Seen this on Reddit , pretty scary stuff and as an intermediate who is improving and taking on steeper and steeper slopes it is now something i need to know!
From the comments on the above , it would seem best technique is to roll over and lie feet first on stomach and dig poles in above your head?
Anyone any tips or advice on that.
Also worth watching the couple of you tube links further down the thread , crazy how fast you lose control.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Self arrest is very occasionally useful but needs some practice. With an ice axe it's very effective, with ski poles much less so.
First off, you need to have your hands out of your straps, the next thing to achieve is to get feet first which is a result in itself as your ski boots can take a lot more than your head. If you are head first then holding tightly on to one pole with two hands close to the tip, stick it into the snow by your waist and rotate around it to end up feet first. Now holding the pole in the same way directly above your shoulder dig the tip in the snow. If you are going fast it will most likely be snatched out of your hand unless you start carefully.
Much more importantly on steep ground where you won't stop is to ski well within your limits and in control so you don't fall in the first place.
Just watched the two videos, in the first the guy was clearly way out of his depth, the snow was fine but right from the start he is lowering himself on the piste rope! He shouldn't have been there.
In the second, the guy did the right thing, haven fallen he fought to get his feet below himself which is safest by far. He was going very fast and trying a self arrest with a ski pole would not have been very easy. At that speed digging in his feet (with crampons would be much worse) could have started him into a dangerous tumble.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I scared myself silly on the Cristaux black run at Val Thorens this year. It was probably overdue as having had quick a few years with no incidents at all it's easy to become blasé about the dangers of the mountains.
It was the week before the EOSB just a few weeks ago. The run was very icy, virtually compacted sheet ice and a sign at the top saying it was tricky. I was picking my way down and another skier nudged into me and we both fell. It was one of those 50:50 things and we both laughed and nodded to each other. We were both going slowly and nobody was hurt. The sun was shining and everything seemed great.
My skies had come off and I picked up one and started to walk to the other. Which was probably stupid. I completely lost my footing on the ice of the piste, which is fairly steep on Cristaux, and just went sliding down going quicker and quicker feet first on my front. Luckily i still had a ski in my hands and tried to use that to slow myself down. I went past about 5 100 metre markers and it was only the levelling of the piste that enabled me to stop.
I don't mind admitting that it was absolutely terrifying to slide down with no control or ability to stop. I was just trying to remember if there were any cliffs around there.
I can't see poles being much help. If you don't have the straps on (I don't use them) the poles are quite likely to be torn out of your hands. If you do have the straps on they are quite likely to be torn out of your hands, taking some thumbs with them.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've had to arrest falls twice this year, one in Campitello and one at the EoSB in Val Thorens. Both were at pretty low speeds and I wasn't in any immediate danger.
The first was when I had a bit of a brain fail and the woman behind me (too close) skied straight into me and knocked me under the rope off the side of the piste. My skis were still on, though pointing in opposite directions, and I was feet first on my stomach, so dug the edges of my skis in and my hands as much as I could in order to stop. It turns out I was in a small bowl so would only have gone about another 10m anyway, but didn't know that and with the firm snow wasn't sure if I was about to go over a cliff!
In Val T, I fell when skiing off-piste. This time I knew what was below me as we'd skied there before and I knew the steepness would ease off and the route was clear of rocks. However, one ski was off and I didn't fancy a long walk and didn't seem to be slowing down on quite a steep slope. This time there was about 30cm fresh snow, so digging is the remaining ski edge to stop was quite easy, as again I'd managed to fall feet first face down. Handily, my other ski was gently following me down, so it was just getting it back on that was the main problem in the soft snow.
The first one was far scarier because I didn't know and couldn't see what was below me. I wasn't really carrying any speed, otherwise I think that fall would've been a lot harder to stop. I have no idea what was going on with my poles either time. I don't remember having to collect them so I'm guessing they were still attached, though I'm not certain I was still holding them.
After all it is free
After all it is free
How likely an accident is that to happen?
ive never fallen on a real steep slope and for some reason never thought that i would start accelerating downhill out of control
Not overly worried , just curious to how likely it is and should i "practice" stopping or just learn it all and hope it comes naturally should i slip.
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jbob wrote:
In the second, the guy did the right thing, haven fallen he fought to get his feet below himself which is safest by far. He was going very fast and trying a self arrest with a ski pole would not have been very easy. At that speed digging in his feet (with crampons would be much worse) could have started him into a dangerous tumble.
