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Salomon S/LAB Shift binding

 Poster: A snowHead
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@princeeliot, spoke to bro in law who is Marker dealer ... they were very unimpressed ... nothing like as technically clever as the shift and certainly not a revolution.
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Just set up my new shifts and anyone getting a pair should read the thread on TGR on Shifts... They apparently are fairly sensitive to setting of the forward pressure and AFD height.

@spyderjon did me a pair of 8mm shims for my touring boots which went together very nicely to give a 0 Delta.

If you are watching Jon I just wanted to check on how you personally set AFD height. I set them using the folded instruction paper and am wondering in your opinion how easily should the paper pull out when AFD height is set right. Not at all, a light tug or slipping out without catching boot base.. Might be overly worried about this but I am missing a few knee bits due to pre releases on various bindings Toofy Grin
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Setting Up A Shift Binding:

Set the dins front & rear - which is pretty obvious - so if you don't know how then stop ready now and take your kit to a shop!

Set the forward pressure so that with the boot installed the raised rectangular silver 'block' is centred between the raised arrows in the knotched recess at the rear of the black heel housing.

Set the toe AFD height. When setting a height adjustable AFD the important thing, after first setting the forward pressure and clicking in your boot on top of the AFD gauge, is to firmly lever the boot cuff rearwards (toward to the ski tail) to ensure the the boot toe lugs are as high as possible in the toe binding. It's also important to trim off any burrs/damage on the toe lugs of your boot.

Alpine bindings with height adjustable AFD's are designed to be set up with a 0.5mm gauge. However the Shift is different as the gauge should only by 0.2mm or a double thickness of the instruction sheet that comes with the bindings. That means that the usual business card toe height is too great for the Shift and could lead to problems. And adjust the AFD height so that the boot has a firm but smooth 'feeler gauge' grip on the gauge.

There's a couple of other 'quirk' about the Shift AFD. Firstly there's quite a bit of backlash in the adjustment screw. And secondly the height adjustment is not fully linear but instead it has a number of 'steps' throughout its adjustment range. For these reasons it's important that you always adjust from low to high to take the backlash out of the screw and if, the AFD is on the cusp of one of the steps, it'll stay at it's lowest position.

So start low and adjust up. If you go too high/tight then drop down a few good turns and start again. And once set remove the boot and press downwards firmly on the AFD with the palm of your hand to ensure that it's fully seated. If the AFD then moves down slightly then you were right on the cusp of one of the steps and you need to repeat the setting process.

Boots with full AT soles will have the AFD close to or at the bottom of the adjustment. Boots with alpine soles with have the AFD close to or at the top of the adjustment. GripWalk/WTR soles will be middle'ish.

The Shift AFD's are very sturdy and once adjusted correctly will not move and AFAIK there's not been a case of anyone breaking one but they are available as spare parts.

And like any freeride touring binding make sure you clear the snow out of all the nooks'n'crannies etc and have clean boots. https://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/2013-09-09-17-07-34/touring-binding-de-icing.html

Note for the gnarly dudes:
The above set-up is as per the very clear instructions supplied with the bindings and as per the Salomon/Atomic/Armada tech manual.
However, if you are a genuine gnarly dude (ie big hucks, hard charging with dins that are 'off chart') then if I were setting you up I'd give to another mm of forward pressure (so the rear edge of the raised rectangular silver 'block' is centred between the raised arrows in the knotched recess at the rear of the black heel housing) and I'd set the AFD height to 0.1mm (ie, a single thickness of the instruction sheet).
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great advice cheers Jon!! Tough to wade through all 88 pages of the TGR thread...

"And adjust the AFD height so that the boot has a firm but smooth 'feeler gauge' grip on the gauge."
noted and that was the bit I wasn't sure of with the AT soles.

"It's also important to trim off any burrs/damage on the toe lugs of your boot. "
Good point, just checked and had a few dings that needed filing down..

