 Poster: A snowHead
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Major gear dilemma happening over here, so please bear with me for the endless questions...
New big skis are on the list. I'm going to be skiing all over, including Japan, New Zealand and Europe, and have a current shortlist of:
- Line Mordecai
- K2 Pettitor 120
- Black Crows Nocta Air
I've skied the Mordecai and the K2 Pettitor in Japan, and loved both, and also fondled at extreme length the Nocta. Couldn't get on with Armada Magic J or JJ 2.0. Here comes the kicker - this is a ski I also want to use for touring duties, and as such leaning very much towards the Kingpin. Touring will be 30%; some longer hut to hut tours, and some day tours... Also keen to just have the ability to skin up if I see some fun features. I've seen all of these skis mounted with tech/tour bindings, and know they're a trifle big for traditional touring skis but also know that I'm very physically strong and fit so don't mind the extra weight penalty a bigger ski gives me touring. I'm unwilling however to have the extra 1.5 - 2kg that a Tour 12 binding/Baron gives me!
BUT - are they too big? Would I get annoyed skiing a Kingpin in resort? Am I shooting myself in the foot by trying to have a big ski that can do big mountain descents, hit the side country and be a resort pow ski all at once?
I'd put myself as a playful charger; I like to go fast, but also hit as many natural features as possible and love to ski a lot of trees in Japan.
Any help?! I'm confused....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've got the Pettitor 120 and it's my "go to" ski here in Serre Chevalier, it absolutely rocks for me as an all-round ski, obviously fantastic in powder, turny in the trees, lands jumps well and still ok on-piste. Wouldn't fancy using them on hut to hut but that's your choice.....
Kingpin is no more fiddly than any other tech binding and I've skied all week on my Dynafit Beasts doing resort powder with zero issues
Don't know what you can get the Pettitors for over there, but I paid €300 for mine from Sportconrad, don't know how much to ship to Singapore, worth a look!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks mate! Pettitors were special in pow. Few times I was on piste they were still pretty good. I can alway do the cheeky option and get them shipped to the UK and then passed on to avoid the Singapore import charges.
The hut-hut thing is what I'm wondering most about. It wouldn't be the most common use for them, admittedly.. And whether on not I'm just being uber ambitious to try and get a ski that does EVERYTHING I want it to... Quiver-Killers on a pair of Pettitors and a pair of touring skis?
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I've done a fair bit of touring on big skis - Grand Paradiso (over 4000m) on DPS Lotus 120s last year, toured on EHPs at 116mm for a while, now on Down SD115s (with Kingpins). I also ski wide skis all the time, so guess I'm in a pretty good position to answer...
Out of those skis get the Nocta - but wait for next years. I skied it fairly extensively last season (the 185), and Black Crows have made exactly the changes that I would have made. Next year's comes in a 190, with full rocker, and a bigger turn radius. I've only fondled it at ISPO, but I think it's gonna rad and one of the top powder skis for next season.
However touring on skis that wide kinda sucks. It's fine in powder (and you'd have no issues in Japan), but sidehilling on firm snow (if you're chasing corn and spring snow etc) sucks. You'll probably need to use ski crampons a fair bit, particularly in NZ and EU, and that really makes skinning much harder work than otherwise. Personally I think around 115mm is the sweetspot for freeride touring. Love both my EHPs and the SD115s. Both very straight with very subtle rocker, so there's always a lot of edge in contact with the snow, but which also gives a totally unique 'frictionless' feel in powder. I won't give up my super fats for them for resort days... But sometimes it's hard to choose.  But seriously for longer tours and hut trips, 120m+ really is overkill and not sensible.
I only have two days on the Kingpins. They're a big big improvement over my old Dynafits, but I still prefer alpine bindings for resort skiing, especially when the snow is firm or cruddy. I think the Beast 16 is the only tech option that you could really ski 100% inbounds, but then you'd have to deal with the dumb no flat touring mode and ridiculous price.
I'd say get a solid tech binding and an alpine binding quiver killered on the ski so you can swap between them. That again rules out the Beast due to the extra heel fitting you need.
I think you could pair that with a ski like the 4FRNT Hoji to maximise tour ability, chargeability, play/pivotability, and float.