The video is deceptive but as far as I can see it is a black piste so presumably in the 25 degree range, with hard snow it could be quite difficult to slow down. The take out, as you say, is that self arrest in those conditions is not easy, lying on an ice-axe would probably have done it, even whippets.
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@hawkwind, I'd be surprised if anyone said they've never fallen when starting to ski black runs (unless they skiied from so young they don't remember) and not slid out of control for a while. If it's hard snow or ice, it's scary as you pick up speed.
Just stick your arm out to rotate yourself feet down. If you've got one or two skis on still, it's usually easy to dig it in and stop. Not found poles much use myself. I've not lost both skis (yet), but I imagine it's hard to stop. On a normal piste you are pretty safe. Probably more likely to take out someone else.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Themasterpiece, interesting that he says to find a steep and practice it. There's a lot of lessons and information regarding technique on bumps or off-piste etc. but doesn't seem to be so much about falling over. I know that the theory is that you get good enough at skiing to not fall over, but it does take some time and effort to get that good in the first place.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I was fortunate enough to ski with someone who told me early on to stop i.e., self arrest asap and we discussed how to. But honestly the most important bit is the asap bit.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@SnoodyMcFlude, yeh you are right. It's got me thinking to practice. "Ok kids, leave skis at the top. Start head first..."
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@hawkwind, it's rare that any sort of "arrest" is necessary. The guy in the vid was unlucky.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@hawkwind, it's rare that any sort of "arrest" is necessary. The guy in the vid was unlucky.
I was fortunate enough to ski with someone who told me early on to stop i.e., self arrest asap and we discussed how to. But honestly the most important bit is the asap bit.
Yes, that's what I was thinking as I was hurtling down the slope getting quicker and quicker.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Cheers for the replies , i have a better understanding now, hopefully i dont have to use it too often!
Anytime i fall on a steep im always gingerly short turning down so stop pretty much right away , can see how a bit more speed would cause you to lose concentration and gather speed before catching on.
I think its a great way to learn just reading about these things with the general idea being your mind will have the information there somewhere should an accident ever occur and will kick in with adrenaline.
Watching the two videos again , the snowboarders must be lost or something , thats a long drop and both of them look well out of their depth , understandable trying something beyond your abilities if it flattens out or is perfect conditions , thats a big drop with rocks and moguls , either lost or stupid and looks like nothing he could of done once he fell , almost as if he knew it was going to happen , he had started to lose control and pick up speed well before he tried clutching at the marker.
The other one is speed , the guy is starting to pick up speed just as he falls , looks like he was in some sort of control and weird he doesnt dig the pole in when he is on his belly as he is using his hands at that point. Its lucky the slope was empty and also the net was there and not something solid , he was getting faster closer to the bottom of the slope.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This is how I stopped on the steep part of the Cortina Downhill run when I skidded. Works a treat.
After all it is free
After all it is free
hawkwind wrote:
Watching the two videos again , the snowboarders must be lost or something , thats a long drop and both of them look well out of their depth , understandable trying something beyond your abilities if it flattens out or is perfect conditions , thats a big drop with rocks and moguls , either lost or stupid and looks like nothing he could of done once he fell , almost as if he knew it was going to happen , he had started to lose control and pick up speed well before he tried clutching at the marker.
.
I think the snowboarders are on a normal piste as there are other skiiers around. Just some moguls and totally out their depth. The marker says "STOP Fatal Fall", but that is what's on the other side of the rope. I think he was grabbing the marker pole in a panic as he was heading towards the fatal fall, and fell down the other direction.
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hawkwind wrote:
From the comments on the above , it would seem best technique is to roll over and lie feet first on stomach and dig poles in above your head?
Shoulder level or even a bit lower, not above your head, you need to get your weight onto the pole. I've never done with a ski pole but was taught and made to practise ice-axe arrest. Getting this into muscle-memory is good because it's a lot easier to stop immediately than once you have picked up speed.
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Quote:
Just some moguls and totally out their depth.
This. They're edging the side of the piste to avoid the lumps, slips and goes out of bounds. The snowboard arresting technique I was... I won't say taught... but had explained to me was to try to orientate yourself so you're on your back, with the board uphill of you and try to dig the board in on the heel edge, rather than on your back with the board in front you as if the heel edge catches, it can flip you over and then you're rag-dolling down. The Giles Green thing (feet downhill, on your front, do a pushup)that @Alastair Pink mentioned sounds like the fast route to a back slam on a snowboard.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As jbob says - the first guy is totally out of his depth. I'm not as snowboarder but I'd always assumed that you would need to get onto your heel edge with feet below you to stop. I imagine getting feet down hill is similar as for a skier - you just need to press a hand or elbow down to give some resistance to pivot around.
