 Poster: A snowHead
|
Just back from a mixed trip to St Anton.
Had a great time on the piste, but the two days that I spent off-piste were not so successful. I have a phobia about heights, get a bit funny on cable cars, and this year for the first time got it on the slopes.
My technique is pretty good (even if I say so myself!), but on the first day out with the guide, we started with a fairly long traverse to find some fresh tracks, which ended up with me extremely tense and anxious by the end, to such an extent that I didn't enjoy the rest of the day and left the group at lunch time. The second day we had a fairly steep run in to a powder field between some rocks, and the same thing happened, only worse, so much so that I could hardly move or turn.
I'm not sure what it is that gets me so wound up. I can ski slopes of the same steepness with the same depth of powder on them with no problem if they're in view of the piste, so I don't think that my technique per se needs too much doing to it, but something needs to change to stop me getting these drastic losses of confidence.
Has anyone experienced the same thing when starting to do "proper" off-piste, and if so, how did you overcome it?
Thoughts that I've had so far are either a week with "Alpine Experience" in Val d'Isere, or possibly hiring a private guide for a few days. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
How about some time with a ski instructor specifically off piste?
Can you pinpoint it? Is it concern over avalanches, hitting obstacles or something else?
I don't think a private guide would help tbh
regards,
Greg
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Snowbird, Kramer, Fatigue induced loss of technique can effect my head. Could this have been a reason. I know a few folks who dont like heights. Some days it is worse than others. They dont know why.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Frosty the Snowman, both times it was first thing in the morning, so fatigue wasn't a factor.
gregh, it's something to do with looking down and not being able to see a reassuring way to get back to the safety of the piste. Between pistes I'm absolutely fine and can ski down it until the cows come home, it's when I'm out of site of them that it's a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Kramer, you might want to have a check for some of the posts sharon1953 has made recently, I believe she is a psychologist specialising in this type of thing.
I had some rather wobbly moments coming down an icy-ish red from the Cime de Caron last Easter, not sure how I will approach this on my return.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps you need to see a therapist who specialises in phobias etc. - or find an instructor who has genuine experience working with skiers on the mental side of skiing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer,
When you first go away from the piste that first traverse into the unknown can be intimidating.
Problems sometimes occur by the side of the piste but in the event of something happening you are most likely safer off-piste with safety equipment and a good guide.
Try to tell your head that and soon you will be looking forward to getting away into the backcountry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
The guy I was with on Saturday (not the beginner) he gets seriously out of sorts on chairlifts - a bit on the telecabins - but not on the actual mountains. It was quite interesting - trying to pointing out views to look at. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that I need to find an understanding instructor/guide, who can gradually build up my confidence. Anyone got any recommendations?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
easiski comes well recommended...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Kramer, I thought you were the doctor?
But, seriously. Hmmm.
On the thankfully rare (once?) occasion that I have "frozen" I found that a little aggression and "commitment" helped. But it sounds as though you have a generalised anxiety more than just a split second "what the h3ll am I doing here" feeling. And it sounds as though it is related to being far from a piste - is it to do with worries of not being able to be rescued if something goes wrong? In which case I would prescribe an emergency trip to Alta in Utah where the whole area is "inbounds" and within sight of pistes.
Alpine Experience would possibly be a good idea and would certainly be sympathetic - maybe all you need is some desensitisation.
Or, a little left field, maybe some deep off piste on easy runs but way out in the backcountry? Get used to being away from the piste in a reasonably safe environment? Again, I'm sure Alpine Experience can help out with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer, Mr HH has had problems with heights for years....we don't do real off piste so can't advise there but his main problems when skiing (as opposed to riding the lifts which is another kettle of fish) come from what he can see down the mountain. Maybe this is something to think about? If he can see all the way down to the bottom of a valley that can freak him out, if he can only see part way down (say to a ridge) then no problems. Is this what happens to you.....when you can see the piste nearby that's what you concentrate on but when you go fully off piste you look right down to the bottom which sends your brain into overdrive? Don't know if that'll help really....the only thing that's helped Mr HH is to keep on doing what scares him until it doesn't anymore!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Kramer, You mention a week with Alpine Experience (AE). For off piste instruction, guiding and confidence building I highy reccommend AE but for overcoming a fear like you describe I do not think that a week with them would be the best. For myself, I am not scared of heights, chairlifts etc are no problem. But, I find precipices and steep traverses intimidating. Some of the routes that AE use have interesting places where I feel insecure. I have to take a deep breath and tell myself that I am just worrying for no good reason. Some of their other clients have bigger worries and less skill than me and the guides do help them over particularly difficult areas - I am thinking of steep or exposed entrances to slopes. In a weeks skiing with AE you would expect to visit many interesting slopes around the resort, with a few places where falling would be a very bad idea. If you had private lessons then you could dictate the type of slopes. If you joined one of their normal groups then they would try and accomodate your fears (provided you explained them when booking) but they go where the snow is good and where their clients will be challenged but not freaked out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, love the phrase "Fatigue induced loss of technique" will remember it when I'm next having a poor skiing moment. Kramer, I don't think I'm in your league ski wise but when I have a "loss of faith" moment I try to give myself a good talking to, telling myself that I've done this sort of thing loads of time before. Also shouting at myself "turn-turn" sometimes helps. Glad others have such moments as well (and I know that really doesn't help you Kramer but it helps me!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
