 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi folks,
What is the recommended shell check clearance at the heel, in mm, for a boot fit biased towards the performance end.
TIA
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Less than 15mm
See a boot fitter!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Its my sons boots (17) fitted by someone who claimed to be a boot fitter in a well known retail store, he's complaining of heel lift and I just his checked his clearance and its 25mm plus!
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Recreational fit 20mm max
Performance fit 15mm
Race fit 10mm
But a lot depends on the individuals tolerance to pressure*.
*Pressure is not pain. If there's pain then they're a bad fit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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always an interesting question.... whilst the numbers give above are fairly good, it as Spyderjon suggests very personal.... if i had a £ for everyone who says they are a great skier but complains that "this boot is touching my foot" then i could have retired years ago!
how much skiing does the skier do each season? what type of footwear do they use when not skiing? what other sports do they participate in? how flexible / tight are their calf muscles and ankle joints etc etc
as a rule we like to work in that 15-18mm bracket as most of the skiers we see (even those self proclaimed experts) cannot tolerate much less...someone skiing several weeks a year potentially can, this is an individual thing...biggest problem is the boots are not accurate to the measuring device, so often you end up having to drop a size to get a good fit, some people understand this most do not.... if it is then tight (generally because they are in the back seat and not as good as they claimed to be) they walk into a not so good resort shop, the staff stand them on a measure and proclaim that the boot is too small as they measure 27.0 and the boot is 26.5 therefore completely wrong WITHOUT even looking at how much space there is inside!
next thing to remember is there is 10mm between shell sizes, so if you are a 1/2 decent skier and you try one size where the shell check is 22mm for example, the next size down is 12mm so most people will not tolerate it... does this mean that you need to look at another model of boots? some might say yes..... equally if you try something with an 18mm shell check and it feels too tight, the next size is 28mm which is too big. then you have to consider volume of the foot, and probably most importantly the inability for people to follow a simple instruction..... "please move your foot forward in the shell so that your toes JUST brush the front of the boot"! thats NOT the side, NOT so they are clear, NOT so they are scrunched up and tucked under!!!
did the prodigal son give any feedback to the fitter? i could guess that the smaller pair were rejected as they felt too tight??? or did YOU ask for a bit of space as "his feet might not have finished growing??? whilst 25mm + is considered too big, it could be for many reasons... remember people get heel lift in boots that are the right size, the volume of the boot is equally important as is the ankle joint ROM
sorry to sound like a rant, but this is one subject where there is no simple answer and normally the fitter gets the blame for whatever the outcome
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CEM, My 'leisure fit' boots are still fine 
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Race fit 10mm |
My race boots are totally comfy at 5mm, the liners are really thin.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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next question.... how are you defining the 5mm, 10mm X mm exactly what point are you measuring to and from
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| CEM wrote: |
| sorry to sound like a rant, but this is one subject where there is no simple answer and normally the fitter gets the blame for whatever the outcome |
Not at all, thanks for the comments, Andy fitted my boots at your shop and after 1 minor tweak they are perfect, best fit I have ever had!
Next time I'll make sure he comes to you for a fit.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rjs wrote: |
| ......My race boots are totally comfy at 5mm, the liners are really thin. |
You sir are Bode Miller and I claim my £5
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@spyderjon, They are just normal race boots, they are designed to be sized that tight, remind me the next time you see me and I'll show you the liners. I was using a pencil to work out how much room was available.
I gather that the top WC racers have their feet lazer scanned then use 3D printing to make a custom boot for them.
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| rjs wrote: |
I gather that the top WC racers have their feet lazer scanned then use 3D printing to make a custom boot for them. |
nope, not sure where you heard that story from, probably one of the resort boot fitters who fits the entire french/austrian/italian * (delete as appropriate) team
many companies have 3D scanners and some make plaster models of the athletes foot and lower leg, but generally this is only for the "problem cases" what they do have is extensive notes on each athlete and what work has been done on the boot incuding all the punches, grinds the cuff set up , any sole grind, preferred footbeds etc etc the vast majority of the boot work is done before the athlete even sees the boot.
