 Poster: A snowHead
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I bought some new skis 2 weeks ago, rossignol temptation 80's, and I loved them. Had them serviced after encountering quite a lot of rather stoney pistes. Went out on them today and oh my god I could barely ski!!!
Now it had been raining and the snow was quite wet, the visibility not great, not my favourite conditions but I could hardly make the skis turn. I took them to a ski shop I've used in the past (not where they were serviced) and he said the edges had been sharpened for the full length of the ski, I.e including the rocker. He took the edges down, I went back out, still no good. I explained how and what I like to ski i.e reds, blues, not blacks and no off piste. He took the edges down again and I went back out but I still wasn't happy. He redid the bases and took the edges down further and they seemed better although by that time we'd had enough of the rubbish conditions and came home.
I felt like some sort of mad woman, I went from confident skier loving the skis to skiing like a complete numpty........is it me or the service?? This guy said that putting the skis through the machine changes them and advised me to ask that they don't use it. Any experts here to offer advise/opinion?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skimum, I had the same problem many years agoon old-style skis. I caught every edge that was going until a friendly instructor grabbed a nearby rock and give my edges a good going over with it. Skis worked fine after that!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am not an expert but bro-in-law works in a very well regarded shop. They typically use a machine but it is state of the art and can get pretty close to hand tuned quality (and at the same time, a greater degree of precision and repeatability in bulk).
Late last season they serviced our skis and they were close to unskiable. One of the machine's adjustments had gone awry and the edges had been done at some ridiculous angle so they were literally grabbing at the snow. I tried taking the edge off but didn't have any tools so it took a full re-service to fix.
Sharpening tip to tail shouldn't in and of itself cause problems.
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Bad service.
That "taking down the edges" isn't right either.
You need a proper hand job off someone who knows what they're doing. That first person made a right fist of it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mosha Marc, well thank you for that, glad it wasn't me , although I do hope it hasn't ruined my new skis. The guy I took them too today did it all by hand, but given I havent a clue about ski servicing I don't really know if he did the right thing or not!
@foxtrotzulu, @under a new name, it's incredibly disconcerting, especially when you find out at the top of a lift and have to ski quite a long way!
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| You need a proper hand job off someone |
Might make the day better but don't think that would help with the skis... 
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| Quote: |
Mosha Marc wrote:
You need a proper hand job off someone
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Sounds like a lovely idea but what do you recommend for the skis?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Per se there isn't much to edge sharpening.
As others suggest if going through a machine only logic is that the machine was set up wrong or was faulty.
It wouldn't matter the edges were sharpened the full length.
Putting through a machine may take off unnecessary base or edge but it shouldn't change the ski's, other than making the base smooth and the edges sharp obviously.
Taking down the edges down i.e., blunting them is the not the way to solve the problem.
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Are the bases of the ski flat or concave? If you have a true edge put it across the bottom of the skis - if you can see light coming through a gap in the middle of the ski the bases aren't true and they will be horrible to ski on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Could be a number of things and is less likely to be you. Things to check straight off the bat:
1) Get a thin straight edged item. Hold it across the ski and hold the ski up to the light. Are they concave?
2) How deep is the structure on the base? Does it look deeper or shallower than it did when they were new? A deep base grind will work if you are Svindal, it's going to suck for pretty much everyone else.
3) Have they accidentally imparted the pattern intended for the base into the base edges?
I've mentioned those things as they are all common shop issues that might make a ski hard to turn. There are other ways of screwing up a tune but those are harder to diagnose without the right tools.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@skimum, I had the same on old straight skis after a UK based service many many years ago, on mine and my sisters skis. First run pushed off, and they were un-skiable, couldn't turn at all. A bit of de-tuning with Swiss army knife file, got us down the piste. We went straight into nearest ski shop, and operator asked who tuned them, as they were sharp tip to tail. He ran them though his edge tuning process, didn't charge us, and we were able to ski again.
The second incident was on much more modern 2010-11 Line Sir Frances Bacon skis. I had been skiing with an instructor, and they recommended a ski service at a highly regarded shop. Took them in, collected them the next day, and with the same instructor, I really couldn't ski on them. The instructor went with me at lunchtime to the shop, and explained in German to the shop, that the tune/service was wrong (which they didn't believe), but they took the skis back. When I collected them the boss of the shop, asked who the instructor was, and when I gave the name he was knew them and was happy that the information was correct. He had personally carried out the re-service, and ask me to return at the end of the next day to confirm I was happy. Thankfully the skis were back to normal, but I never found out what was wrong (certainly no base grind has been performed).