stevew, I sometimes shorten the title to " anything after 10.45" 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Fatigue induced loss of technique can effect my head |
Sounds just like two lads in my last chalet. They rolled in from a bar at 4am several mornings. They then made strange groaning noises loud and Shhh-ing sounds to inform everyone that they had returned. Their heads and their skiing technique restricted them to the West Face of the Duvet until around 11am.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Get this occasionally. I've noticed that it's sometimes better when I'm on my own, or under no indirect 'pressure' to perform because of the presence of more competent and quicker skiers. Getting angry with myself usually helps a lot. Not being too ambitious, too soon. Working up gradually to the more difficult runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I think that part of it for me is that when I'm on piste I don't stop to think about it, I just go for it, whereas with a guide there's lots of stopping and starting initially which gives me plenty of time to wind myself up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Kramer, You may have put your finger on it. I also find the Start/Stop, of Reps or Guides, a bit disconcerting especially in the mornings. Why is it always that the 09:30 challenging traverse - always dodgy - gets the brain into such a tizzy? Perhaps breakfast itself? Tummy is digesting breakfast nicely and suddenly brain sends urgent message - ALERT! STOP all non-essential tasks (bowels excepted) - owner has apparently malfunctioned, has left the piste and engaged in crazy activities - Followed swiftly by messages 2 & 3, "RELEASE maximum dose of 'Scare the pants off owner' hormone to cease/slow down these crazy activities", and "Bowels - prepare for any eventuality."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BernardC, dont have breakfast then 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer, I think it is a sign of incredible intellegence. Funnily enough I suffer from exactly the same thing! Seriously though, if I'm skiing off-piste in unfamilier surroundings, fear and axiety kick in, usually because of not knowing whats around the next bend. As I suffer from a phobia of heights I am always worried there is going to be a drop which will give me an attack. I was told that my phobia is linked to my dyslexia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Kramer, we often forget that our mental approach is at least as important as our technique. Weems Westfeldt's new book Brilliant Skiing Every Day discusses the four aspects of skiing, and technique is only one of them.
Were I with you, I'd ask you a few questions about what's going through your mind when you discover this. What thoughts are there? About what are you thinking?
Next, I would suggest that you make one turn. One easy, complete turn to a stop. If that goes well, make two. Do that a few times until you're comfortable linking a few. Surprisingly, this works quite well.
FWIW, I had a similar issue early last year on the coaches' day preceeding the ESA. At the top of a reasonably pitched slope on Lone Mountain (Big Sky, MT), I (quietly) freaked. I was almost frozen. One of the coaches made the above suggestion: make a single turn. Next thing I knew, I was linking turns to the bottom, and I was fine. It was all mental (the signs saying, "Slide for life conditions, self arrest knowledge required" contributed to that!).
I hope that this provides you some food for thought. And Weems' book is really good!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nice post ssh. Basically: "just take it one turn at a time"! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Glad you all liked
| Quote: |
| "Fatigue induced loss of technique" |
. Paul Mason has suggested an official abbreviation of FILOT
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ssh, thanks for the good advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I find that any real exposure really concentrates the mind and so it should. I often have a few "don't f***** fall here" moments where rocks are concerned or where a fall will be not good at all but I then try to get out my banker turn and even if I do it one turn at a time it helps build up the confidence and the buzz I get from that is what makes me do it.
Knowing that you have a turn that works when you are in the poo is what I try to achieve..and sometimes it ain't the prettist but it needs to be safe...
The other thing I do is try and plan my way out exactly and know where the better place to fall is..because if you are skiing this defensively...and it happens from time to time.. the chances of a fall are higher.... Just go back to basics and get the confidence back of knowing you can do it in the hairier places...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
JT, good points. I like to encourage skiers to find a "bulletproof turn" that they can use anytime, anywhere to get down anything. Perhaps not pretty, but safely.
I find that a retraction turn works very well for this, especially on steeps, since it keeps my CoM low through the scary part of the turn (from transition to the fall line).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
spyderjon, coming from pencil skis, I enjoy skiing in the snow and not just on it, but it's certainly true that fatter skis make skiing in difficult snow conditions an easier proposition. I enjoyed the B5s in all of the terrain and conditions that we found in Utah, but imagine that fatter skis might have made some of it a bit less challenging. I also found that having experienced and appropriate coaching from the best of the best was helpful. When Shanzy said, "You can do this, come over here and..." I realized that I could. It wasn't empty flattery. He had seen me ski and knew what I could do--and I trusted him not to mislead me in it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
JT, I think that you make a good point about being confident in a turn that works, I do have a turn that works, but I'm not confident enough with it on deep snow, and it does occassionally send me veering off. On the second day, the steep(ish) approach was surrounded by rocks, and I'm sure that didn't help.
spyderjon, I was on my B2s, the powder was knee deep, and with my generously proportioned frame, I did feel that I was having to work harder to get them to turn. I did think about renting some fat skis, but I quizzed a few instructors and guides and they didn't seem to think that if was worth it, although I did wonder there was a bit of off-piste snobbery going on at the time? I can't blame it all on my skis though, because on Saturday in Lech and Zurs, when we had the powder day of my dreams, I was having very few problems with my B2s.
