 Poster: A snowHead
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LOL. People always go crazy over this one!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 8-02-18 5:40; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Glad I've got some beers in.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So what happened when you took them back under their fit guarantee?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Do name sounds like tbe ideal bootfitter for jcosh.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Keith right after a big fight on the boot thread, you sign up and post a big long post like that straight off the bat? you are blatantly a sock puppet and I claim my £5.
| Ke!th wrote: |
| Ski boot fitting is the same is average knowledge of your feet's last and length. Boot fitter is just getting the boots out of the back room for you. |
If (hypothetically this isn't a sockpuppet political post) this is what you experienced then you went to somebody who is not a boot fitter. Fact. But to try and pass this off as being a summary of all ski boot fitters is just utter tripe. To try and pass yourself off as the authority on bootfitters, whilst demonstrating that you weren't even able to select yourself a competent boot fitter, demonstrates that you are no such person to write such authoritative posts and you ought to go back to the drawing board. Basically don't go lecturing the forum on what a bootfitter does just because you can't even find yourself a good one and you're full of bitterness for it.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 7-02-18 23:06; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Only glad I sell very few foam liners and don’t have a fancy scanner 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 7-02-18 21:43; edited 1 time in total
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@Ke!th, curious, have you contacted them to see if they will resolve the issue/s?
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But to give a fuller answer
The narrowest consumer boots on the market are the 97mm and 98mm boots similar to those being suggested by the OP, so when someone’s foot is narrower than this there are limited options, the first being a race boot, these are mostly 92-95mm lasts ( in size 26.5 ) so other than that the options are go with a 97/98mm boot and try and fill the spaces.
You can fill some space using liners and footbeds but it is not always possible to get something as tight around wish as some people would like.
There are times where we won’t sell a boot, I will send someone away without a boot for various reasons such as we don’t have a suitable boot for foot shape/ width / flex etc or if we see someone with what we call the holy trinity of screwed up feet ( wide high instep and lack of flexion ) then we may suggest a dale boot
At this time of year it is more common than in the mid season as stocks run down, but I would rather be left with something than sell it and it not be as close as we could get it. It is never the intention of a fitter to sell a boot that isn’t going to work, not good for the fitter the customer or skiing in general, it is all about getting the best boot for the skiers needs, foot, ability etc. Now as we know it is not 100% fool proof it would be a perfect world if it was, but the human factor and biomechanics and tolerance comes into play
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@CEM,
Well, neither me or any of my friends will return to your establishment until you have a top of the range scanner.
Also, it is my understanding that a Double Diamond (black or otherwise) works wonders. That shows my age.
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@Ke!th, so have you been back to the shop and complained to the owner yet?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| HammondR wrote: |
@CEM,
Well, neither me or any of my friends will return to your establishment until you have a top of the range scanner. |
Could be a long wait 
Having had a good play with several of them at a trade show a couple of weeks back, right now I am going to stick with the mark 1 human eye ball
Whilst the measurement information they can give us fantastic, the database of boots is somewhat lacking right now, as it is a scan of the inside of the shell and the “ make an allowance” for the liner results have been interesting to say the least.
They will become widespread that we know, but they are still early in their development
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ke!th wrote: |
First thing they have me do at the shop is have me fill in a form that I will pay for products where they have a solution for me or not. FIRST RED FLAG. However I am still open so sign.
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So you go into a shop to try on some boots and they make you sign a document to say you MUST buy something from them even if you dont want it. I don't know of any shop that does this. There may be some but I'd just walk away.
My Boot fitter sold me some Lange XT for my narrow heel. He said. COme back anytime in the next year for a free tweak. I came back over a year and he tweaked them. I was charged but I expected that. People don't work for nothing. It was out of the freew-tweak warranty period. Just like my companies kit. Out of warranty/Ts&Cs, no problem but it is a fee of $250.
So you have not come back on here and said who they were, only slagging off the kit. Could you be a shop owner whos' nearest competitor has one of these. 2 posts 40 mins appart. One LOL and one big rant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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interesting, the opening post has been edited back to nothing, me thinks something is a bit strange about the claims made and the OP didn't like the responses
reminds me always quote an opening post when it sounds a bit too suspicious
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My guess is that this is someone based in the States or Canada and completely unrelated to any other boot fitting saga going on at present. @CEM, is the approach to the financial side of having boots fitted the same across the pond?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The original post which subsequent deletion obviously now exposes as a huge troll referenced a business model somewhat clise to Surefoot. That has its fans snd others who wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@sugarmoma666, broadly speaking yes, a few years back it as $1 a minute, it has since gone up in most good places
@Dave of the Marmottes, maybe maybe not, i am going to go with not, but very strange all the same
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| .. subsequent deletion ... |
Clearly not acting with much integrity there, then 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@CEM, well, on the mornings I have been to your place I never got near your fridge. So no scanner or fridge for me. Just boots, liners, footbeds and whatnot. I don't know why I bothered.