I will also say that Down Skis are bringing out a super light 120mm subtle full rocker powder touring ski for next season...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| ....I only have two days on the Kingpins. They're a big big improvement over my old Dynafits, but I still prefer alpine bindings for resort skiing, especially when the snow is firm or cruddy......... |
That's 'cause the Kingpin has a fixed toe. Rotary toe of the Dynafit fixes that.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| ....I think the Beast 16 is the only tech option that you could really ski 100% inbounds, but then you'd have to deal with the dumb no flat touring mode and ridiculous price..... |
The extra weight/cost of the Beast 16 is not worth it v the Beast 14 which is only a bit dearer than the Kingpin. Absolutely no problem skiing the Beast 14 inbounds. It doesn't have a pucka flat walk mode but its delta is less to start with & for most users it's not an issue. If it is then Beast brakes can be rubber banded up & the heel rotated if doing a longer flat section.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| ....I'd say get a solid tech binding and an alpine binding quiver killered on the ski so you can swap between them. That again rules out the Beast due to the extra heel fitting you need.... |
You can still most alpine bindings with the Beast power insert installed. It adds 1mm to the bsl so you just need to adjust the forward pressure accordingly.
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@spyderjon, interesting about the last point - I didn't realise that.
I do feel that heel of the Kingpin makes a big difference too though, especially on slash turns. Just feel much better connected to the ski.
Even with the fixed toe they're still a lot damper and much less jarring than the trad Dynafits.
Beast toe and Kingpin heel could be a great combo!
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Sounding like a scratched record as this has come up in the past, as I've said before I think it very depends on what level of touring you're doing, as well as technicality of both ascent and descent, as well as obviously snow pack condition, spring vs powder and boot choice!
This season I've been touring on 110 Scott Cascades 183 with Guardian bindings, Scott Powdairs 183 100mm with Vipecs and Black Diamond Aspects 176 90mm with TLT's and now two excursions mounted with ST 2.0s.
After having the ST 2.0s mounted on Sat I deliberately skied deep fresh powder on them the next day (lift access) when normally I would have taken my 110s - this was in part due to me wanting to try out the new setup in advance of a technical tour yesterday, one where I knew there would be deep powder to be skied.
I'm now skiing the 90s without too many issues and really like skiing the smaller ski as well as finding the uphill getting better. Not that I count how many kick turns I do but yesterday was technical at around 35 - 40% in a forest with maybe 30 - 40 kick turns in deep fluffy powder, so difficult but with the smaller ski so much easier.
Fat skis in icy hard morning spring snow with crampons is not going to be a lot of fun on long traverses, throw in only a couple of kick turns and you'll be fecked unless you have good climbing skills.
That said, was skiing La Grave today and FatSkis a plenty mounted with tech bindings, though they were all skinning up the glacier so was not exactly technical (top drag was shut), but part of me can't help thinking, and I said this to KenX before I read this thread, is the FatSki tech binding more for look than practicality?
The Frenchies I tour with from my local club are all on skis around 90mm and by feck can they climb, though has to be said they have their own style on the descents, but I don't think that's down to the ski just old school.
If it was me, and a one ski quiver, then Beast / KingPin and something around 95-100 and the stiffer MTN LAB boot (I use the lighter softer Explorer) - quite a few wearing them today.
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@Weathercam, if the OP is looking to ski Japan a lot, then 95-100mm would probably be too narrow with the very light, deep snow they have there? I went heliskiing about 15 years ago in the Monashees and they wouldn't let me use my 95mm skis, made me rent some fatboys and even then I was up to my neck in it!
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@Weathercam, interesting. Based mainly on comments in Bobinch's requests for info threads from yourself and others I was looking to do just as you suggest. Although I was going to use my existing 112 Lahsa's.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| You can still most alpine bindings with the Beast power insert installed. It adds 1mm to the bsl so you just need to adjust the forward pressure accordingly. |
This changes everything! Means I can test skis again.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've got the beasts and love them. FWIW my everyday ski is the Down CD114 (with Beasts) and it does most things ok but deep pow and chop very well. I have toured on them as well and well, if it's on powder, it's all good but nor so much fun when it gets steep/ technical.
My only whinge about the Beasts is they are a pain in the back bottom to get off on steep slopes if you're about to boot pack or looking for a buried backpack ( I did try and bury my friend but he insisted on just the backpack). I'm sure there is a trick I'm missing here. Or not.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
| You can still most alpine bindings with the Beast power insert installed. It adds 1mm to the bsl so you just need to adjust the forward pressure accordingly. |
This changes everything! Means I can test skis again. |
I'll qualify that statement. So long as your boot soles are compliant with the binding then the power insert shouldn't make a difference other than to the forward pressure as stated above. To work with some heels you might need to grind off the little bit of metal on each side of the power insert (where the lateral fixing screws are located) that protrudes slightly over the top edge of the boot lug. I've used the power inserts in all of the Marker Tour bindings plus the Jester/Griffin/Lord & Squire bindings plus all the other common tech bindings on the market.
Just test the fit at the heel first.