As a non gnarly but fat fecker I went slightly forward on the forward pressure setting. Just need to ski em now !
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@spyderjon, snowHead snowHead
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I've just completed a couple of test mounts to get an idea of how it goes together and see if I can keep the boot center while avoiding existing holes.

In some threads I read about the need to get heal alignment nailed on tech bindings. Presumably for the Shift this is less of an issue ?

For the ski mount my main concern is the front collet thingy which seems tricky to torque, but that's probably the wood I'm using to test with.
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Quote:

For the ski mount my main concern is the front collet thingy which seems tricky to torque, but that's probably the wood I'm using to test with.


If DIYing this, I would be strongly inclined to put an insert into the front hole. That way you can adjust the height of the stud if you put it in too shallow or too deep. If you sink it too deep then you risk the toepiece sliding over the stud rather than being held by it. The issues people have had on TGR with the toepiece ripping out have been down to this.
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gorilla wrote:
Quote:

For the ski mount my main concern is the front collet thingy which seems tricky to torque, but that's probably the wood I'm using to test with.


If DIYing this, I would be strongly inclined to put an insert into the front hole. That way you can adjust the height of the stud if you put it in too shallow or too deep. If you sink it too deep then you risk the toepiece sliding over the stud rather than being held by it. The issues people have had on TGR with the toepiece ripping out have been down to this.


The stud cannot be mounted "too deep" as its underside is 11mm in diameter and your only drilling a max 4.1mm diameter hole in the ski so it's no problem at all getting the stud sitting flat/solidly on the topsheet. The problem just 2/3 people on TGR have had is due to a number of skis that have a gap down the centre of the ski that doesn't contain any mounting reinforcing material so you get less pull-out strength in that location. This has been the issue with the three screw Sallie Z series toe bindings for year but there's been few problems with them as very few 'gnarly' skiers use Z series bindings, unlike the Shifts. So the benefit of mounting the front toe stud with a QK insert is to for the added pull-out strength of the insert in skis with lightweight cores etc.

However I've mounted hundreds of pairs of Shifts in all core types and not had an issue. Just don't over torque the screw and don't huck 20 footers to flat landings!!
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@spyderjon, you are more skilled than most people. I got mine sufficiently tight that the toe piece slid over the top. It is totally possible because I did it. No biggie to resolve but a disaster in the making had I not spotted it.
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gorilla wrote:
@spyderjon, you are more skilled than most people. I got mine sufficiently tight that the toe piece slid over the top. It is totally possible because I did it. No biggie to resolve but a disaster in the making had I not spotted it.


Worth being aware of. I've just done mine and was able to check by sliding the toe unit forward on to the lug (?) before tightening the screws.

Getting the AFD height set seems the next challenge as I've not got a gap even with the AFD screw wound all the way out this on Scarpa swapable Alpine soles. I'll look at it again tomorrow.
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AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
......Getting the AFD height set seems the next challenge as I've not got a gap even with the AFD screw wound all the way out this on Scarpa swapable Alpine soles. I'll look at it again tomorrow.

AndAnotherThing note the difference in the Shift AFD set-up compared to a regular heigth adjustable AFD:

spyderjon wrote:
....When setting a height adjustable AFD the important thing, after first setting the forward pressure and clicking in your boot on top of the AFD gauge, is to firmly lever the boot cuff rearwards (toward to the ski tail) to ensure the the boot toe lugs are as high as possible in the toe binding. It's also important to trim off any burrs/damage on the toe lugs of your boot.

Alpine bindings with height adjustable AFD's are designed to be set up with a 0.5mm gauge. However the Shift is different as the gauge should only by 0.2mm or a double thickness of the instruction sheet that comes with the bindings. That means that the usual business card toe height is too great for the Shift and could lead to problems. And adjust the AFD height so that the boot has a firm but smooth 'feeler gauge' grip on the gauge.......
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@spyderjon, Looking again, it turns out that the Scarpa touring soles are OK, as are my Dynafit Atomic touring boots.

