Traditional skis

A snowHead

I tried to post this earlier; but can't see it in the forum. The question I posed was whether there were any readers of my generation (ie old!) who are still skiing on 'pommes frites'. And if so, did you , like me, try carvers, and find yourself unable/unwilling to convert from unweighting/sliding to carving. Any thoughts?

A snowHead

saye, I don't (hopefully) fall into your "old" category but have a slightly OT question. Did you take lessons? Carvers are simply easier and more efficient/effective. I am slightly at a loss as to why you wouldn't like them... Although as a point of principle I still think you should learn on skinny skis first... wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Not formally is the answer! To which you will certainly reply that I should have! In my defence, m'lud, I did study videos and text, and did follow the 'guidance' (instruction not allowed!) offered by SCGB reps. In essence, I can carve on carvers, but found them, paradoxically perhaps, more tiring than those graceful sweeps I enjoyed on 'pommies'. I concede that tight turns down a steep fall line are easier on those shorter parabolas, but I have not found any other advantage (and several disadvantages when schussing). In writing about this in a SCGB forum, I was universally pep-talked into the need to get into school and get down to the gym. Fair comment, but I don't know, as I approach my 70th year, that this old dog really wants to do that! In essence, I'm a fast cruiser/slider whose legs no longer enjoy the hard pummeling. All I now look for is an easy, enjoyable ride, and I am disappointed in the technology (and in myself) that carvers don't seem to help me. Am I alone? Jeremy S.

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Hello Saye, I am 49 and bought carving skis last year. Actually to be able to keep an eye on my younger sons who like to follow snowboard paths in between trees. (yes, not the most safe thing to do) I simply couldn't follow them on my "pommes frites" on 1.90 mtrs, wasn't possible to turn.
Here is my 2pc worth thoughts:
After using them for about a year I think it has given me more fun, especially if I try to go fast curves down medium to steep falls, actuall putting weigth to turns (I really didn't do that much before) When i go fast straight downhill I find them unstable - "flabbering" and then I miss the old ones who was more of a downhill ski, so fast downhill runs are not so funny as it used to be. When easy going I don't find them very different from my oldones.

I am by all means not an expert, but I think that you have got yourself carving skies that has to much flex and also guess you could have added an inch or two to the length. Hm, might be laughed at by others as this is really just speculations. Did you try other sets?
Mine are Rossignol Zenith Z1 170cm long and my height are 188cm

PS! anyone know if places like Ischgl have places where fast downhill runs are allowed? Is tempting to bring my old "pommies" as well.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Schladming had a specific speed run, and average speed was pretty damn quick - people jumping off ridges etc! Seemed to be expected so perhaps you'll find the same at ischgl? aj xx

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In Kitzbuhel last week I saw several people skiing (or rather standing about holding) long skis which looked suspiciously like non-carvers. They didn't look particularly old (the skis or the skiers), so I assume that they are still made.

Slightly to my concern a shop in Kitzbuhel was selling as 'antiques' a pair of skis which looked exactly like the ones I first skied on in 1971; plain black tops, red bottoms, wire bindings. Step in bindings had just been introduced, IIRC, but the bog standard package was these skis and leather boots.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

What was the sidecut radius on the old school skis? It was possible to carve them, but it was just harder to achieve it.

After all it is free

saye, Lessons. wink

Carvers aren't THAT different to use - they are still skis after all ! They do take a little to get used to, it helps if your feet are apart, and you'll probably need to look at the way you start a turn.

You are probably used to 'up-unweighting' and pivoting the skis to start a turn, carvers work best by keeping them in the snow and using just an edge change to start the turn....

On the other hand, if you are enjoying what you do now why change ?

I 'm 5ft 10 and ski at the moment a 186ish length (down from the 192s I started on 10years ago) and both my AT and tele skis have an approx sidecut of 98-69-88 which is probably narrow by modern standards but is more than my old 192s (which I still use occasionally as rock skis in Scotland). I don't have any problems skiing them. May go shorter and wider if/when I upgrade to a new set of tele skis for mainly lift served skiing.

