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Instruction - Has thinking changed over last 15 years?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I would be interested in hearing whether/how views may have changed in the last 15 years, regarding Ski Instruction.....probably as a result of design changes in skis.

The sort of thing I'm referring to (though not limited to) could be:

- Stance width
- Importance of Snowplough and how it's taught
- Initiation - best way to achieve it
- Use of Knees vs Hips for angulation
- Pressure distribution between skis during turn
- Off Piste technique
- Pole Plant
- Short Swing turns - are they still taught?

Are there any new trends coming down the pipeline, or we pretty much "there" regarding technique?

Anyway, I would like to hear from anybody who can give insight.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 7-03-17 13:01; edited 1 time in total
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I think so...

-Heroically (ref: https://tinyurl.com/95jvr8z)
-Very; but get out of the way if it is heading towards you
-Take all your clothes off, kill a goat and climb inside it whilst singing 'Aggressive Alpine Skiing'.
(ref: https://tinyurl.com/zjywtjp)
-2-0 to the knees
-Karcher make good ones but I think there are cheaper alternatives
-Start at top, get to bottom
-Water regularly, should be damp to the touch
-Depends what she/he looks like
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@flangesax, Laughing Laughing

So things haven't changed at all....I'm back in fashion. Madeye-Smiley
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Noting of significance IMO in the last 10 years, in terms of a complete re-think, if that's what you're asking. I think differences between how individual instructors teach skiing is probably far greater than any changes in the "official" line. For me I think the best approach is to help skiers become adaptable, with as many tools in their skiing toolbox, rather than teach to a formula where there is 'right way' and a 'wrong way' to ski.
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rob@rar wrote:
Noting of significance IMO in the last 10 years, in terms of a complete re-think, if that's what you're asking. I think differences between how individual instructors teach skiing is probably far greater than any changes in the "official" line. For me I think the best approach is to help skiers become adaptable, with as many tools in their skiing toolbox, rather than teach to a formula where there is 'right way' and a 'wrong way' to ski.

Thank you for your reply - I was hoping you'd give input.

I'm aware there are differences between national approaches....so I was primarily looking at whether BASI had re-evaluated/modified its thinking. A lot of my tuition was from 2003 - 2009 and was wondering if things had changed, either fundamentally or subtly.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 7-03-17 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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Old Fartbag wrote:
I'm aware there are differences between national approaches....
I think that is a bit over-played. I think differences in approach between instructors is far greater than any differences between national associations. My teaching is influenced by all sorts of experiences I've had rather than me aiming to teach "the BASI way" (or the IASI way, or the CSIA way which I also have some interest in). The only associations where I think there is a recognisable difference in how their clients ski are the Japanese and maybe the Koreans (although I've not skied in Korea so maybe that's not the case).
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Daughter doing L3 CSIA course first thing they said " forget every thing you learnt on L2 it has all changed"
She only did L2 4 years ago so yes constant change


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 7-03-17 13:34; edited 1 time in total
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Yes Happy
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Jake43 wrote:
Daughter doing L3 CISA course first thing they said " forget every thing you learnt on L2 it has all changed"
She only did L2 4 years ago so yes constant change
Would be interested to learn what has changed. The physics of skiing remain the same, ski kit hasn't changed dramatically in the last five years, clients might have greater expectations of skiing off-piste earlier in their skiing career but even that probably hasn't changed dramatically in the last five years. I'd be interested in what the Canadians think needs a completely different approach.
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Jake43 wrote:
Daughter doing L3 CISA course first thing they said " forget every thing you learnt on L2 it has all changed"
She only did L2 4 years ago so yes constant change

Is this a Canadian thing?

It would be great if you could elaborate further?