It's what I would call standard 'DIN' Alpine soles that seem tight. I thought it was just the Scarpa ones but checking with a pair of old Salomon 'Impact' boots gives the same result. Which makes me think that maybe standard soles are not covered in the spec ?

Which makes sense as you can't tour without pin inserts?
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AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
......Getting the AFD height set seems the next challenge as I've not got a gap even with the AFD screw wound all the way out this on Scarpa swapable Alpine soles. I'll look at it again tomorrow.


AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
....It's what I would call standard 'DIN' Alpine soles that seem tight. I thought it was just the Scarpa ones but checking with a pair of old Salomon 'Impact' boots gives the same result. Which makes me think that maybe standard soles are not covered in the spec?.....

I've know idea what you're talking about here. The Shift has full MNC toe (multi norm compatible) and will work with any boot sole type, including alpine soles. And one of the design aims of the binding was to be able to use it with a 'piste boot' when you're not wanting to skin etc.

The AFD adjustment range is huge so even on boots with well worn alpine soles the AFD will still adjust correctly and still not be max'd out on it's height adjustment. And brand new Scarpa touring soles are the thickest on the market and the AFD still goes low enough to accommodate them.

I don't understand your "even with the AFD screw wound all the way out". The AFD doesn't go in/out. Turning it clockwise raises the AFD and anti-clockwise lowers the AFD, but the adjustment screw doesn't move at all.

And if your "standard 'DIN' Alpine soles......seem tight" then you simply lower the AFD to give the correct gap.

Something's not right here so before you break something I suggest that you give me a call. My phones on from 9am-9pm 7 days a week.
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Quote:
I don't understand your "even with the AFD screw wound all the way out". The AFD doesn't go in/out. Turning it clockwise raises the AFD and anti-clockwise lowers the AFD, but the adjustment screw doesn't move at all.


The screw goes in\out and as you say that raises \ lowers the AFD.

spyderjon wrote:
The AFD adjustment range is huge so even on boots with well worn alpine soles the AFD will still adjust correctly and still not be max'd out on it's height adjustment. And brand new Scarpa touring soles are the thickest on the market and the AFD still goes low enough to accommodate them.


It turns out the adjustment range is indeed huge. So huge that when I was checking the Alpine soles the toe of the boot ended up getting caught on the center front part of the toe binding so sitting artificially low. I had wound the AFD to it's lowest setting with the idea of adjusting up.

Starting with the AFD a little higher for Alpine soles means they sit in the correct position from the off.

Live and learn Laughing

spyderjon As ever, thank you for your offer of help Very Happy
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^^ The cause of the confusion.

If you do find yourself having gone down this rabbet hole, be sure to recheck the forward pressure once the AFD is set and the boot is sitting correctly wink


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 8-12-19 19:18; edited 1 time in total
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[quote="spyderjon"]Setting Up A Shift Binding:


Set the toe AFD height. When setting a height adjustable AFD the important thing, after first setting the forward pressure and clicking in your boot on top of the AFD gauge, is to firmly lever the boot cuff rearwards (toward to the ski tail) to ensure the the boot toe lugs are as high as possible in the toe binding. It's also important to trim off any burrs/damage on the toe lugs of your boot.



Alpine bindings with height adjustable AFD's are designed to be set up with a 0.5mm gauge. However the Shift is different as the gauge should only by 0.2mm or a double thickness of the instruction sheet that comes with the bindings. That means that the usual business card toe height is too great for the Shift and could lead to problems. And adjust the AFD height so that the boot has a firm but smooth 'feeler gauge' grip on the gauge. [quote]

Boot kicks right up when you click in and push back against the heel, wondering what I was doing wrong before hand!

So with the double thickness of the instruction sheet placed between the boot and the AFD it should grip the sheet but the sheet should be removable with a smooth pull. This then allows the AFD to move freely once the sheet has been removed. Is that correct?

Thanks Very Happy
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AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
......pulling back makes no difference.......

Pull harder!! Laughing
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@beenative, yep
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spyderjon wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
......pulling back makes no difference.......

