Agree, tragic.
Wondered exactly where the Couloir Chapeau is?
The far skiers left side of the lavancher bowl, nips over the ridge and goes down a gully to the village of lavencher.
High up is possible to find yourself above some cliffs, lower down in current conditions it could have been refrozen rain affected hard snow, but I have no idea where the accident happened.
Tragic.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
It is amazing how many deaths are recorded on the Mont Blanc massif every year. I've seen figures of about 100 annually -- most are climbers, not sure if it includes skiers. But that is an amazing number and should give anyone pause if you're going off piste w/out a guide.
I do not know this area. Because of this I would NOT go in there without a guide. These guys are local experts. Even they have to discuss route options and micro-routing. If the guys who died were 'following tracks' then regretfully an elementary rule was broken. They are from around where my family lives. No mention of names yet, understandably.
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Very sad.
Peds posted this on TGR, which shows what the couloir is like and the cliff at the end.
Quote:
Very sad news indeed.
Apparently they were two holidaymakers, a 25 and a 30 year old. Conditions would most certainly not have been good in it yesterday, being relatively low and south facing it was heavily freeze-thawed, with other people's tracks rutting it out from previous descents, and almost certainly a polished slide path lower down in the couloir with bare ice and rocks.
Plainly visible from town center. A few hundred meters long, mostly 35 degrees, never more than 40, a couple of icy choke points halfway down. It is necessary to traverse skiers left onto a summer walking trail because the couloir finishes out over this cliff:
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@clarky999, ....clarky does your contact know if they completed the couloir and fell on the cliff at the bottom? Reports suggested that they fell on the entrance to the run proper and then died falling down the coulior. The surface in many places at the moment is treacherous at present - the rain has produced a surface on which it is very difficult to arrest.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 29-01-18 12:36; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@valais2, my expectation is going to be that they fell and couldn't arrest.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@under a new name, ...yes, sounds very likely. Are you in Cham or Geneve right now? Have you got any intell on the nature of the surface predominating on that side of the valley at present? I am heading out with kids for half term and bearing in mind the recent air-bourne avalanche which hit Saas Fee I am considering asking my kids to wear transceivers on piste and be banned from ANY off piste. Sounds extreme but I have seen avalanches riding air and then travelling several km more than anyone expects.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
@valais2, my expectation is going to be that they fell and couldn't arrest.
seems likely. In one way it doesn't seem steep enough but then I remember how far I once slid on a refrozen black run when absolutely nothing would dig in. I only stopped when the piste leveled out. Totally conceivable that they slid all the way down and over the rock band
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@valais2,
Funnily enough the avalanche risk in Les Contamines (just FYI) is down to 2 yet they still haven't got the top lifts open. Suspect this means that the risk is varying a lot with altitude - lower slopes now very consolidated but the deeper snow pack higher up more suspect.
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Poster: A snowHead
@jedster, ...your experience is interesting. I once started a first run of the day down a black, which was pristine cordouroy, but rock hard, and three turns in I saw the reality of the run...if you screwed up, nothing would stop you sliding. The piste was a straight 40 degree slope directly down for maybe 800m, turned slightly left to join the main red, and at the junction was a huge rock promontory sticking out of the hill. It was that which you would pile into, travelling fast. What started as a idle 'let's do that' turned into an objective danger in an instant...it focussed the mind, and the whole run became a 'no fall' area. Notably, that piste is not created any more in resort.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@valais2, we were in PdS at the weekend. Saturday anything off piste was more or less just hard pack. Sunday after around 11h30 south facing slopes were getting rather lovely transformations in.
General avalanche risk was 2, which I have rarely seen.
No idea about the Valais I'm afraid...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@jedster, ...6.75 metres at 3000 where we are, usually 2.5 metres. Several unconsolidated layers. Agree with you....Very unstable situation in all sorts of ways.
@under a new name, ...thanks, fine on Valais intell - currently in UK but in touch with locals - was wondering about Chamonix, Argentieres etc...is that covered in your last post? Thanks
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@valais2, no, haven’t been in Cham in a couple of weeks. Wouldn’t expect it wildly different except higher up.
@under a new name, ...indeed, I guess that's right, very widespread conditions. But as we know, it's conditions on the day, right there, right then, which should guide action and judgement....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I once started a first run of the day down a black, which was pristine cordouroy, but rock hard, and three turns in I saw the reality of the run...if you screwed up, nothing would stop you sliding.
Exactly the conditions I slid on. In my case it was nothing like 40 degrees - was the steep section of Trolls above Tignes - 30-35 degrees I'd guess.
It was gentler above and I was carving around on an empty piste. I came across the roll over at the start of the steep section a bit quick and my skis were almost parallel to the frozen corduroy, I skidded slightly and the corrugations chattered my ski off. Just accelerated away and lost my other ski and poles in trying to dig stuff in to self arrest. Went a LONG way - fortunately nothing to hit.
After all it is free
After all it is free
On Saturday, generally speaking for the Northern French Alps, it was powder on an ice crust below 2000 meters but I don't think it snowed much in Chamonix on Friday night.
There was and is a risk of purges and I saw a few where I am, one of which narrowly missed some skiers. Saturday was maybe not somewhere to be skiing avalanche couloirs but assuming the Chapeau was skied out Saturday it would have been chopped up refrozen snow on Sunday morning.
