The transition from traditional ( 20th century ) to modern ski techniques

A snowHead

On the basis that it is always best to adopt modern techniques of skiing rather than older methods espoused more than a decade ago ( provided these newer techniques are more efficent and effective ) what are differences between the old and the new when account is taken of newer ski design?.

What are we doing wrong?. Are the methods we learned ten or more years ago now obsolete?. Do we have to re-learn it all again?. My view is that if you can ski in control down any slope, perhaps not like an expert, then that is all that matters. The recreational skier, who typically skis for 2-3 weeks a year is happy to be able to get down a mountain safely and efficiently.

Views please!.

A snowHead

It doesn't matter..skis turn on their edge and all you are doing is looking for a way to put them there.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Well, I was described by easiski as an "old-school" skier when she first saw me at LDA last month. By the time she had finished a week's instruction with me, I found I was turning far more crisply on the steep stuff, and I was getting less tired after a long spell. But I'd rather let someone more qualified than me describe the differences.

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hibernia, as Nick Zotov describes, there are ways of being more effective using modern equipment (as I mentioned on the other recent thread). First of all, I'd like to define two terms: efficient and effective. Efficient is doing something using the least amount of energy possible. Effective is doing the right thing efficiently.

Furthermore, there is no "right" or "wrong" in skiing. Each person can ski however they want, and there is no judgement regarding whether or not they are skiing "correctly".

My focus both in my own skiing and in teaching others is to increase each skier's personal effectiveness on snow while maximizing the fun for them.

I'll also say this: the skills are the same. There are, after all, only three things that you can do to a ski when it's attached to your foot! However, the blend and application of the skills has changed with the evolution of equipment. Just as we no longer need to use big upper-body rotation to turn the skis as was done back in the 40s and 50s, we also do not need to use hard edge sets or dramatic unweighting to turn the skis.

I'll post more in a while, but hopefully this gets us thinking a bit...

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Nick Zotov, easiski rocks! And clearly has the same goals for her students that I have for my guests. What were the changes that you made in your skiing under her tutelage?

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JT, to a point, you're right, of course. But, that would be saying that I turn as well as Bode Miller. Somehow, I don't see it that way. Of course, I do not have the same objectives that Bode does, but he's more well-known than my real skiing heros (many of whom have been coaches at the ESA, BTW).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Wear The Fox Hat, I know there's a time and a place for non-carved turns and not a day goes by in my skiing when I certainly need them but when possible, these quotes from ssh to me represent the highest form of skiing:

slikedges, Embarassed

the first of those lines is directly from Bob Barnes (Examiner and Director of Training at Keystone). I agree with you, though. That's high-level skiing!

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slikedges, I agree with you.

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As Nick Zotov said, the steepness of the slope was not noticable when following Easiski. Some of them were very steep. It's nice to be described as a party Cool

Nick's lack of tiredness was obviously due to the excellent resort guide he had in the mornings - even though I havnt got my metal badge yet snowHead

lampbus, I thought we had explained that one to you Toofy Grin

Just 'cos I'm too lazy to put on my specs to read a piste map, doesn't make you a guide Laughing

You know it makes sense.

I've been skiing for 22 years now and whilst I can ski pretty much anything the mountain throws at me, I just couldn't seem to get to grips with those really nice carved GS turns that leave 2 perfect tracks in the snow. So this year I had a 2 hour lesson with a guy called Luca from the 'Sauze Project' (in sauze obviously) with the sole purpose of perfecting carved turns.

Within 30 seconds of the start of the lesson he had pinpointed exactly what I was doing wrong. Firstly he said that I was doing nothing wrong, for someone who was taught to ski well over 10 years ago, but that technique had been completely re-thought with the advent of the 'new' carver skis. The problem is that the old technique of angulation and rotating the upper body down the fall line "locks the hips" and prevents the ski locking into a carve.

The next 1/2 hour of the lesson was spent practicing some basic exercises to get me to unlock my hips which meant pushing my downhill ski and arm forward through the turn. This had the effect of squaring up my body to the direction the skis were travelling and hey presto I could suddenly feel the feedback from the skis as they found a carve. I must admit that this really took some concentration as it is completely counter-intuative to someone taught in the "old school style" as you feel as though you are turning your shoulders up the hill, and pushing your hips away from the hill (which ofcourse you are not, just putting your body in a better position to allow the skis to do their thing) but it did feel strange.
The next 1/2 hour was spent fine tuning body position, forward lean, initiating the turns and the transition from one edge to the next, and the new unweighting techniqe for short turns etc. And then the last hour we just ripped Twisted Evil

, concentrating on the feel of how the skis were behaving so I would know when it felt right and when it was wrong. Luca was very insistent that I got to know these feelings as he said that it is useless trying to do something unless you can tell when you are not getting it right.
That 2 hour lesson has completely revamped my skiing so that I am no longer fighting to get the skis to do what I want them to do, but rather just guiding the skis to do what they want to do naturally. After that high intensity 2 hour lesson I wasn't even out of breath, and had no Lactic acid burn in my legs. It just felt easy!!! Shocked

