional 1kg for something that could save your life?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
...neither of which are true IMHO. Especially for the only thing that can make a positive change if you're unfortunate enough to set the world in motion, as it were
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ......Must try opening the waist buckle with gloves on. |
It easy and you can do it one handed. If you can't get thinner gloves! |
It seems the 30L packs (from 2020 at least) had the buckle with the tag on stitched in backwards...easy enough to tell. That buckle ain't coming off for anyone with one hand!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Sharkymark wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
...neither of which are true IMHO. Especially for the only thing that can make a positive change if you're unfortunate enough to set the world in motion, as it were |
If you are daft or poorly educated enough to put yourself in a position where you set the world in motion. Then perhaps a comfort blanket helps. Having carried one by order of my missus for 6 or 7 years but no longer I’ve concluded you’re better off carrying knowledge not weight. 1500 days on skis and counting I know what works for me and it’s carry stuff in my bag that supports quality decision making rather than risk taking. It’s the holiday maker mentality that is the biggest risk to yourself and other skiers around you.
Spend the money if you like though,makes you look like you’ve though it thru a little and you’ll be supporting someone’s business.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Daleskier, each to their own. My opinion is very humble but there's always a risk: all you can do is minimise it. 'Holiday maker mentality' lol.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Next time your out, look at the which professionals wear an airbag and when, you’ll never see them touring with one.
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We had a guide in Revelstoke get buried to her head walking her dog through the park in the centre of town.
Plan a) avoid avalanche
Plan b) ?
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| Next time your out, look at the which professionals wear an airbag and when, you’ll never see them touring with one. |
Really?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it and only an addition 1.3 kg for something that could save your life. I've lost over double that amount getting fit for the winter - bring it on. |
1.3kg 5 day hut to a hut tour is a lot of expanded energy. I'd be kind of hoping the high alpine guide would know a bit about avi dangers and avoidance and not place me in danger.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it and only an addition 1.3 kg for something that could save your life. I've lost over double that amount getting fit for the winter - bring it on. |
1.3kg 5 day hut to a hut tour is a lot of expanded energy. I'd be kind of hoping the high alpine guide would know a bit about avi dangers and avoidance and not place me in danger. |
Be interested to know how much energy an extra kg on the back uses. Is it significant? Suspect much less so than a kg under the feet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it and only an addition 1.3 kg for something that could save your life. I've lost over double that amount getting fit for the winter - bring it on. |
1.3kg 5 day hut to a hut tour is a lot of expanded energy. I'd be kind of hoping the high alpine guide would know a bit about avi dangers and avoidance and not place me in danger. |
Be interested to know how much energy an extra kg on the back uses. Is it significant? Suspect much less so than a kg under the feet. |
unsure but pro endurance athletes cut excess length off straps to save grams.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
1.3kg 5 day hut to a hut tour is a lot of expanded energy. I'd be kind of hoping the high alpine guide would know a bit about avi dangers and avoidance and not place me in danger. |
https://lenews.ch/2016/01/18/guides-are-no-guarantee-of-avalanche-safety/
In the end it's a process of risk management and risk reduction, not risk elimination. Assuming neither you nor @Daleskier actually believes you've eliminated avalanche risk entirely, it's a tradeoff as to whether the risk is sufficient to carry 1.3kg. I don't notice the weight, and it wouldn't take much training to be able to offset 1.3kg (either through personal weight loss, or through getting a bit more aerobically efficient).
I haven't noticed myself being passed by tourers without avi bags, only by skimo racers in lycra.
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@snowdave, the only way of eliminating the risk of an avalanche is not go out there.
Would you carry that addition 1.3kg, 8hrs of climbing for 6 continous days on a hut to hut tour?
You may not have been passed by tourers as it isn't a race but they may have more left in the tank on days 5 and 6.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| @snowdave, the only way of eliminating the risk of an avalanche is not go out there. |
That's precisely my point - so, knowing there's a risk I'm happy to carry the 1.3kg. You're not, that's fine, it's a personal decision. 1.3kg makes so little difference to me that the cost/benefit tradeoff is easy. 1.3kg means a lot to you so you don't value the benefit enough.
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| Would you carry that addition 1.3kg, 8hrs of climbing for 6 continous days on a hut to hut tour? |
Yes.