On the second video, I've had a similar incident. I was spring skiing at Tignes and headed off down Trolles first thing in the morning while it was still refrozen corduroyed slush from the night before. I came over the lip at the start of the steep section a bit too quick and my skis slid sideways chattering against the frozen ridges. One ski just pinged and I was sliding on my hip. "Ok" I thought, "get on the edge of my other ski and slow down". The other ski pinged and I was accelerating. I can't remember what happened to my poles. In those days I used my straps (don't often now) but they must have come loose as I was trying to pivot myself around.
Anyway I ended up in my desired position, feet downhill, facing the slope ready to press up onto my toes, elbows and fists - believe this is the recommended approach. Because it was spring I was just wearing a goretex shell over thermals. When I pushed up I found that my hands and elbows got a hell of a battering from the frozen corduroy - though I was going to injure myself. So I flipped over onto my back and slid down feet first, knees bent a little, head up a bit looking for obstacles. I couldn't see anything particlarly bad news so I just rode it out. If I'd been heading for a rock or a cliff I'd have to have sacrificed my arms. Eventually I came to a fairly gentle stop at the edge of the piste but I gone the full length of the steep section on Trolles which is a bloody long way.
I was absolutely fine but it did show me how hard it can be to stop in icy conditions, even if it is only 25 degrees or so. The truth is that I had been taking the piste a bit too flippantly, misjudging the conditions. If I'd been off-piste with more hazards around it's unlikely I'd have been going too fast in the first place.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
I'd always assumed that you would need to get onto your heel edge with feet below you to stop.
Fair assumption - and that is what you see most people doing and it's not a problem normally, but if you're on a very steep pitch, pushing your heels down at pace with your body-weight above it, its very easy to catch the heel edge, compress your knees and will send you 'over the handlebars' in a forward roll, so it makes sense for the breaking force to be behind the centre of mass.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
In solden a few years ago, i found a ski at the top of a black...i picked it up and skied to the bottom where The owner was just starting to stand up.... (Prat didnt say thanks either ) .. He had no idea how to stop
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Your experience is similar to mine and I think the first thing I am going to do this December is practice these stoping techniques.
jedster wrote:
As jbob says - the first guy is totally out of his depth. I'm not as snowboarder but I'd always assumed that you would need to get onto your heel edge with feet below you to stop. I imagine getting feet down hill is similar as for a skier - you just need to press a hand or elbow down to give some resistance to pivot around.
On the second video, I've had a similar incident. I was spring skiing at Tignes and headed off down Trolles first thing in the morning while it was still refrozen corduroyed slush from the night before. I came over the lip at the start of the steep section a bit too quick and my skis slid sideways chattering against the frozen ridges. One ski just pinged and I was sliding on my hip. "Ok" I thought, "get on the edge of my other ski and slow down". The other ski pinged and I was accelerating. I can't remember what happened to my poles. In those days I used my straps (don't often now) but they must have come loose as I was trying to pivot myself around.
Anyway I ended up in my desired position, feet downhill, facing the slope ready to press up onto my toes, elbows and fists - believe this is the recommended approach. Because it was spring I was just wearing a goretex shell over thermals. When I pushed up I found that my hands and elbows got a hell of a battering from the frozen corduroy - though I was going to injure myself. So I flipped over onto my back and slid down feet first, knees bent a little, head up a bit looking for obstacles. I couldn't see anything particlarly bad news so I just rode it out. If I'd been heading for a rock or a cliff I'd have to have sacrificed my arms. Eventually I came to a fairly gentle stop at the edge of the piste but I gone the full length of the steep section on Trolles which is a bloody long way.
I was absolutely fine but it did show me how hard it can be to stop in icy conditions, even if it is only 25 degrees or so. The truth is that I had been taking the piste a bit too flippantly, misjudging the conditions. If I'd been off-piste with more hazards around it's unlikely I'd have been going too fast in the first place.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Prat didnt say thanks either
Maybe he was in a state of shock (or maybe he was just a prat...)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
I picked it up and skied to the bottom
Three times I did this this season, THREE TIMES for different skiers, Nice Mr Snowboarder that I am.