Pull harder!! Laughing


Laughing I was trying to avoid my usual application of bruit force and ignorance. At least I resisted the hammer Embarassed
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spyderjon wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
......pulling back makes no difference.......

Pull harder!! Laughing


Haha!

@spyderjon, Thanks!
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@spyderjon, thanks for those instructions. Just adjusted bindings for Zero-G’s and seemed to work well. Toe AFD set to 1 notch up from the lowest setting to get the smooth gauge with boot pulled back as hard as possible.
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@BobinCH, what boots and sole profile were your Shifts set-up for originally?
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spyderjon wrote:
@BobinCH, what boots and sole profile were your Shifts set-up for originally?


K2 Pinnacle 130. AFD was at highest setting
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BobinCH wrote:
spyderjon wrote:
@BobinCH, what boots and sole profile were your Shifts set-up for originally?


K2 Pinnacle 130. AFD was at highest setting

Shift with an alpine sole (Pinnacle) = 2mm of delta versus Shift with a full AT sole (Zero G) = 8mm of delta. There's your answer!

I ski my Shifts with a AT sole (Dynafit Mercury) and have a 6mm shim under the toe.
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spyderjon wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
spyderjon wrote:
@BobinCH, what boots and sole profile were your Shifts set-up for originally?


K2 Pinnacle 130. AFD was at highest setting

Shift with an alpine sole (Pinnacle) = 2mm of delta versus Shift with a full AT sole (Zero G) = 8mm of delta. There's your answer!

I ski my Shifts with a AT sole (Dynafit Mercury) and have a 6mm shim under the toe.


I haven’t skied the Zero-G’s in the Shifts yet. Planning to do that tomorrow. So what you’re saying is that I may have the same issue? And what about if I try the Pinnacles in the Xenics?
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Quote:

And what about if I try the Pinnacles in the Xenics?


If you have problems with the Pinnacles in the Xenics then it's probably the delta. Yes, the test is sensitive to the relative height of the inserts in the toes of the respective boots but it's worth a look.
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anyone tried their shifts with boots that have interchangeable alpine or AT GripWalk soles? I am looking at new boots and am wondering how much lateral stiffness is compromised with grip soles vs alpine soles. I get very sore knees using my shifts and 2011 vintage dynafit titans and going to upgrade boots.

Looking at either Lange XT Free Pro Model Low Volume or Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130 and it doesn't look like the Atomics have interchangeable soles.. I would imagine the alpine soles will be much more solid but....
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@skimottaret, I now have two skis with Shifts, both used with Dalbello Lupo 120s. I've only ever skied them with the GripWalk soles (though you can swap to alpine), but the thought of changing them for better lateral stiffness (or even the idea of needing more/more being possible) had never even crossed my mind. Not sure if that answers your question as I guess you are more sensitive to that than me, but...

I think you'd have to be VERY picky to notice that. Especially on a ski (based on binding choice) you are surely expecting to ski mostly on 3D snow rather than race carving on boilerplate.
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skimottaret wrote:
......Looking at either Lange XT Free Pro Model Low Volume or Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130 and it doesn't look like the Atomics have interchangeable soles.. I would imagine the alpine soles will be much more solid but....

No difference between the two as GW sole has a recessed solid panel that sits on to binding AFD to give a solid interface and the squishy rubber sole under the ball of the foot is in fresh air. No difference either at the heel. But the GW sole is waaaay better for any boot packing and walking around town/dancin' on tables etc. A GW sole in the Shift means a slightly lower AFD setting meaning increased delta meaning that you'd have to up your shim thickness to compensate.

Given an equal fit so a free choice between the two boots I'd reckon that the Hawx would be better on the up as it's lighter (1420g v 1900g which is a big difference) and has a great ROM (54 v 40 degrees which is also a dig difference). The XT should be better on the down (140 v 130 flex assuming their flex's are based upon the same 'scale' which they probably aren't) which would be better for your stats.