I rope up on glaciers and that adds at least 3kg and slows me down way more than 1.3kg in my backpack. I've never needed it yet. I carry a satellite beacon on some trips and have never used the SOS on that either.
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| You may not have been passed by tourers as it isn't a race but they may have more left in the tank on days 5 and 6. |
Entirely possible, but I think I've got a pretty good idea of my pacing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
@snowdave, the only way of eliminating the risk of an avalanche is not go out there.
Would you carry that addition 1.3kg, 8hrs of climbing for 6 continous days on a hut to hut tour?
You may not have been passed by tourers as it isn't a race but they may have more left in the tank on days 5 and 6. |
The Haute Route is approx 1000m climbing per day so more like 3-4 hours climbing. IMO this is not a big deal with an airbag and assuming you slightly reduce pace for the weight might add 10 minutes per day. And unless you are in the middle of a big anticyclone, or touring on very flat terrain, somewhat risky to assume you can predict weather and potential avalanche activity 6 days ahead. The last time I did the Haute Route, with a guide, we had to descend from Vignettes to Arolla due to 30cm of snow overnight on the last night and resulting avalanche risk. The descent certainly wasn’t risk free. I will definitely take my avalanche pack this time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Airbags too heavy and complicated for ski touring............. |
As complicated as pulling the chain on an old toilet to flush it and only an addition 1.3 kg for something that could save your life. I've lost over double that amount getting fit for the winter - bring it on. |
1.3kg 5 day hut to a hut tour is a lot of expanded energy. I'd be kind of hoping the high alpine guide would know a bit about avi dangers and avoidance and not place me in danger. |
Even experienced guides get hit by avalanches. They offer risk avoidance not risk elimination.
There's nothing or no one in this world that can tell you where the avalanche risk is on exactly every point of the terrain. There could be one unexpected trigger point that even someone with vast experience may hit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowdave wrote: |
| I haven't noticed myself being passed by tourers without avi bags, only by skimo racers in lycra. |
Go faster lycra is a must but it doesn't come without VPL risk. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DB wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| I haven't noticed myself being passed by tourers without avi bags, only by skimo racers in lycra. |
Go faster lycra is a must but it doesn't come without VPL risk. |
As Julia Mancuso says... go skin to win!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Daleskier wrote: |
If you are daft or poorly educated enough to put yourself in a position where you set the world in motion.
Then perhaps a comfort blanket helps. Having carried one by order of my missus for 6 or 7 years but no longer I’ve concluded you’re better off carrying knowledge not weight. |
I make my own decisions and carry both.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 16-11-20 10:39; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you're planning a tour where 1.3kg on your back makes the difference between safety or not, perhaps it's not the right tour?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@DB, children have been hit by an avalanche on piste. I did say avoidance rather than elimination
I cant remember where I read, possibly not even true and i dreamt it but some clever dude calculated every 500grams extra carried in your bag is a 1% cost in VO2 efficiency.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| @DB, children have been hit by an avalanche on piste. I did say avoidance rather than elimination |
I'm aware of avalanches hitting people on pistes. It's another important point in support of an airbag. You might be the most knowledgeable, experienced and careful backcoutry ski tourer but that doesn't stop someone above you setting an avalanche off. (either a skier/boader skiing down or another group skiining up that do not space out enough or take the wrong route)
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| I cant remember where I read, possibly not even true and i dreamt it but some clever dude calculated every 500grams extra carried in your bag is a 1% cost in VO2 efficiency. |
As VO2 max is measured in milli-litres per kg per min it's hardly rocket science. For a 70 kg person, a 1.3kg additional weight would equate to around 2%. Then again VO2 max is not the be and end all of physical performance.
It's up to you what you do. I prefer to get fitter, drop weight, go on avi courses and take the following safety equipment : shovel, probe, transceiver and avalanche airbag. In the more extreme terrain I also employ the services of a mountain guide
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I'm thinking that many UK people are carrying more than the few marginal grams of a Mammut ultralight around their midriffs.
Perhaps we should add lack of airbag use to the risks caused by obesity. Or perhaps the root cause of both is similar
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The best way for most people to speed up on the uphill is to reduce stops/faff rather than obsess about every last gram in their pack
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I thought that I would revisit this thread to see if we've managed to reach a consensus on the best Avi bag for touring. But, as is often the case, the thread seems to have got lost in a white-out and taken a wrong turn
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FAQ