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@HammondR,
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on the mornings I have been to your place I never got near your fridge
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Me neither. It had been much hyped on this forum, so I felt quite deprived. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hurtle, me neither
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fridge is open from 12.00 its a help your self type deal, no need to ask
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| CEM wrote: |
interesting, the opening post has been edited back to nothing, me thinks something is a bit strange about the claims made and the OP didn't like the responses
reminds me always quote an opening post when it sounds a bit too suspicious |
see my response.
I'm 99.9% sure that the OP was a sock puppet account of another forum user, posting with an axe to grind. Got no bites so deleted his post and disappeared. £5 says we don't see any more posts from Keith.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dp wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
interesting, the opening post has been edited back to nothing, me thinks something is a bit strange about the claims made and the OP didn't like the responses
reminds me always quote an opening post when it sounds a bit too suspicious |
see my response.
I'm 99.9% sure that the OP was a sock puppet account of another forum user, posting with an axe to grind. Got no bites so deleted his post and disappeared. £5 says we don't see any more posts from Keith. |
Agree, but who and why? Does make you wonder
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| Quote: |
Let's not forget, your (local) bootfitter is hired by the shop to make money. When they do all the measurements, they are going through all the motions that are done by 90% of bootfitters out there. The shell fit, the measuring of length and width (last). Are these specialized skills? or ultimately is this to narrow down what they have in stock will suit your foot, not the other way around (which boot, whether they stock it or not is best for you)?
I learnt this the hardway. I have a very narrow foot that is super low volume. My feet are Left: 282mm and 286mm and I struggle to get a good fit for an all-mountain boot because my width (last) is probably a 94-95.
So what does the boot fitter always recommend? He checks his list and notes the Lange RX has a last of 97mm and has some others at 98mm. Every boot fitter comes out with the same products. Fair enough, choice is limited when you have feet like mine. However some pretend to have solutions and charge a HIGH premium with this. I got suckered in.
Here is the story.
I read reviews that this shop does wonderful work at scanning feet and doing modifications for skiers with narrow feet. I am sold and go check out the shop for my booked appointment slot.
First thing they have me do at the shop is have me fill in a form that I will pay for products where they have a solution for me or not. FIRST RED FLAG. However I am still open so sign.
We go through the usual skiier questionnaire and I tell him I am advanced skiier who goes for double and single black diamonds and searching for powder. Okay, we then head into some measurements and some expensive scanning machines (even showing where weight distribution is). I am rather impressed with fancy computers but proof is in the pudding.
Then the moment comes and like groundhog dog, the bootfitter comes out with the usual Lange RX LV boots, Atomic Hawx Ultra but throws in the spanner/monkey wrench by bringing out some race boots. I ask him why race boots given I don't spend much time on groomers. He said it was to check if I liked them (they were a 130 flex and 97mm last). All this information I already know and went in knowing that Atomix Hawx Ultra had the best fit for me out of boots on market. Lange RX have too high of an instep despite the LV 97mm sticker.
So boom, I am hit with the first hidden payment, I MUST PAY FOR NEW INSOLES / FOOTBEDs. This was super expensive and must be how they make their money. I could of used my old ones. I had no choice I signed the papers. Okay, I can stomach that as I was getting a new boot. They were SIDAS insoles (https://www.sidas.com) and not much different from my existing. Nothing to write home about or rave about.
Fine, I go forward with the insoles whilst explaining that boots have the best fit when compared to others on the market but STRESS they still feel like I am "swimming" in the forefoot. Obviously, with the buckles I can crank them down to get a tight fit. Everyone has seen how expensive these boots are so if you are willing to pay you want the best fit possible. That was my goal.
The bootfitters suggestion?
He recommends SIDAS Foam Injected Race Liner (https://www.sidas.com/en/products/181-classic-pu-race.html). He states "This will help remove the gaps in forefoot and make the boots fit better". I have not tried these so I was open and convinced by footfitters background and company representative background, I tell him I am willing to try. He foam injects them and does all the work. After he finishes it, you can see he wants to move on to next customer but I complain, that the liners feel EVEN LOOSER than the Atomic liners and am not happy. He then states with a poker face "They will tighten up over the next 24 hours". Well, what can I do, only thing I can do is believe him.
Fast forward 48 hours.
The Sidas liners dont' tighten up. They have enough room for me and a couple fish to go swimming in. I am annoyed. Then I go skiing on them and they are like Chinese torture devices. Seriously uncomfortable and painful. What's worse, they are dangerous because they feel loose and therefore I am lacking my usual confidence. My only solution is skiing with the original Atomic Hawx Ultra liners which have done well for 6 ski days this year. I basically should just throw out the SIDAS liners. I will never buy their products again.