But as you're not doing the Haute Route none of these differences are worth compromising on the fit so get the best fit.
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thanks guys very useful. The rubber soles on my dynafits are quite spongy and I was getting quite a bit of knee wobble with them on my legends 88's with shifts. For a little comparison adjusted the shifts last night so I can use my daily driver plug boots to see if it is the boots or me just skiing tentative on a sore knee Smile

Good to hear the GW soles are solid under the AFD. Will hopefully try em both out but for me it is all about the fit and the down as I only do short skins, cant be arsed with hours uphill anymore so not bothered on weight. (have done plenty of 1000m tours on plug boots, dukes and mantras and survived !)
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interesting (to me at least) is that skiing on the same dynastar legend 88's with plug boots completely different to my Titans with vibrate sole. I hadn't considered that older AT boots without grip walk would be so poor in alpine mode with the Shifts but they were and in hindsight makes sense. Just reporting as if anyone is considering shifts remember that in downhill/alpine mode the toe is held not by the pins but as per an alpine boot and rubber soles suck...
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skimottaret wrote:
......Just reporting as if anyone is considering shifts remember that in downhill/alpine mode the toe is held not by the pins but as per an alpine boot and rubber soles suck...

No, it's just your old Titans that suck Toofy Grin. The soles on most of the latest touring boots have hard rubber lugs where they contact the AFD to give a firm interface.
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Fair enough Laughing Laughing
another good reason to bin the pieces of rubbish, never liked em from day one, made loads of mods and still hate em Wink
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I’m keen to get a set of the shifts for my Volkl M5s they currently have marker griffon, are there any issues re drilling new holes or reusing the existing holes? Thanks
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DTB wrote:
I’m keen to get a set of the shifts for my Volkl M5s they currently have marker griffon, are there any issues re drilling new holes or reusing the existing holes? Thanks

You can't reuse any of the Griffon holes but assuming that you've not changed boot sole length then there are no clashes. And I have Shifts in stock wink
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@spyderjon, when you talk about “shim” what exactly are you referring please?
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Bennyboy1 wrote:
@spyderjon, when you talk about “shim” what exactly are you referring please?

A shim is an aftermarket item (usually custom made) that goes bewteen the ski and the binding to raise or lower its height. Shims are usually used to alter the delta angle of the binding, which is the height of the heel binding relative to the toe binding and in most cases the shim will be under the toe to reduce the delta angle, but that's not always the case. I've also made shims to folks that have a difference in leg length so I've had equal height shims under both the toe and heel bindings on just one ski.

Unlike most bindings, due to its height adjustable AFD, the Shift binding does not have a fixed delta angle. With a full AT boot installed its delta is 8/9mm (ie the heel of the boot is 8/9mm higher than the toe) but with an alpine soled boot its about 2mm. I've previously supplied skimottaret with toe shims for a number of his ski/binding set-ups, including Shifts, to reduce his delta to zero (= level) so that's what I was referring to above.

Here's a pic of my Shifts with Shims installed to reduce the delta:

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Thank you that’s a very detailed response. Much appreciated!
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SHIFT UPDATE FOR 20/21:

For next season the current Shift MNC 13 (6-13 din) remains unchanged apart from the list price increasing from £400 to £450. And in addition to the current blue/black colour there will also be an all black version.

There will also be a lower din version called the Shift MNC 10 (4-10 din) which will only be in all black colour and its list price will be £400. Apart from the lower din range this binding is identical to the 13 version with the same brakes/crampons etc.
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[quote="spyderjon"]Unlike most bindings, due to its height adjustable AFD, the Shift binding does not have a fixed delta angle. With a full AT boot installed its delta is 8/9mm (ie the heel of the boot is 8/9mm higher than the toe) but with an alpine soled boot its about 2mm. I've previously supplied skimottaret with toe shims for a number of his ski/binding set-ups, including Shifts, to reduce his delta to zero (= level) so that's what I was referring to above.

@spyderjon - this is a great explanation of delta height. What is the impact of having a greater delta eg. 8mm vs 2mm?
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