3D printing will come, not quite sure when, but the materials are not there yet for a skiable boot, orthotics are being 3 d printed, and there is a project being headed up by HP where they are bi injecting the midsole and 3D printing the upper of a shoe based on 3D foot scans (all within 28 minutes) this tech will be launched officially at ISPO next january
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You know it makes sense.
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@CEM, It was from a French ski magazine, they were 3D printing in metal the plug to use in the injection moulding process.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rjs wrote: |
| @CEM, It was from a French ski magazine, they were 3D printing in metal the plug to use in the injection moulding process. |
any idea what brand? the cost of that is astronomical, certainly not the ones i deal with unless they are only telling the french
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Poster: A snowHead
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This is gold!
Trying to revive this even though it's a couple of year old... It's really great to have experienced fitters sharing their knowledge and experience.
| CEM wrote: |
| next question.... how are you defining the 5mm, 10mm X mm exactly what point are you measuring to and from |
Was hoping to see the answer further down in the thread 
Is a stick / dowel a good approach?
Would you use same shell clearance guidelines for freeride/freetour boots?
e.g. lupos, cochise, xt freetours, hawks xtd... where some hike/skin up is involved (although not as much as dedicated touring boots).
Here's my fitting dilemma:
I measure 26 / 26.5 cm mid/narrow forefoot, slightly high arch / instep.
Reasonably fit/flexible, although not super athletic. Somewhat relaxed skier. Mid 40s, aabout 20-24 days per season.
A couple of year back I tried some first gen Lupos (last 98mm) in size 25.5.
Shell fit of about 12-15mm - No specific pressure points, but very tight all over.
Skied in them (uncomfortably) for 10 days or so; lots of pain after a mile-long walk and eventually lost part of nail.
So... got them in 26:
seemed perfect after molding and with my footbed. Good ankle / rear foot hold. Done a couple of tours with no issues.
But, after 6 weeks of total use have to crank down all buckels as liners felt very spongy and loose, even with a 3mm volume reducer (particularly in warm-ish temperatures).
Shell clearance is around 19-21mm (depending on foot)...
So the dilemma:
1. Are they too big for the intended use?
2. Would a new liner help? Something like an Intuition that doesn't compress as much (and cheaper than new boots)
3. Are they the wrong boot? (But the 3 piece cabrio feels good with high-ish arch; e.g. Scarpa Freedom would press on the instep)
I understand that for example Tecnica Cochise are sized longer (at comparable size), so perhaps would work better down to size 25?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 21-10-19 17:37; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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(oh dear... sorry for the rather long post)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Furthest rear part of the heel to it's horizontal place in the shell, 8mm, possibly a couple of mm either way depending on brand. Level of skier never taken into account.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
| I gather that the top WC racers have their feet lazer scanned then use 3D printing to make a custom boot for them. |
Considering I have seen (and actually still use some of them myself) quite few of those boots and people who use them, I could safely say there's not a single 3d printed boot on WC tour. But yeah there are hours on work stuck into every single boot to fit perfectly. But that's basically grinding, punching etc. but nothing remotely considered "modern technology" like 3d printing would be.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@primoz, It was in a magazine article.
I presumed that it was describing an experiment. Find out what the current status of 3d printing is by using it for a real scenario and make a boot that one of their athletes can try out. The outside of the boot would look normal, the 3d printing was used just for the plug.
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Yeah for modern Touring/Randonné boots, 0 rearwards resistance and huge ROM, so fitting big is no longer needed. Plus the materials are easy to stretch, you just shout at them really loud.
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| MonteHelm wrote: |
Was hoping to see the answer further down in the thread
Is a stick / dowel a good approach?
Would you use same shell clearance guidelines for freeride/freetour boots?
e.g. lupos, cochise, xt freetours, hawks xtd... where some hike/skin up is involved (although not as much as dedicated touring boots).
Here's my fitting dilemma:
I measure 26 / 26.5 cm mid/narrow forefoot, slightly high arch / instep.