Hmm, new skis...
So either downgrade the B2s to rock hopping, and then get some Stockli Stormrider XLs, or get some GS skis (Atomic RX10s, Salamon Equipe 10 2vs?), and then fork out for some fatboys next time I'm in a resort and it's snowing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
ssh,
Everyone should have one but I'm surprised how many people miss this obvious little tip... even a little stem will do and never underestimate a bombproof sideslip.... probably the most important technique IMV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
ssh, you make a very good point about part of the appeal of powder being that you get that lovely feeling of being in it rather than on it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Kramer,
Sometimes I'm not skiing well - which again, will not help the confidence, but I know I can get down. For me, its a question of just over-emphasising the turn in every way...starting it, if need be, with a little stem, and then just hanging onto the edges after I flipped them round or whatever it takes really.
I don't fall over too much unless I'm trying to keep up with faster skiers...which happened on my last outing....but even then, after a while, I thought they can wait. There is nothing worse than making a pigs ear of it because you are hurrying...then you fall and get tired and the whole things snowballs.
Its about getting to a position where you are skiing within yourself.....!!
It might not be pretty or even desirable but having that confidence of being able to cope is what my skiing has been all about over the last few years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The other thing is that in Europe the Brits ski all the crap that locals don't bother with.. they are there all the time and can pick their days...we ski all sorts of junk...often very badly..... And the locals don't start the day tired after 4 days hard skiing, they would probably take a day off or have an easy one. And as they are generally fitter/better they don't tire so easily. The Brits are the worse at hammering everything for the week.... No wonder it all falls apart sometimes...
I no longer beat myself up about it but it might be good to spend a bit if time tuning up on piste........................ and then we get bored and start all over again..!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, ya mon! The sideslip is essential!
For those who don't know a retraction turn, you can learn it like this:
- Learn the bottom first. On an easy (for you) run, start with skis straight downhill and your body very flexed. From this position, in one movement, extend your legs and turn them to a stop. The extend/turn needs to be one movement and not two. And it needs to be progressive so that you start in the fall line, and end the extension and the turn at the same time when you stop.
- You can link these to get a real feel for it.
- Next, learn the top. From a very extended position across the hill, pull your feet up towards you progressively and turn your skis into the fall line. You'll find that retracting a lot makes that turn into the fall line easy because of the leverage you get.
- Now, put them together. Pull your feet up to start the turn, then extend to finish it.
- Link them together.
What you'll find if you do this is that eventually the pulling up of your feet will be about 10-30% of the turn. You'll find that this keeps your Center of Mass low, connects you to the snow, and gives you a feeling of control that you won't feel in the other primary kind of turn (extend to start, flex at the end). Neither turn is right or wrong, but I find that the retraction turn really gives me a friendly, solid turn for times when I need it. I'm indebted to Ursula Howland of Big Sky, Montana (also a coach at the ESA for the past two years) for this progression and the insights into the turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| JT wrote: |
The other thing is that in Europe the Brits ski all the crap that locals don't bother with.. they are there all the time and can pick their days...we ski all sorts of junk...often very badly..... And the locals don't start the day tired after 4 days hard skiing, they would probably take a day off or have an easy one. And as they are generally fitter/better they don't tire so easily. The Brits are the worse at hammering everything for the week.... No wonder it all falls apart sometimes...
I no longer beat myself up about it but it might be good to spend a bit if time tuning up on piste........................ and then we get bored and start all over again..!!! |
On the other hand, all of the skiing in the wide variety of conditions will make you a better skier over the long haul. This year one of my on-snow mentors passed on this advice to help me improve my skiing: ski conditions you wouldn't normally ski in ways that you wouldn't normally ski them. If you'd ski them with short turns, use long turns. If you'd ski one aspect, pick the other. And so on.
I will tell you that such an approach has really made a difference this season. And I've got some amazing memories as a result!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer, I think you've had very good advice from ssh, but I also think that if the problem persists you could do worse than get some hypnotherapy. I had it when my vertigo got totally out of hand and it helped hugely. I still do get the odd attack of vertigo (Pic Blanc at ADH), and try to avoid exposed traverses and very narrow places where to fall would be dangerous, but on the whole I keep getting a bit better every year. The problem is finding a good therapist - some of them are cr*p!
I would have thought B2s would be OK for most situations, and knee deep isn't really ALL that deep!!! Anyway, don't rush to buy fat skis. Are you coming to the EOSB? I think so, then you'll have testing chances and Zag should be coming ....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
That must be written in 'The Book' -I can see the T-Shirt & the stickers......
.