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saye, I don't think you'll find anyone who still skis on straight skis, in our chalet we've still got a couple of pairs of old style skis kept for decoration rather than use but available if anyone wants to take them, along with the mono-ski still hanging on the ski-room wall, although that gets at least one outing a year, if only for the end-of-season comedy races.
There is no way I would go back to straight skis and I learnt to ski on 217cms wooden planks and I'm in my fifth decade of skiing. Maybe the skis you were using just didn't suit you. You can do everything on parabolic skis that you can do on long skis, my epiphany came about 8 yrs ago when I was still using 203 cms skis and wondered why I was just so much more tired than my son, apart form the age difference and the fact that he ws working as a ski instructor, when he compared his 170 cms carvers (early Heads) with mine and explained that I was pushing 15% more ski around than him, using much effort to do it but had no more contact than hhis skis did. I've never skied on anything longer than 180 cms since and somtimes borrow my daughters 155 cms slalom skis that are as stiffa and heavy as anything I've ever used, but great fun for really ripping down a piste. Long post but simple message - persevere, I'm sure you'll find it worthwhile. BTW I've never had lessons on using carvers, I haven't taken lessons since I trained as an ASSI in the 1980s but I did learn to carve on straight skis.

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saye, I skied with a fantastic 70ish yr old chap over Christmas. He was on his 2nd pair of Rossy Bandits (an off/on piste all mountain ski, but still a "carver") and loving them. He found that he could ski in more control for longer, because they were easier to turn - give them a try (and a one to one lesson for an hour or two with a good instructor) and you won't look back.

saye, Without seeing you ski, it's really difficult to comment. I appreciate what you're saying re schussing - carvers have a habit of trying to do what they're designed to do - i.e. turn. Some are not happy in straight lines. The nice things is you can keep them on just a very tiny arc. Actually, you can keep then on tight turns without losing speed so going straight is not so necessary.

Otherwise they just work better. So, I do think you need someone to work out what you're doing wrong on them - as it sounds as though something ain't right - and show you how to exploit them. I don't think there's any additional requirement for fitness over and above what you're used to...

I suppose also, there is a whole spectrum of shapedness out there from the Atomic Metrons downwards. Maybe try some different skis?

One problem you will face is finding anywhere to rent skinny skis (although I reckon there'll be a whole community of happy eBayers at the prospect that someone might want their archaic kit...)

You know it makes sense.

David Murdoch, Laughing

They're not archaic. They're "nordic", yea, that's it.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

David@traxvax, how did the Dynastars you bought from me work out?

A snowHead

comprex, what, as in preserved in mud and dug out alongside the funeral pyre and viking longboat?

A snowHead

David Murdoch, don't you want a viking skiing funeral?

Seriously, if you look at the sizes and sidecuts of some of the current crop of 'backcountry nordic' skis, be careful of late-90s-alpine flashbacks.

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Charlatanefc, they're fine, good useful piste skis.

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I tried various carving skis (result of everyone saying 'you'll find turning so much easier' - not that I had a problem with that, thanks) and thought they were rubbish - so short thet I felt as if I was going to fall on my nose all the time, and ridiculously unstable when trying to go in a straight line. However, I have just given it one more go on a pair of 172cm Dynastar Legend 4800s (all-mountain skis rather than the carvers I tried before), and suddenly I am Franz Klammer. I have even been seeking out moguls to play on, and have been spotted skiing off the piste! So maybe look at the all-mountain type things.

But at the end of the day, if you like what you've got, what's wrong with that?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Lizzard,

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David@traxvax, pleased to hear it matey Wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

You may well be right about the flappy in bumps thing - I'm a bit new to moguls, so I may find I agree as I get better at it. They are pants on ice as well (bit too soft, maybe?), but in general I find them to be spiffing.

After all it is free

I just got carvers last spring, a pair of Fischer Worldcup SCs with a 13-m turn radius. They are great fun making short turns. The do want to be turning ALL the time. You have to keep them ever so slightly on edge or they will hunt back and forth. I also have a long pair of old SG racing skis (calculated turn radius of 70 m) . The long skis will carve very nice long arcs, and don't mind at all going straight down the hill. The SGs are a bear in bumps and a handful when going slow.