Reasonably fit/flexible, although not super athletic. Somewhat relaxed skier. Mid 40s, aabout 20-24 days per season.
A couple of year back I tried some first gen Lupos (last 98mm) in size 25.5.
Shell fit of about 12-15mm - No specific pressure points, but very tight all over.
Skied in them (uncomfortably) for 10 days or so; lots of pain after a mile-long walk and eventually lost part of nail.
So... got them in 26:
seemed perfect after molding and with my footbed. Good ankle / rear foot hold. Done a couple of tours with no issues.
But, after 6 weeks of total use have to crank down all buckels as liners felt very spongy and loose, even with a 3mm volume reducer (particularly in warm-ish temperatures).
Shell clearance is around 19-21mm (depending on foot)...
So the dilemma:
1. Are they too big for the intended use?
2. Would a new liner help? Something like an Intuition that doesn't compress as much (and cheaper than new boots)
3. Are they the wrong boot? (But the 3 piece cabrio feels good with high-ish arch; e.g. Scarpa Freedom would press on the instep)
I understand that for example Tecnica Cochise are sized longer (at comparable size), so perhaps would work better down to size 25? |
My foot measures dead on 26.5cm on a Brannock and I have a 10mm shell fit in the first generation Cochise in a 25/25.5 measured with a sharpie which is conveniently pretty much exactly 10mm diameter.
I have just about a 15mm shell fit in my TLT6 (last generation) in a 26/26.5. I guess from this you could infer the Cochise runs a bit longer internally compared to a TLT6.
I feel I have a reasonably high tolerance for tighter fitting footwear and both these boots work well for me for their intended use (although I am looking potentially to replace both of them with the Zero G Tour Pro this season)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thank you @CH2O
| charlie.wilkinson wrote: |
My foot measures dead on 26.5cm on a Brannock and I have a 10mm shell fit in the first generation Cochise in a 25/25.5 measured with a sharpie which is conveniently pretty much exactly 10mm diameter.
I have just about a 15mm shell fit in my TLT6 (last generation) in a 26/26.5. I guess from this you could infer the Cochise runs a bit longer internally compared to a TLT6.
I feel I have a reasonably high tolerance for tighter fitting footwear and both these boots work well for me for their intended use (although I am looking potentially to replace both of them with the Zero G Tour Pro this season) |
Thanks for confirming - that's interesting.
On SkiAlper's Buyers Guide they take lots of boots and measure pretty much everything:
it appears that at size 27, internal length for Langes freetour, Lupos etc is around 293-294mm, while for Cochise they report 300mm.
I guess I would need to sit a proper bootfitting session and try different models:
a lower shell clearance could work probably if I have some more room in the toes...
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| MonteHelm wrote: |
Was hoping to see the answer further down in the thread
Is a stick / dowel a good approach?
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I use a mechanics socket set! A socket on an extension can be slid down into the heel pocket. Go up in mm increments easily to find a snug fit, then measure the outside with a caliper. Maybe not something everyone has to hand but satisfies my inner geek (for both skiing and tools).
| MonteHelm wrote: |
Would you use same shell clearance guidelines for freeride/freetour boots?
e.g. lupos, cochise, xt freetours, hawks xtd... where some hike/skin up is involved (although not as much as dedicated touring boots).
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Also very interested in this, coming from a snug fitting performance boot (I measure 28 dead but a Nordica 27.5 gives me 16mm shell fit.)
I've also got a similar dilemma to you - I skied a Hawx XTD 28.5 loaner boot. It had been stretched to fit someone else and felt roomy.
Put on a 27.5 box fresh (they had no 28.5) and they were extremely tight (length). Maybe a 'fresh' 28.5 fitted to me would do it.
On paper, 12mm is possibly tight, 22mm is quite loose. I seem to be in the middle of shell sizes for most models I've tried on and not sure where I should be aiming for a "performance tourer". Tricky!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Shells can be blown out but can not be shrunk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| gravity-slave wrote: |
On paper, 12mm is possibly tight, 22mm is quite loose. I seem to be in the middle of shell sizes for most models I've tried on and not sure where I should be aiming for a "performance tourer". Tricky! |
Matt Manser(Atomic Ski Boots Global Product Manager) suggests a 2cm shell fit for 'maximize comfort while touring ' but acknowledges that some will want to downsize the XTD for 'downhill performance reasons'.