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| joe1890 wrote: |
I've seen all of these skis mounted with tech/tour bindings, and know they're a trifle big for traditional touring skis but also know that I'm very physically strong and fit so don't mind the extra weight penalty a bigger ski gives me touring. I'm unwilling however to have the extra 1.5 - 2kg that a Tour 12 binding/Baron gives me!
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A Tour F12 is only 300g per binding heavier than a Kingpin, and about the same weight as a Beast 16. Unless you're going to be touring more than half the time I'd put a frame binding on a big ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Steve77 problem is regardless of the weight, frame bindings just suck to skin with. You have to actually lift all the weight every step, and the pivot point isn't as natural.
They're great if you're only skinning an hour to a line, but as the OP wants to do hut to hut touring...
Sounds like the answer is either Beast 16, or two pairs of skis, or quiver killer the ski for Rad 2s and Salomon Wardens/etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks for the responses... Sounding more and more likely that the one/two hut to hut tours I do I'd be better off renting a pair of lighter touring specific skis (to have a set up just for one/two weeks of hut-hut tour seems a bit excessive, even with the n+1 rule) and then mounting up an alpine binding and a kingpin/beast/tour 12 with QK's on the new fat ski set up.
Reckon that way I'd have the best of both worlds; ability to hike and skin shorter tours on big skis in Japan and then use lighter smaller skis for hut-hut and longer tour trips.
Alternatively, what opinions do people have of hut-hut tours on a pair of OG WhiteDot Directors? They're already QK'd by Spyderjon for Griffons, could QK for tech bindings also?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@joe1890, the Directors would certainly be more appropriate than the Lotus120s I mentioned above! Only issue might be the amount of tail rocker, particularly on the older generation, while skinning on hard snow. But take some ski crampons just in case and they should work well!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 18-02-16 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@clarky999, do you know what changes are being made to Corvus for 2017 that are worth waiting for?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Johnny da Groomer, no sorry. Not actually sure there are any changes other than graphics - it was really the Noctas that really stood out at ISPO (Anima stays the same other than new graphics). But Black Crows will be at the UK Industry Ski Test thingy next week in Kuhtai, so I'll try and find out for you!
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90-100mm skis with pin bindings covers most touring options.
of course you wont win any ski-mo races on them.
.... but still fun to ski in the powder and light enough for longer 1500m days or even multi-day tours.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@clarky999, when you at Kuhtai - we're going Mon for three days - PM me - be interesting to see if touring is still the big thing like it was last year - and then a % of the media & some retailers based their reviews on a couple of hours touring up a non technical climb 
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@Weathercam, I'll be there Sun Mon and Tues. BTW quick warning - I was up there last weekend, there was a LOT of recent avalanche activity, and there is a very persistent and pretty trigger-prone weak layer, that is worse above 2000m and in the more inner alpine regions - so exactly like Kuhtai. So I wouldn't hope to for any interesting terrain! Looks like there should be some fresh snow Monday and Tuesday though.
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Ah, I'm not worried about winning any ski-mo races. Or even attempting a ski-mo race... I'm far far more interested in the down! Just perfectly willing to earn the turns.
So how does this sound to those more experienced than I:
- Mount the WhiteDot Directors with a tech binding, be it a Beast or Kingpin (QK'd for ease of use inbounds)
- Buy my fat skis and QK for both existing Marker Griffons and tech binding
That'd leave me with a 3 ski quiver of a 88mm Coreupt ODB, WhiteDot Director and a yet to be confirmed pow ski (but heavily leaning on the K2 Pettitor - don't think I've ever had as much fun on skis as these in pow). Should cover me for most bases?!
Longer/harder tours on WhiteDots, Japan hour hikes and inbounds on the fats and Coreupts for inbound looning around....
Thoughts?
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@joe1890, sounds pretty solid! But honestly if you're waiting for next season... Next season's BC Nocta's are gonna be epic.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I know.... They did look beautiful. But hard to go for skis that I haven't ridden over ones that I know I already have lots of fun on! Crows are beautiful skis though, which sways me back the other way!
No votes for the Mordecai?
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@clarky999,
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@Johnny da Groomer, no sorry. Not actually sure there are any changes other than graphics - it was really the Noctas that really stood out at ISPO (Anima stays the same other than new graphics). But Black Crows will be at the UK Industry Ski Test thingy next week in Kuhtai, so I'll try and find out for you!
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Thanks. Have you skied the Corvus? Do you reckon they would be too heavy to mount with F12 bindings (just for multi hour/short day tours)? I have considered the Freebird version but I understand their flex is considerably softer so I'm worried about the compromise in variable and hard snow conditions
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Had an interesting day testing touring skis today at the SIGB test here in Kuhtai - only tested four - but I was skining up as well unlike anyone else
Totally shite conditions but one ski did stand out - report laters............