My assumption was that rockered skis were still quite new, and the automated machine could not cope in some way, and it was corrected by a manual tune.
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Well it's reassuring to know that other people have had the same experience, and that it's more likely to be the service than me!
Thanks @gorilla, @rob@rar, @Layne, for your suggestions. Hopefully they'll behave themselves tomorrow and the problem will be solved but it does rather put me off getting them done again, although eventually I'll have to. The thing is how do you know who's good and who isn't, it's an expensive piece of kit and you assume that people know what they're doing!
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You know it makes sense.
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@skimum, most of the time, most places in decent places will do a decent job.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimum, I would avoid the weekend at any big shop, as they maybe servicing hundreds of pairs of skis from the previous weeks rentals and short break weekenders. As with anything else human error will feature in a small percentage of actions, it maybe on yours or one of the rentals. You know what yours were like the day before, so you really notice, the new renter doesn't.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimum, very bad tune. This happened to me right before a ski exam. It was an absolute disaster. Lots of attempts to rectify to no avail. I will never ever ever put my skis in a shop again. There is only person I will trust to touch my skis now if they need base work and I will do the side edges myself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skimum, it's tricky.
You were probably unlucky. To be honest I would have taken them back to the shop that serviced them first of all and spoke to the shop manager. You may have got a good reaction as it could have just been human error or a problem with the machine. But regardless I wouldn't have a downer on shop servicing in general.
Having said that there are good reasons a lot of us turn to DIY
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sometimes if the edges are done last there can be a hanging burr that points down. Really causes problems LOL. As for detuning, I ski big rockered skis on piste sometimes and run a 3 degree edge angle as sharp as I can get it. Never had a problem with it hooking up but have been thankful for it on icy steep blacks. Sharpening by hand though does mean that the tips and tails are unlikely to be as sharp as the middle section due to the vice limitations and keeping the ends stable. 
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@Scarpa, I think it was a hanging burr that caused my problems, and this why a big blunt rock was an effective solution in that instance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| Sometimes if the edges are done last there can be a hanging burr that points down. |
Don't get that. Last after what?
The general advice is to not do anything with the base edge. And indeed, after a quick run down the base edge purely to remove any burrs or dinks, I do the side edge, then wax. If anything needs ptexing that is done at the start. Just can't see how you get a hanging burr 
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You get a hanging burr from filing the side edge. Normally removed by running a gummy stone gently along the Base edge!
Yes if you are happy with the skis, don't alter the Base edge. But if they go in for a shop service the Base bevel may well be altered which can effect how they ski, which I suspect is what happened to the original poster.
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| Quote: |
Don't get that. Last after what?
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Everything else?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have been servicing my skis myself for some time now. (about 10 years). Initially I tried candle wax, and edged the skis myself using an edger. I then progressed to ski wax, after cleaning the base and wiping old wax and dirt off. I have always used a deep gouge filler myself whenever I got big divets out of the base. The only real difference it makes between a good wax and a bad waxing is that the skis go slower, and the wax wears off quicker.
As for edging the skis. The way I ski, it really makes little difference except on icy pistes. This is when you need it sharp at the right angle. I cannot think why you would need the tips of the skis edged, I never ski on the tips of my skis.
Fiddling with the bingdings, and checking them is something which technicians do too. They can change DIN settings, but they usually let you know about this. Always check your own DIN settings, and do a manual check that the boot releases from the side before you ski on them.
In the old days people used to just ski on wooden skis with no wax. Slower, but less servicing required.
I add some of these glide products to the base before each ski session. (i.e. cold liquid wax )
Sometimes I prefer my skis to go slower on the piste, especially if I want to go slower down a big steep. Provided there are no big gouges in the base, no wax is often the best wax.
www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=80575&highlight=
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@Layne, I suspect the problem with the op skis was altering ie reducing the base edge bevel not the hanging burr!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've seen this issue loads of times. The problem with many machines, especially the fully automated ones, is that they don't/can't pressure the tip of the ski sufficiently to cut a proper (usually 1 degree) base edge angle in that area & this often includes the area around the contact points.
Add to this the good chance that the (excessive) hanging burr hasn't been fully removed & you've got yourself an unskiable ski. The standard shop fix is to ensure that the hanging burr is fully removed & then to heavily detune the contact areas - with the problem that you've now got little bite right were you need it if on ice etc.