I have a 18mm shell fit in my XTDs and am certain that I would not be happy touring in them if they had a 12mm shell fit.
I like your socket set idea.
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Thanks! I've tried lots of options, not all, have a narrow foot and ski a 98mm last alpine boot. Looking mostly for downhill - my use will mostly be short skins to access terrain and hopefully the odd UK tour.
I'll be in Cham in Jan, so that is indeed my plan to chat in Sole, Sanglard etc
My main starting point is how tight to go before stretching/fitting - I have had several alpine boots - race fit, foam injection etc so have a good idea how a boot fit will translate to comfort and performance once bedded in. Just no idea on the touring side. 20mm-ish makes sense to me but don't want to get hung up on the absolute size, I know it's a rule of 'toe' and not a given and volume around the instep and heel also important.
I have the Pro Machine 130 in a very snug fit which are awesome, so I'm thinking something edging towards to compliment them - comfort for an all terrain boot but with focus on downhill so don't want too big.
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You know it makes sense.
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Never really bought into the whole shell length check concept. Length of my foot never really dictated how well a boot will fit.
My toes always hit the end before I have any idea if the boot will fit. If you chopped off the end of a ski boot I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have any influence on how well it held my foot.
For the fitters, what exactly are you trying to check here?
Also boot manufacturers scale their shell sizes differently, some just increase all ratios by the same percentage. Most split the shell into regions that scale differently, and bolt the buckles back on after. So again length would change fit differently depending on manufacturer.
Would like to hear a fitters opinion here
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@dulcamara,
that's a good point!
For me, the key issues of bootfit are
a) does the boot hold my heel firmly in the heel pocket
b) does the boot tip onto edge directly when I tip my foot
c) does it hurt
In theory all of these could be achieved with extra length around the toes provided that the foot is held into the heel pocket by the 2nd /3rd (or 2nd) buckle area.
But I suspect in most cases excess length IMPLIES that there is too much room in this area as well?
It seems like a "rule of thumb" that typically works rather than a fundamental?
As you say - would be interesting to hear what CEM has to say.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| Never really bought into the whole shell length check concept. Length of my foot never really dictated how well a boot will fit ... If you chopped off the end of a ski boot I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have any influence on how well it held my foot. |
Agree with you from a downhill skiing point of view, but in an overlap touring boot not having enough length can be awful when skinning. Touring boots with a tongue tend to hold the foot in place better when skinning, so you can often get away with less length, up to a point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster Yeah, agree and that's how I see it. In my experience as a punter trying and owning a few, boots tend to scale proportionally all over so as well as length and width, the volume between heel pocket and 2nd/3rd clip increases too and can lead to reduced heel hold. So it follows that for best overall performance you want a smaller shell to grip where it needs to grip and stretch out where you need space.
Also interested in what the pro's say!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is why im up against the toe in my TLT8s. Gotta stretch those toes out otherwise the ankle on the next size doesn't hold me at all.
Basically its my go to move for all touring boots these days. Waiting for a pair that fit like the old TLT5s.
Out of interest. Which touring boot has the tightest ankle? Backland, travers, f1 and tlt7 were too big 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
Waiting for a pair that fit like the old TLT5s.
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Maybe somebody could persuade Dynafit to bring back Federico Sbrissa.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
Out of interest. Which touring boot has the tightest ankle? Backland, travers, f1 and tlt7 were too big |
Have you had your foot in Speedfits? Havn't tried them on, but that would be my guess.
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Speedfits are basically the same shell as the TLT6 as far as i know.
The 8 is tighter than the 7 at least, that was like a boat for me.
I'm expecting some interesting boots from dynafit in the coming years. The new head of footwear is the guy that more than tripled Fischers ski boot sales in a few years. And the semi-new head of development is the guy that developed the dobermann.