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@joe1890, I'd second what @clarky999 says, having just returned from Japan skiing on 114mm waisted skis and tech bindings. I was in a similar position to you a few months back and the Mordecais were on the list. I went with Down CD114s for the shape and their relatively low weight; I'll be using them for touring too. I also own a pair of Powd'airs with Dynafits for offpisteskiing-related trips ( ) and the Downs whoop their ass in good snow; significantly more damp and you can properly charge large turns. I haven't ridden on a frame/alpine binding for 4 years and I'm still in one piece having skied in and out of bounds. If you can afford it/don't mind the faff then a QK'd alpine/pin set up will give you the best performance. Personally, doing 4 weeks or so a year I don't bother.
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@clarky999, I like the sound of a Down 120mm rockered tourer; I would've gone for that this time round! Having said that, I also like the sound of the new Nocta having fettled with a pair in the past.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Weathercam, haha, do you mean Jörg (the Austrian manager)? Several of his team in Tirol are touring on the Noctas FWIW
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 25-02-16 20:27; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks. Have you skied the Corvus? Do you reckon they would be too heavy to mount with F12 bindings (just for multi hour/short day tours)? I have considered the Freebird version but I understand their flex is considerably softer so I'm worried about the compromise in variable and hard snow conditions[/quote]
Ok, Corvus stays the same apart form the graphics.
I haven't toured on it, but a friend of mine (who's on the Black Crows team) tours on the 193 with Dukes - and I'm talking long, proper tours here. He is essentially pro athlete level fit and an absolutely incredible skier though.
Corvus Freeboard still hand flexes plenty stiff. I didn't get around to trying it at the test, but it's a solid ski.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Johnny da Groomer wrote: |
Thanks. Have you skied the Corvus? Do you reckon they would be too heavy to mount with F12 bindings (just for multi hour/short day tours)? I have considered the Freebird version but I understand their flex is considerably softer so I'm worried about the compromise in variable and hard snow conditions |
Ok, Corvus stays the same apart form the graphics.
I haven't skied it, but a friend of mine (who's on the Black Crows team) tours on the 193 with Dukes - and I'm talking long, proper tours here. He is essentially pro athlete level fit and an absolutely incredible skier though. That would be too much for me though.
Corvus Freeboard still hand flexes plenty stiff. I didn't get around to trying it at the test, but it's a solid ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| @Weathercam, haha, do you mean Jörg (the Austrian manager)? Several of his team in Tirol are touring on the Noctas FWIW |
Yeah twas Jorg , but he was a tad condescending about touring on them, but was only after a longer chat did he agree that if you're in the right place with the right conditions they would be good if you have a multi quiver, but as for Spring!
Anyway had one over on him as he'd never heard of the resort that can't be named, Prali, check the forecast out for this weekend!
As an aside rattle thrown out the pram a couple of times with touring kit not set up right, had a fair few mares, and at one point said to myself this was too much like hard work and not fun!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Sharkymark, tested, both up and down six sets of light weight ski tourers, and one, carbon, did shine out pour moi, but another guy who I rated didn't concur, so quelle farce
Should also add tested Sportiva gear which is seriously up gear!
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[quote="Weathercam"]
| clarky999 wrote: |
@Weathercam,
Anyway had one over on him as he'd never heard of the resort that can't be named, Prali, check the forecast out for this weekend!
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Looks a little different to here.....................
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@Weathercam, IMHO it's about choice of layup; you can build in some damping (or, more precisely, avoid an overly stiff twangy plank) in a lightweight ski. Less so than free ride skis than can trade weight for additional damping materials (rubber layers et al). Powd'air is a good example of a well-designed lightweight carbon ski; Scott really know their stuff with composites. The Downs are better damped for sure but then they carry over half a kilo more or so too. I'm a fan of carbon but some do find it too twangy - marmite 
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@Weathercam, haha! Love that! Don't think I mind the hassle too much, but also becoming more and more tempted to just to go for this years Nocta's.... QK them up for pin and current Marker Griffons.
The temptation also comes from the fact that SportConrad are selling them off at 399Euros a pair!
Size advice anyone? Height: 177cm, Weight: 80kg (+/- 3) approaching advanced. Logic dictates a 188, but a love of tight tree runs in Japan and several fun days on shorter fat skis lean me to the 178.
Thoughts?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@joe1890, just buy the longest. A rockered ski is nimble enough and you'll want all the float. FWIW I'm 75kg and ski on 189 fatties. No probs 
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FAQ