The correct fix is to ensure that the hanging burr is fully removed & then reset the base edge angle at the tips/contact points with a diamond file which will take no more than 5 minutes max. If the ski is still a bit hooky even with a correct base bevel & no hanging burr then just add a tad more base edge angle at the contact points (say 1.25-1.5) that way the edge will engage more progressively but you'll still have full length sharpness.
Simples 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| 3) Have they accidentally imparted the pattern intended for the base into the base edges? |
Not heard of that before but makes sense to look out for on a bad base grind...
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Thanks for all your replies and suggestions. Someone who I was told is an expert with many many years of experience looked at the skis yesterday, which are still a nightmare, and said that they are slightly twisted, that they were twisted going through the machine! He did as rob@rar and gorilla had suggested and laid a flat instrument along the bases and reached that decision. I took them back to the shop yesterday but the boss wasn't there, I left the skis there and I'll go back today. Bottom line is i don't want the skis after they've been wrecked by a poor service, I'm hoping for a refund or new pair, we'll see!
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You know it makes sense.
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oh, just to clarify. When I was talking about tips and tails I meant the ends of the running edges, not the actual curved ends of the skis. My fat skis have an abs plastic section (boat hull design) so there is no edge to sharpen on the main part of the rocker section. On the all mountain skis I sharpen them just like I do a piste ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimum wrote: |
| Someone... said that they are slightly twisted, that they were twisted going through the machine! |
To add conjecture to conjecture, while this someone may be entirely correct that the skis are twisted, and that they were so when they went through the machine, I doubt anyone could definitively say the twisting was caused by said machine.
Best of luck, i sincerely hope you end up with a set of skis you're happy using! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimum wrote: |
I bought some new skis 2 weeks ago, rossignol temptation 80's, and I loved them. Had them serviced after encountering quite a lot of rather stoney pistes. Went out on them today and oh my god I could barely ski!!!
Now it had been raining and the snow was quite wet, the visibility not great, not my favourite conditions but I could hardly make the skis turn. I took them to a ski shop I've used in the past (not where they were serviced) and he said the edges had been sharpened for the full length of the ski, I.e including the rocker. He took the edges down, I went back out, still no good. I explained how and what I like to ski i.e reds, blues, not blacks and no off piste. He took the edges down again and I went back out but I still wasn't happy. He redid the bases and took the edges down further and they seemed better although by that time we'd had enough of the rubbish conditions and came home.
I felt like some sort of mad woman, I went from confident skier loving the skis to skiing like a complete numpty........is it me or the service?? This guy said that putting the skis through the machine changes them and advised me to ask that they don't use it. Any experts here to offer advise/opinion? |
I have Temptation 80s and had them serviced before I went away. Afterwards they were as good as they were when new, so I would say the tune you had was definitely wrong. I love the 80s BTW! Great skis.
The same issue you had happened to me with my old Dynastar Idylls - I had them waxed and edged and they were just as you describe: terrible.
It was like they were trying to kill me; every time I tried to turn on them, the tips grabbed the snow and I kept falling over. The first run was in boot deep fresh snow and poor vis, and I was hopeless, I couldn't understand it. The skis were all over the place. I took them down La Face in Val the next day and it was terrifying! I just couldn't ski on them. I detuned the tips with a gummi stone and they were a bit better, but they still weren't right. It took another full service to fix them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well I went back to the shop today, they don't doubt that I've had a problem since the service but they said they couldn't identify anything majorly wrong. They're going to take it up with rossignol and have given me a new pair of skis  I couldn't have hoped for a better outcome!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@HoneyBunny, yes it was just as you described, as if the skis were trying to kill me. Not funny! Thankfully it's all sorted, not sure I'll ever get them serviced though
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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wow that is a great result, shame you had to go through the problems but it seems they stepped up and sorted it out.
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All credit to the shop for having such a customer focus.
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@Old Fartbag, absolutely, I was really surprised when they came straight out with the new skis, I was expecting to have to resort to tears 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimum wrote: |
| Well I went back to the shop today, they don't doubt that I've had a problem since the service but they said they couldn't identify anything majorly wrong. They're going to take it up with rossignol and have given me a new pair of skis I couldn't have hoped for a better outcome! |
They couldn't identify anything wrong but they've given you a new pair of skis? That sounds very odd! But very happy for you that they've resolved the problem without any hesitation - good for them.
A bad tune (hanging burrs, wrong edge angles, etc) is not great to ski on, but in the grand scheme of things not such a big deal. But a ski which is left concave because of a bad base grind or some other kind of problem is just about unskiable.
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