Mix that with hoji and the guy that invented the pin binding and you can't help but expect something special.
I guess time will tell
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@jedster, i don't think there is a correct answer, it is an individual thing and very dependent on the skiers tolerance to compression around the foot, these 10mm shell checks are all well and good if the skier can tolerate the compression, the shell shape matches the toe shape closely, and the foot is well supported and the volume at the back of the foot is good to hold the skier back, some people tolerate it well, some people simply do not.... the heel instep perimeter is probably one of the most important measurements taken and it is rarely taken
the trouble is if someone is skiing one week a year and gets a little back seat then any boot can feel tight on the toes, equally if you wrench your heel up in even a tightly fitted boot you will lift it as it is only a bit of foam holding you in place, the same bit of foam that your heel had to push past (all be it with the boot unclipped) to get in
now chuck in the boot sellers out there who don't even shell check and if a fitter even dares to drop a size form what the measure said the skier is obviously in a boot too small and needs bigger and manufacturers who create the need to drop a size in some models by pandering to the big box stores requests to make boots longer so their customers and the "self servers" don't feel their toes at the end in the size they measure when they clip their boots up wrongly and stand bolt upright.... having worked in this industry for 30+ years now i have seen a definite "lengthening" in sizes, back in the late 80's if you measured 26.5 and put your foot into a 26.5 shell you had 15mm of space, now the same foot in a modern 26.5 can have 20-25mm of space
so what is the answer, try a smaller size than the number on the box and with some help from your boot fitter see what works for you
all that said and after i started typing this post i stopped to build some insoles for a BASI L4 instructor who brought the boots with him, in the size he has always had and with a 25mm shell check refused to even consider trying a boot a size down "as this is what he has always had" i suspect i will see him again soon to get the right size
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| gravity-slave wrote: |
I use a mechanics socket set! A socket on an extension can be slid down into the heel pocket. Go up in mm increments easily to find a snug fit, then measure the outside with a caliper. Maybe not something everyone has to hand but satisfies my inner geek (for both skiing and tools).
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Ha ha, that's a clever solution: the range of different size sockets is more accurate and possibly easier to fit.
I've used a toy xylophone stick, essentially a wooden lollypop: it fits behind the heel very well (similar to the sockets I imagine) as the 'stick' is thin, while dowels or regular sticks can hit the cuff above the heel pocket.
| gravity-slave wrote: |
On paper, 12mm is possibly tight, 22mm is quite loose. I seem to be in the middle of shell sizes for most models I've tried on and not sure where I should be aiming for a "performance tourer". Tricky!
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Exactly! Same dilemma...
| CEM wrote: |
they walk into a not so good resort shop, the staff stand them on a measure and proclaim that the boot is too small as they measure 27.0 and the boot is 26.5 therefore completely wrong WITHOUT even looking at how much space there is inside!
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Yup, nailed it!
A few year back I got my first boots from one of the known large UK chain retailer. The fitter there took the measurements and then I'm pretty sure I was initially offered to start with one size up from measured. I said I wanted a more future-proof 'performance fit', so then went on to try a couple of boots in my measuerd size (they said it was a 15mm shell check... I never verified). The boots served me well for a good 7 years.
Being kind of 'between sizes' I know the best option would be to visit a good fitter and try few models and sizes...
| CEM wrote: |
having worked in this industry for 30+ years now i have seen a definite "lengthening" in sizes, back in the late 80's if you measured 26.5 and put your foot into a 26.5 shell you had 15mm of space, now the same foot in a modern 26.5 can have 20-25mm of space
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This is really interesting... inside the industry kinda stuff.
Looking at specs for race touring boots, I noticed the shells seem to come much shorter than equivalent size freeride boots.
| CEM wrote: |
the "self servers" don't feel their toes at the end in the size they measure
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Ha ha.... "self servers".... brilliant!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@CEM, manufacturers increasing the shell length for the nominal size would explain why my boots keep getting smaller!
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Apologises if going slightly off topic. I have a pair of boots with the sizing 26/26.5. How does this relate to the size of the Boot shell and the liner
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FAQ