Edit. Rob beat me to it.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 7-03-17 13:35; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar wrote:
Jake43 wrote:
Daughter doing L3 CISA course first thing they said " forget every thing you learnt on L2 it has all changed"
She only did L2 4 years ago so yes constant change
Would be interested to learn what has changed. The physics of skiing remain the same, ski kit hasn't changed dramatically in the last five years, clients might have greater expectations of skiing off-piste earlier in their skiing career but even that probably hasn't changed dramatically in the last five years. I'd be interested in what the Canadians think needs a completely different approach.

Maybe they just get bored teaching the same stuff. Did not go in to it in detail but they do put a lot of emphasis on how you teach as well as what so maybe it was more the how.
There course stuff is available on line so you could have a look
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Jake43, Canadians (and the Americans) very focused, rightly, on teaching and customer care, but I struggle to imagine how everything is different from just five years ago.
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There's words and actions - anyone that's interested, go see on youtube what level 4 CSIA trainees were doing in February 2017 , yes just last month..

Does it look radically different - in my eye's, no it doesn't.

OK, i'll post some for you. '
http://youtube.com/v/kQC2Fyz0ZcI ' now i think this is actually quite boring but it's about the ability to demonstrate very slowing with the highest level of control i guess zzz...

It takes much training and some ability to make it look that simple mind you. Laughing and, some are clearly much better demonstrators that others Shocked

Take a look at this - i like the girl at 1:37 in particular...

'
http://youtube.com/v/7MC3Kk5Ap7w ' again, i think it's very similar to CSIA level 4' in 2011/12.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Tim Heeney, That has a slightly old-school, up-unweighting look to it (1st video)....maybe necessary for going at such slow speeds?

PSIA take (if you can be bothered):


http://youtube.com/v/754k5TgtLt0


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 7-03-17 14:41; edited 2 times in total
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Old Fartbag wrote:
... for going at such slow speeds?
? You think they're skiing slowly?
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 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
... for going at such slow speeds?
? You think they're skiing slowly?

On the first of the 2 videos, I felt they were slowing things down.....could they go even slower - certainly.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
... for going at such slow speeds?
? You think they're skiing slowly?

On the first of the 2 videos, I felt they were slowing things down.....could they go even slower - certainly.
Ah sorry, I didn't see the first video, only the second.
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
... for going at such slow speeds?
? You think they're skiing slowly?

On the first of the 2 videos, I felt they were slowing things down.....could they go even slower - certainly.
Ah sorry, I didn't see the first video, only the second.

S'Ok....I'm hardly in a position to criticize, as after 2 efforts to post this thread, I still put it in the wrong place. Doh!
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@Old Fartbag, Laughing
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Interesting question, so was the last major change post "carving skis"?? ie when did tuition move away from the up/down unweighting movement? Was that the same year "shaped" skis became more main stream or did it take a bit of time to filter down?
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@kitenski, my poor recollection is having an ESF school director showing my the new manual over dinner around 2003(?)... and him commenting that this was when the new carving skis and techniques really had gone mainstream. Dates might be off ... but the implication was that the current thinking understandably took time to develop post new kit.
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I'd regard most of the turns in the CSIA vids as up unweighted, wouldn't you? They are certainly not pure carved turns (not intended to be I'm sure). Most recreational skiers use a good deal of pivoting to shed speed on a high proportion of their turns so no ski school can stop teaching unweighting, surely?

As usual, should point out that I'm not an instructor so could be all wrong about this!
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kitenski wrote:
Interesting question, so was the last major change post "carving skis"?? ie when did tuition move away from the up/down unweighting movement? Was that the same year "shaped" skis became more main stream or did it take a bit of time to filter down?

The last lesson I had on straight skis was with Dave Cowell, and he was talking about replacing up/down unweighting and minimizing "Pop", with subtle foot steering and pressing forward and across on initiation. We also worked on being more two footed, with regard to working the inside ski and keeping a Hip Width stance....I had a hangover from the 80s, where my legs got too close (which I spend years trying to perfect).