Lesson of the Story
Whilst bootfitters can come up with God like status to some skiiers, remember to go in with scepticism as at the end of the day, they are their to sell you something they have in stock. What really annoys me about this situation is that I was lied to. when you pay for a premium service and they are deceitful thats when I have a problem. Feeling cheated never leaves a good impression.
Compare this when the last time you bought a pair of everyday shoes. You went tried on a couple pairs and you picked the one that fit best and also you liked the best. Probably the shoe salesman got the shoes from the backroom? Were they god-like for just finding the shoes for you? Ski boot fitting is the same is average knowledge of your feet's last and length. Boot fitter is just getting the boots out of the back room for you. Making the footbeds may take some knowledge but I am sure a day's training and I could be making them.
So sharing this with you all, just make sure you have healthy scepticism when at bootfitters for new boots like you would purchasing a car (new or used) especially when charged premium service fees or require you to purchase extras.
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Good old google cache, happy to delete this if it just needs to die....
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You know it makes sense.
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@Ke!th,
Head Raptor. Available in various flexes. Option of 93 or 96mm last (Last width relates to a 26.5, so boot would be approx 97 or 100mm wide in a 28.5).
You might be able to get Head Raptor Overkill Vibram soles to put on them as a spare part from a Head dealer. Find somebody to router the toes and heels back to DIN standard height and... you have a pair of narrow 'all mountain' boots.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Oceanic wrote: |
| @Ke!th Find somebody to router the toes and heels back to DIN standard height and... you have a pair of narrow 'all mountain' boots. |
He don’t like boot fitters so I guess he is stuffed, and didn’t want “race” boots either oh well
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Poster: A snowHead
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My feet are of a similar size
Touring boots = Dynafit TLT6 Performance Carbon with intution liners (stock liners from womens Scarpa touring boots, Gea I think).
Alpine Boots = Head Raptor 140 RS (96mm width?) with moulded liners. Went to a boot fitter who moulds hundreds of race boots every year for the budding hobby racers from the Vienna area. Had to travel 90 mins each way and could only get an appointment in the summer (winter was reserved for the ski racers).
Happy with both sets of boots, they cost around €800 a set.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@DB, that’s the thing, as you have found out just having race written on the side of the boot doesn’t mean pain
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@DB,
That's interesting, reason I've been looking at Raptors is that Mrs Oceanic loves the narrow fit of her (1st generation) TLT6s and we've been on the look out for an Alpine Boot with a similar fit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Oceanic wrote: |
@DB,
That's interesting, reason I've been looking at Raptors is that Mrs Oceanic loves the narrow fit of her (1st generation) TLT6s and we've been on the look out for an Alpine boot with a similar fit. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's like anything about which you are passionate: you can keep going in search of perfection ( which you may never find ) or accept what you have.
Even if you have the spanlgy new Oojy-Koozie 3000s, which fit you perfectly, there's a little bit of you thinking : "I bet there's something better".
I have done 12 weeks in hire boots, four hundred days in my own ski boots, and a few hundred in snowboard boots (bought online).
Each time I bought the ski boot I tried a few pairs, but just went for the stock one in the range that fitted best, without any customisation.
When I was younger it was 4-clip, then back-entry boots, then a rock hard race boot with an injection moulded lower half, and as I matured, a high end leisure boot with adjustable flex and cant.
I accept that they could be made to fit me "even better", but all the time that they are not excruciatingly painful, and that I am not racing in the Old-Codgers Super-G - then I am happy to use them out of the box.
Getting fitter and a few lessons will probably have a more significant impact on my performance than a new custom footbed and liner.
I appreciate that a better fitting boot is a marginal gain that I could "aggregate" along with summer glacier training, daily ski waxing, and asthma medication, so I can see the appeal if you're into that kinda thing.
It's really interesting to learn from all the expert knowledge about this, and the number of people who have the disposable income and appetite to chase this until the rainbow's end - and fair play to them.
Like any service, there are is a huge range of service providers from those who are deeply passionate to those who are outright charlatans.
No shop should send you out into the wild in something wholly inappropriate, but the degree to which what they sell you matches your needs will vary according to where they are on the above scale on any given day.
This forum I am happy to say seems to have the passionate experts, but we should acknowledge that even though that may represent the majority of the industry, there are going to be those that do lack this degree of integrity.
So whilst the thread is titled rhetorically - caveat emptor my friends.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Like buying a suit some people are a "normal fit" and can get away with buying stuff off the peg, others need to be fitted.
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My feet with narrow heels always need a little work. My local shop is great though, even carries out tweaks on boots free of charge 4 years down the line, but I have bought a fair amount of stuff from them, am due my 3rd foam liner soon.
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FAQ