So hibernia, to sum up and answer your question, if you were taught to ski in the "old school" way, all shoulders down the hill and hip angulation, and you can't quite understand what all the fuss is about with the new carving skis then yes the old technique is obsolete and you need to learn to ski all over again. Get yourselves a few lessons with someone who knows how to use these skis properly. It shouldn't take many, after all you already know how to ski, and the results will amaze you. Shock

If you're quite happy skiing on your new carvers and hadn't thought about why they weren't as great as people had lead you to believe then carry on as you are. Ignorance is bliss Little Angel

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Nick Zotov and Big G, thanks for the personal testimonials. These results are pretty typical in my experience. Interestingly, most skiers coming off traditional technique and without personal coaching on modern equipment also tend to balance on their heels and try to lever the front of their boots, neither of which are effective for these skis.

A snowHead

ssh, Absolutely. & you're too kind!!

hibernia, I would say that one of the biggest differences is in body positioning nowadays - much more relaxed, more natural and with the weight on the front of the foot rather than the heels. The first "down and pole plant" is now surplus to requirements, and while you can extend vertically (not strictly necessary) this is now done much more slowly and gently than the previous explosive hop. We can now edge the ski right at the beginning of the turn and let it run round in it's own time and radius (of course we can change this to suit). Any flexion is much more into the front of the boot (ankles), rather than sitting (knees) - "Bend ze knees" is out.

There are lots of more subtle differences, but I now find that I do a large number of "updating" lessons for good skiers who are finding the modern carving ski rather hard work. this is only because we learnt differently. A 20+ week skier normally only needs one or two sessions to update BTW, so it really doesn't cost that much, as as someone who learnt in the 50s and 60s it's well worth it!!! Very Happy

Nick Zotov, You were obviously listening! Laughing

lampbus, I might find you something for the EOSB! rolling eyes

A snowHead

You could start off by watching slalom skiers just to get in your mind what you are trying to achieve but I haven't had a good couple of ski hols skiwise and think I have gone backwards and am thinkiing I am missing something obvious. I have hated the way I ski on video so might need an update.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

JT, You lost your mojo...I lost mine too Sad

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easiski, one or two sessions - it it two hours or two days - I am now tempted to go on the EOSB 07?. Have not had lessons since Meribel in 1997 - nine years ago and it was all " bend ze knees " then.

BTW I find the extended pole plant a very effective technique in steeper slopes, but as you, and ssh say, things have moved on in the past decde. rolling eyes

( I have 17 weeks skiing BTW ) snowHead

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snowbunny,

Yeah, not sure what it is, really. I'm fine and fast on piste but off-piste I'm not flowing like I want to. I messed about with skis and the snow was quite heavy - well crappy crap really - and I coped ok but I thought it was more hard work than I thought it should be...so I'm perplexed and a little depressed about it really. Sad

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snowbunny,

I think I need a hol' with fellow snowheads really...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

snowbunny,

Or Engelberg...!!! wink

JT, let the tails follow the tips. Especially when the snow gets challenging. Allow them to follow the tips. Allow... Wink

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hibernia, A couple of lessons of around 1.5 - 2 hours should be sufficient. You should definitely come to the EOSB - it's going to be MEGA. Very Happy

JT, ssh, is right, as you have this little tendency to push the heels out. If folowing me I always tell people to keep their skis pointing straight along my tracks!

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easiski, ssh,
A Very interesting few threads. At a personal level I am unable to follow instrutions for physical activities from the written word(Applies to all sports not just skiing).

How widely spread are modern teaching techniques now and how many lessons does a somewhat dodgy skier usually need to get back on track? I have been skiing for around 20 years and have developed a style that gets me down pistes without too much difficulty but little elegance. My 'technique' falls apart with difficult snow (Icy, crusty, steep and narrow). I have had quite a few lessons down the years but virtually none for the last five, as there no longer seemed to be any progression. I have spent most of my hard earned on guiding rather than lessons but am very conscious that in difficult conditions I struggle.

Is modern teaching likely to move me up a level in difficult snow conditions and how long should I have them for? I will be skiing with family and friends (Not strong skiers with little interest in progressing) for the next couple if holidays in Austria and France but will only have limited time for lessons as it is important to ski with them as well.

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T Bar, emphatically yes. Although I've not skiied for as long as you, I too went some time without lessons. Just a couple of hours tuituion (one with David Hughes ? in Flaine, and one with Easiski) leanirng how to use carving skis *properly* has changed my world.