It was probably still frozen at 11h30 when the accident happened but may have transformed a bit later depending on a number of factors.
Conditions on south facing slopes are "spring like" today but things change from day to day. The ice crust from the rain has largely transformed.
However imagining that you are going to be able to easily self arrest on 35 degree + slope is illusory, even on hard grippy snow. That is way over the steepness of black runs, most of which top out at 30 degrees and generally average in the low 20s.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 29-01-18 14:24; edited 1 time in total
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valais2 wrote:
@clarky999, ....clarky does your contact know if they completed the couloir and fell on the cliff at the bottom? Reports suggested that they fell on the entrance to the run proper and then died falling down the coulior. The surface in many places at the moment is treacherous at present - the rain has produced a surface on which it is very difficult to arrest.
No idea, sorry - the above is just what he posted on the TGR forums.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 29-01-18 14:15; edited 1 time in total
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its rumoured they weren't on holiday, there were three of them all linked to inghams. the 3rd guy that made it out was the local rep i believe.
could be wrong of course, at the moment its a bit "they say". parents and family arrived this morning.
very sad.
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@davidof,
Quote:
imagining that you are going to be able to easily self arrest on 35 degree + slope is illusory
Yep. Huge sympathy to the families, and not intending to sound at all critical, and very easy to comment in hindsight and at a distance but not somewhere I think I'd have wanted to be at the time, in the conditions.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I can only imagine how scary this must be as it was happening to them.
Thoughts with the families
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@valais2,
I was in Argentiere at the weekend (albeit missed this tragic event, was mainly on the other side of the mountain off the top lift). Friday night we had a few cm of snow if that. Avi risk 2 on Sunday, even at top.
My conditions summary (as ever, aspect and angle dependent, these are generalisations):
2600-3300m - (top lift) reasonable powder. Grand Mur was in really nice condition, main face also lovely till top of Herse
2300-2600m - (top half of Herse and Bochard, Lavancher bowl, combe secrete, triangle) still enjoyable off piste but occasional icier bits and lots of wind-crust on more exposed slopes. If you picked your line it was great skiing.
2000-2300m - hard work, but ok where skied already or in dips/gullies where it was softer.
1700-2000m - (e.g. variante hotel) only skiable where it's previously been flattened down by other people or where it's totally pristine and you can ski the ice crust.
<1700m - fuggedaboutit
Re transceivers for kids on piste - are they a bit young to teach them risk homeostasis?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@valais2, just back on your Saas-Fee question, would they open the pistes if there was any reasonable doubt about on piste safety?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@snowdave, ...I wouldn't let them out and about by themselves at all in these conditions. They are allowed (12 and 14) to be on piste together or with (some carefully nominated) friends, and never allowed off piste without adult or guide. They have been trained to understand that even in sun you could be 1m off the piste, down a bank in deep snow, and never found if you have hurtled off without being seen. Alarmist? No...realistic. Remember tree wells. And two years' ago a six-year old died at Saas Fee and an instructor was engulfed but survived ON PISTE when an avalanche was triggered way above them and ran on air to the piste. It was very upsetting for the village. This week an avalanche - powder cloud and seems well dispersed, but still a scary reminder - reached the town itself. Where we are, we ski resorts where things which happen high can come down onto the piste (Col Du Pochet a notable example). Both kids have spent time in avalanche training. I am considering, but only considering, transceivers and a shovel at all times. I am trying not to be over dramatic, but I have seen quite a few incidents in the high hills which give pause for thought....
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@under a new name, ...in the last few years I have a number of avalanches which have run onto pistes...goodness knows if anyone knows the risk zones this year. The folk lore and knowledge which builds up is vital and the last time anyone remembers a year like this was 1999. None of the current avi control people I know were working then....Flavian would know, he's just retired at nearly 80. But he's not running the avi control....
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@valais2, It's like the old saying "It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"
There's no negative to your kids being trained in avalanche safety and having the equipment to survive should something freak happen on piste, and hopefully they never have to use it!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@jedster, Same in Tignes and Val D'Isere but the top lifts are not open because they were buried in snow (Cugnai opened yesterday), they were broken in the storms (Grande Motte CC still closed, 'Up and Over' opened yesterday or are still buried - 2 or 3 pomas in the area.
Col des Ves opened at lunchtime today (and associated off pite routes) for the 1st time this season and was fabulous.
Some years ago, I was on a lift in one of the La Plagne villages (Becoin in Plagne Aime 2000 I think) watching the kids' ski club enjoying the off piste beneath us when the slope released and carried away several kids. Not a very nice time - nothing we could do from the lift itself, though we did see the first secouristes arrive with shovels before we passed the crown. As indicated above, you don't need to be far away from the piste to be in danger
you don't need to be far away from the piste to be in danger
No. But 99.999% of the time, I don't think you need to be fretting about on piste avvy danger...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Very bad news ... has anyone heard anything of the British skier who went missing in tignes in early Jan this year . I've been searching the web and can't find any news feeds past mid January .. He s from our area .
After all it is free
After all it is free
Markab1971 wrote:
Very bad news ... has anyone heard anything of the British skier who went missing in tignes in early Jan this year . I've been searching the web and can't find any news feeds past mid January .. He s from our area .
Take a look in May.
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