I'm not sure how long ago this was, but it was before the introduction of the Salomon X Scream Series...probably at or around the introduction of the first carving skis. I think current modern technique was in its embryonic stage and when carving skis came along, the whole thing became a lot easier/clearer.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 7-03-17 19:14; edited 1 time in total
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Are they up-unweighting? They are all using a big range of movement, but for most of them* their rate of movement was smooth and relatively slow. I don't think there is much popping up going on and they seem to be creating pressure from very early in the turn. Looks like well blended steering elements, exaggerated for the sake of a demo.

* I got bored of watching after the first four or five skiers, so the rest of them might be popping up like a jack in the box.
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rob@rar wrote:
Are they up-unweighting? They are all using a big range of movement, but for most of them* their rate of movement was smooth and relatively slow. I don't think there is much popping up going on and they seem to be creating pressure from very early in the turn. Looks like well blended steering elements, exaggerated for the sake of a demo.

* I got bored of watching after the first four or five skiers, so the rest of them might be popping up like a jack in the box.

IMHO. There is no Pop, but there certainly appears to be a degree of "standing up" to unweight.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
IMHO. There is no Pop, but there certainly appears to be a degree of "standing up" to unweight.
If you extend relatively quickly you do unweight, but not all extension movements unweight your skis. If you get the rate of movement correct you simply press the ski against the snow, ensuring there is a good connection between the ski and the snow. Going back to one of your original questions, that's why we teach people to extend when they first begin to snowplough. It's not about unweighting their skis, it's about making sure that the ski begins to turn by blending edging, pressure and twisting.
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@Old Fartbag, The posted video's really were to show IMO that
what was said to @Jake43, daughter as below:
Quote:

Daughter doing L3 CSIA course first thing they said " forget every thing you learnt on L2 it has all changed"
She only did L2 4 years ago so yes constant change


isn't as dramatic as you'd might expect ''forget everything'' etc!

However, there is a step change in skiing dynamics between CSIA / BASI/ IASI levels 2 and 3! It seems to me that movement patterns are more deliberate to get
higher performance out skis / turns in all types of snow and conditions...i guess that really is an obvious thing to say.
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Huge changes, from what I hear.
My Missus, returning from a broken ankle reserved private lessons with "Viktor" in MdC this season, apparently to restore her confidence.
Formerly a fine skier of everything, with ( a chivalrous) 20+ years of skiing behind her (I do not refer to Viktor ) they elected to start with the basics and see how far they got.
Lesson One how to initiate turns, and it was all new. Lean over the downhill knee and point up the hill? All new. She spent the holiday diligently practicing drills to hone a completely new set of skills, apparently to improve carving and not simply swishing down the hill.

I'm only a boarder who can survive on skis after a handful of lessons: so not qualified to comment more deeply.
I am however, rather tired of hearing about "Viktor", although he has proved a handy excuse to return to MdC in summer for the mtb. It will a sacrifice of course. Toofy Grin
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
IMHO. There is no Pop, but there certainly appears to be a degree of "standing up" to unweight.
If you extend relatively quickly you do unweight, but not all extension movements unweight your skis. If you get the rate of movement correct you simply press the ski against the snow, ensuring there is a good connection between the ski and the snow. Going back to one of your original questions, that's why we teach people to extend when they first begin to snowplough. It's not about unweighting their skis, it's about making sure that the ski begins to turn by blending edging, pressure and twisting.

I'm with you...ie. The difference between Extending to Unwieght versus Extending to allow Edge Change/Pressure the turning ski.

I suppose the opposite of the above, is softening the legs to change edges, so there is no upward movement....I think the Americans call it "Flex to Release" (unless that is something different again).
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@rob@rar,

You're right - they aren't really unweighting they are standing a little to flatten the edges and blend the pivot into the turn ( as @Old Fartbag points out).
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Ah - cross posted with @Old Fartbag,!
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Strax wrote:
Lean over the downhill knee and point up the hill?
I'm having trouble visualising that.