I don't push my skis around, I learned long long ago to just tip the skis and let them do the work, though with the old skis I have to do a lot more active fore-aft force management to engage the edges and keep them engaged, and short turns take a lot of work and did require a fair amount of time to learn.

I think there must be a happy medium between the above two skis. I think you should try something with say a 24 m radius before you give up on shaped skis.

You'd think there would be a club for traditional skiers, organising trips to the slopes clad in leather boots, with wooden skis etc. Bit like those drivers who insist on going on rallies driving ancient motors, clad in silly hats and goggles Very Happy

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Lizzard,

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Lizzard, I spent 3 days on a new, test pair of 158's. I also considered the 8000 fibre, but could not find a pair to demo. My shortlist consisted of the 4800's, 8000 Fibre, Head Monster77,Stockli Stormrider AT. Nowhere had any of the Head's, the Stormrider AT's were wonderful at everything I threw at them, and I also spent 2 days on Movement Demon Flame's, which I found pretty versatile. I put up a short review in this section. I definitely won't be buying the 4800's. Suggestions for icy days, Stockli Stormrider AT's, rock solid edge grip, very smooth, won't be deflected by basher tracks etc. If you are a very strong skier you may be able to enjoy the Stormrider, but, like me, your weight is against you, they are stiffer, shortest available is a 163, (many fans among snowHead

)

Getting back to the original poster's saye's question. No, I no longer use my skinnys'. If you want to try the new shaped skis, my suggestion would be to test some All Mountain, or Freeride skis, which can feel more stable underfoot, and have a wider midsection.

saye, You must have had some sort of problem as already mentioned, and should try again, but as snowbunny, says, maybe with an all-mountain ski which doesn't have a very big sidecut. I had a pair of Scratch FSs which I've got rid of because I reckoned I skied a bit old school on them - they seemed to like forward pressure and didn't hold up well to leaning to the inside! I also found the Head Monster 75/77 nicely planky which should suit. I'm not being rude, just suggesting a couple of skis I've used which are much less happy to turn (which is what I like). BTW I learnt on leather boots and wooden skis (although I'm not as old as you), but would really encourage you to learn to use the new skis. Once you've got the hang of them you'll have much less stress on your body, which should help you to ski for longer in your life.

Lizzard, For awesome edge hold Fischer world Cup SC - can't be made to let go if you don't want to, but will do longer turns quite happily and cut through pretty much anything you point them at! Very Happy

ONLY BAD SKIERS GO STRAIGHT EXCEPT ON PATHS - now that's set the cat among the pigeons!! wink

Seriously though, good skiers turn all the time. All those straight down the mountain guys are BAD SKIERS!!!

You know it makes sense.

easiski, misspelling I'm sure, "EXCEPT" ought to read "EVEN"? wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski, come on now, figure 11s can be good fun sometimes!

A snowHead

Thanks to all for your helpful inputs. For Easiski: I agree, and I should do what you say. But I have tried carvers, and actually got on quite well with last year's Rossi RPM 90s, which were much more stable than some other carvers I tried. With all of them, however, I tired more quickly than on pommies, although this seems contrary to the experience of others. It seemed to me that that the carvers were more in control of the turn than the pommies, whereas the latter could be more easily controlled by edging/weighting as required. I guess all those hours of learning how to side-slip (the basis for control, in my view) keep coming to the fore. I know your slur that it is only bad skiers who go straight is tongue-in-cheek, but you only say that because you can't! Actually, I must retract that because I see from your post that you're an instructor, and thus able to make the ski do anything. How I envy you! For us amateurs, I tend to agree with Lizzard on the lack of directional stability when you take the carver off its edge. But who said that one has to edge all the time; there's much (effortless) fun to be had in just letting those pommies run? Overall, I guess there's no solution to the question posed. Let's just enjoy it all in any way that we choose; but it's fun to listen to the experiences of others. Biggles

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Up until 12 months ago I've been using a 15 year old pair of Blizzards and the first time I tried carvers when hiring I was a bit lost with them. Without fully understanding how to ski them properly I found that they were controlling the turn, not me and when performing a sharp stop I was actually continuing to turn towards the fence rather than sliding to a nice stop! I also found my legs and feet aching severly from trying to over-compensate though never had problems with straight line stability. This was all down to my skiing method though and I soon figured it out and actually enjoy the tightness of turn, which does come in handy on some of the poor cover runs.