T Bar, the "re-birth" of my skiing took place across one week of ski class. By good fortune I ended up with a very good instructor (he was then Chairman of BASI). It was quite a depressing experience at first, as he said that I had to change just about everything I was doing (many bad habits built up over 15 years of skiing without any instruction after the first couple of weeks). But by the end of the week I had begun to put things back together and felt an immediate change in my ability to ski under control in a wider range of conditions. Since that ski class (about 10 years ago) I've continued with instruction every season, with a mixture of private lessons and ski classes. I've always signed up with good instructors that I know will have a similar approach to "modern" technique. As a result my skiing has been transformed - I'm by no means good, but I am most certainly very much better than I was or ever hoped to be without modern kit and technique to match. Not only has my ski ability been transformed, but during this process I also rediscovered my passion for skiing. I had become a bit disenchanted, not least because of making no progress, and was content with one week's skiing a year. Now I'm obsessed with skiing (again) and very much poorer because one week per year is pitifully inadequate Smile

You know it makes sense.

nbt, rob@rar.org.uk,
Thanks for the feedback, what are the chances of finding someone teaching newer techniques at random in Obertauern? I last went to an Austrian ski school in St Anton we were guided not taught; but by observation not a lot of carving going on on the pistes I was hammering down trying to keep up Shocked

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

T Bar, It might be worth speaking to the ski school in person and asking for lessons with a specific purpose/target. This should then allow them to suggest an instructor who would be suitable. I would hope that any self respecting professional school would then give you what you want. I get the impression that when you ask for private (ie not the standard ski school group) lessons with specific goals in mind then they are a bit more interested.
Also make sure you have an instructor who speaks excellent english (unless you speak their native tongue fluently) and make sure you clearly tell your instructor what you want to achieve at the beginning of the lesson. It is no use allowing the lesson to progress hoping that you will eventually be taught what you want, and then feel hard done by at the end when it doesn't happen. Be pro-active let them know what you expect of them, that way no confusion can arrise and eveybody wins Very Happy

Remember, comunication is everything!!

A snowHead

T Bar, You should be able to find a ski teacher who will get you back on the straight and narrow in any ski school, but you should make sure they know that you want to learn modern technique - that way, as Big G, says, you'll get what you're looking for. Your instructor might be young-ish tough.

Be prepared, as rob@rar.org.uk, says to find that you've got basic faults which may need correcting on very easy slopes - and do the practise!

I do find that there is often a misconception from more experienced skiers that their lessons will be on the type of slope they habitually ski (whatever that is). Not usually - most lessons will be on green or easy blues to hone the skills and then practise later on the reds or whatever. Also, most skiers actually have very basic faults, and when these are corrected move ahead quickly, but if left uncorrected ............... Sad

A snowHead

Big G, easiski,

I will do as suggested and thanks for the suggestions and report back after Obertauern. I might quite like a young instructress who knows Blush

Seriously the age of the teacher doesn't bother me it is their ability to teach me, I am a poor learner of physical skills.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

T Bar, I think you'll find younger instructors will be less biased in retaining the old approaches. This may be why easiski has suggested that. I know in the US, there are many folks who have taught for years who are having a very difficult time transitioning, and many just refuse to do so. Sad, really. There are also, however, quite a number who have taken it on with gusto, and they are amazing! Getting to ski with Weems Westfeldt and Stu Campbell this year shows me just how amazing some skiers and teachers can be. (Check out Weems' new book and more about him at http://www.edgechange.com/ ... Stu has been the instruction editor of SKI magazine in the US for as long as I can remember.)

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Rusty Guy, Unfortunately on our mountain you can see examples of it every day - it's important I think that the potential client understands and asks for the right sort of teacher. I've had a number of clients who've been previously taught in many different countries and have had recent instruction in "down, plant, pop, push". Crying or Very sad

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Interesting thread, this one.

I've skiied a mere 3 weeks (one week in each of the last 3 years) so, even allowing for the fact that I'm not very good, I shouldn't be 'old school' - but I think I am Blush

Even last year one of the instructor's main ideas was, "face down the hill all the time", ie shoulders square to the fall-line. I seem to be traversing most of the time so it's not possible to 'face down the hill' (I'd have to be a contortionist!) but even so..

Easiski has her work cut out with me at ESOB, I fear Embarassed

PS I've not mastered the pole-plant thingy either - appalling sense of timing Embarassed

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Red Leon, Certainly sounds as tho you are being taught "old school"styleeee Confused

Maybe it is some sort of trendy retro thing Very Happy

alas I think you may have fallen into the problems easiski, has been highlighting of old dogs and new tricks Evil or Very Mad

However stick with it and I'm sure she'll sort you out at the EOSB

After all it is free

Red Leon, you'll be OK, on pole plants, I think. easiski didn't seem to go a bundle on them. I think they help timing, and in a moment of kindness, she did let me do a very notioanl pick, provided the emphasis was on her famous "sign-post turns" to stop upper-body rotation. Most old-timers can stop those after a day or 2. But being a died-in-the-wool naturally-uncoordinated old-timer I was still doing them at the end of the week Embarassed

Who cares? They sorted the basic problem very well. I'll probably still be doing them at the EOSB Very Happy

Having read this thread (without completely understanding the technicalities!) I am wondering how to ensure that I am being taught the modern technique. Having only skied twice before Im pretty sure that I have been taught the old method (in Kitzbuhel & Ischgl) Heading to Pas in 2 weeks & going into ski school - what should I look out for. Also why are some ski schools teaching old fashioned techniques?

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The transition from traditional ( 20th century ) to modern ski techniques

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