Strax wrote:
She spent the holiday diligently practicing drills to hone a completely new set of skills, apparently to improve carving and not simply swishing down the hill.
Yes, that's new, but not very new. Came in with carving skis more than 20 years ago.

Strax wrote:
I'm only a boarder who can survive on skis after a handful of lessons: so not qualified to comment more deeply.
I am however, rather tired of hearing about "Viktor", although he has proved a handy excuse to return to MdC in summer for the mtb. It will a sacrifice of course. Toofy Grin
Sounds like money well spent Happy
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jedster wrote:
@rob@rar,

You're right - they aren't really unweighting they are standing a little to flatten the edges and blend the pivot into the turn ( as @Old Fartbag points out).
Didn't look at all of the skiers, but I think the skilful ones aren't pivoting the entry to the turn, but are blending rotation in with edging at a equal rate throughout the turn.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
I suppose the opposite of the above, is softening the legs to change edges, so there is no upward movement....I think the Americans call it "Flex to Release" (unless that is something different again).
Yes, flex to release (cross-under or cross-through also used). One visualisation to help this at the end of the turn is to think about the movement you make to create the pole plant: the obvious way is to stretch out with your arm; but as an experiment can you keep you outside arm relatively still and flex your outside leg so the pole tip gets closer to the snow?
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Strax wrote:
Huge changes, from what I hear.
My Missus, returning from a broken ankle reserved private lessons with "Viktor" in MdC this season, apparently to restore her confidence.
Formerly a fine skier of everything, with ( a chivalrous) 20+ years of skiing behind her (I do not refer to Viktor ) they elected to start with the basics and see how far they got.
Lesson One how to initiate turns, and it was all new. Lean over the downhill knee and point up the hill? All new. She spent the holiday diligently practicing drills to hone a completely new set of skills, apparently to improve carving and not simply swishing down the hill.

I'm only a boarder who can survive on skis after a handful of lessons: so not qualified to comment more deeply.
I am however, rather tired of hearing about "Viktor", although he has proved a handy excuse to return to MdC in summer for the mtb. It will a sacrifice of course. Toofy Grin

If your good lady last had lessons prior to carving skis....there would indeed be large changes to be made. Been there, done that and got the T-Shirt. IMO. Some of those Old-School skills can still come in handy, in certain situations. snowHead
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Old Fartbag wrote:
Some of those Old-School skills can still come in handy, in certain situations. snowHead
+1

As I said earlier, good skiers are versatile and can use a wide range of tools depending on what they are skiing.
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@rob@rar, I think the twisting part of what you describe certainly makes sense to me... As someone who still has lessons every time I go skiing, that up/down movement is v. familiar to me from all instruction I've had over the last seven years or so.

At first I certainly related it to 'unweighting' (I can't remember if I was taught that as the reason), but in the last three years the whole twisting element seems to have come to the fore and in my mind is linked quite strongly to the way that I (attempt) to keep my upper body quiet. This is certainly the case in short turns where the 'up/down' movement is be captured by flexing /extending the legs at angles beneath me whilst I try to keep my shoulders level. At least that is the theory in my head!
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Some of those Old-School skills can still come in handy, in certain situations. snowHead
+1

As I said earlier, good skiers are versatile and can use a wide range of tools depending on what they are skiing.

Would I be right in saying that Mogul Skiing has changed little, in like - forever......though perhaps Moguls themselves have changed, due to skis having got a lot shorter.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
Would I be right in saying that Mogul Skiing has changed little, in like - forever......though perhaps Moguls themselves have changed, due to skis having got a lot shorter.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how moguls skiing were taught back in the day.
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Would I be right in saying that Mogul Skiing has changed little, in like - forever......though perhaps Moguls themselves have changed, due to skis having got a lot shorter.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how moguls skiing were taught back in the day.


I will throw that question out to the Floor.

I personally don't see much difference, unless you are good (mad) enough to carve through steeper bumps on 11M Radius Skis.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 7-03-17 18:00; edited 1 time in total
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