I do still find it more natural using the old style, but thats purely because I learnt on them and grew up with them, however I actually find the carvers to be more fun because my overall skiing is much more fluid and smooth. On hardpack and icy runs you can't even compare the old school - carvers bite and give a composed turn rather than slip and slide through the turn.

If legs are aching then with me it was because I was fighting the ski in the turn - I was used to my body (mostly hips pivoting) controlling the ski in the turn rather than letting the ski "carve" the turn and natural instinct is to push the ski through the turn rather than let the ski carve its way through.... spend some time on the gentle slopes getting used to them - heading for the (normally easy) blues and reds will just punish your legs and put you off them.

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saye, it's easier to skid long straights. If skiing slowly enough to want to skid each turn they'd be easier than a ski with a deep sidecut. Carving is more efficient per distance travelled, but does involve maintaining a degree of muscular tone with no respite. Slow skids afford you a period of relaxation between turns to recover.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

In the spirit of pure research... I compared my new 155 Heads (thanks rob@rar.org.uk, snowHead

) to some 185 Volkl P20 SLs (about 1998 vintage) on the plastic last night.

Once I'd got over the length of all that ski on front of me they felt fine, carved OK etc. I had to be much more precise to get them to carve, and had to take a much straighter line.

Was a second slower tho Shocked

, on (for me) a 9 second course..... rolling eyes

Not sure what this adds to the debate Puzzled

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I'll second the Fischer WC SC for an on-piste ice ski.

Let's face it. Making 30 high-g short turns is more tiring than making three long banana turns down the mountain.

I like to mix it up, I turn most of the time, but I do take a few runs at high speed. If you want to build up any real speed, you have to go straight down the fall-line where it's steep.

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saye, I still think a little updating would have you changing your mind. You can slip on carvers - even on slalom ones, just a nice little subtle foot movement, no sweat! Very Happy

SMALLZOOKEEPER, Why would you go straight down? Are you late for work? You just get to the bottom of the mountain too fast and miss out on all that great turning feeling.

We;re beset here with peeps (not sure if they're actually human) who schuss straight down everything, right through everyone trying to turn, right through the poor peeps on lessons trying to learn. They're all leaning back, wobbling like f**k, and horribly dangerous. Shocked

A number of them are on very tiny skis Shocked

I just don't understand why anyone would want to go straight down the mountain except on paths where it woud be dangerous to turn. I can and do assume it's simply because they're not good enough skiers to enjoy turning, which is what it's all about. NehNeh

BTW I tell all the kids this, and when peeps schuss past us the kids go "bad skiers" in disgust - stops them getting dangerous, especially the boys. Laughing

Ghost, I don't agree, if you want to go fast get carving on a big arc - much faster, and feels 200% better than straight-lining it. BTW I can do long banana turns fine on the Fischers - they're extremely obedient I find. Laughing

After all it is free

I don't straight-line the SCs; I keep them slightly on edge (when I'm not cranking out small turns at high edge angles). However , I've done the back to back comparison and carving super big arcs at 60mph on very hard snow with small bumps feels better on 208 Super-G skis than it does on 165 Fischer Worldcup SCs. That's the beauty of skiing, it's an individual sport. Everybody is free to choose their own cup of tea.

Certain skis I've tried recently are cr@p in a straight line, these include the B2's 8000's , Monsters, Elan SFX etc. However, the XL will track straight if you should want it to with no flap at all, you don't even have to be too concerned where your weight is, although I would like to think my weight is in the right sort of place. But, if the tips on your skis are flapping a bit you should just get forward a tad more or better still, edge them ever so slightly so you aren't running dead straight....and the only place you should be doing this anyway is on that 4 o'clock run down when you are absolutley knackered and can't be bothered with turns..

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