Oh you silly skiers, always leaving your stuff lying around, at least when My People leave stuff lying there, we're usually still attached to it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Richard_Sideways,
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Can be hard to stop if the pitch is sufficently steep and icy even when you are firmly attached to all your kit. I distinctly remember on an EOSB losing an edge on the run down to glacier chair ( to be fair the edges were definitely not in the sharpest condition) and then having an increasing sense of doom as i slid slowly down the piste my edges bouncing off the glaze at every attempt. I most remember though was a father with his child watching me as I slid inexorably toward them, but doing nothing to get out of the path despite my gestures and warnings.
Ice axe arrest is hard if you have any speed, you have to be quick.
Fernie's not really a great place for beginners. Double-black diamond runs and people who stand on their boards like that don't mix well. I'd have given those guys all the room they needed.
I think snowboards are different from skis in these circumstances because the board has most of the resistance, and it doesn't come off. Hence it will end up above the out of control moron, as it did here.
I've never really experienced anything like that. I guess it gets progressively harder to do anything as your speed increases, but experienced peoples' instincts would likely ensure that never happens. When speed skiers lose it on the course, there's nothing at all they can do (because they are already going to fast for the force they can apply), hence they have bunkers for the photographers and house-sized inflatable crash barriers. I recall that speed snowboard rules (not full FIS) stipulate that the board bindings must release - presumably because you're going to fast too help yourself, so you want the gear out of the equation.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
yorkshirelad wrote:
In solden a few years ago, i found a ski at the top of a black...i picked it up and skied to the bottom where The owner was just starting to stand up.... (Prat didnt say thanks either ) .. He had no idea how to stop
If it was icy, then perhaps even with a good idea of how to stop he just could't. I watched so many slide all the way down an icy steep this week that I think no matter how much you know, if gravity speed and ice are against you then you're screwed. I watched one poor lad go over the ledge, he was a great skier, did a turn , skis slipped sideways, he grappled turned did EVERYTHING , still didn't stop till he hit the bottom. For the rest of the week I watched that steep, and most of those that fell took quite a while to stop, some managing to stop half way, others not so lucky. Ice can make a massive difference.
Funnily enough I did a fairly fast wipe out today on an extremely scraped icy section (that grey shiny stuff) where we had earlier been watching almost everyone who tried it falling and sliding. I slid about 15 metres, did a push up with both fists and stopped with the ski edges momentarily before using the momentum to rock back on my feet. It was hard work though, a lot of the weight was on my thumb tips.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jedster, oww. I think falling all the way down the steep section of Trolles on a spring morning when it's iced up is quite a common experience. I've not done it- but from the start of the thread I thought that Trolles would be an obvious place to have an epic slide. It can be brutal at the best of times and I know that it is like concrete on an April morning. Owwwww! Yours sounds quite nasty and I'm glad you were ok. My brother in law rag dolled down just to the left on and then off the piste- we had rented a GPS (about 10 years ago)- he bounced!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Think of the poor person in the second video - that is a long long walk to get your skis back.
I wonder why he didn't roll onto his front, grasp the pole just above the basket place it by his shoulder and gently brake. Incidently you can do this with the other arm still in strap. I think he was actually enjoying the ride. In most resorts you will see children doing this - they walk up the slope put a bit a plastic on their bottom and slide down.
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johnE wrote:
Think of the poor person in the second video - that is a long long walk to get your skis back.
I wonder why he didn't roll onto his front, grasp the pole just above the basket place it by his shoulder and gently brake. Incidently you can do this with the other arm still in strap. I think he was actually enjoying the ride. In most resorts you will see children doing this - they walk up the slope put a bit a plastic on their bottom and slide down.
I don't think so.
One of things my mate told me early on is try to stop yourself completely and get upright a-sap.
As seen in both these cases once you are flying, your are fecked. Even on a short pitch with a safe run out there is the danger of taking someone out. There are slopes and times (empty cruising blue run, not very steep powder slope) when you can afford the luxury of being a bit more relaxed but just never underestimate the ability of a wee full to turn into a full on dangerous slide. No doubt on my next holiday I'll end up doing something that completely bites me in the bum on this advice!
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johnE wrote:
I wonder why he didn't roll onto his front, grasp the pole just above the basket place it by his shoulder and gently brake.
I would suggest two reasons
i. he didn't think of it
ii. it is easier to write on a web forum than to put into practice
anyway they should make skis out of whatever his ski pants are made of, it seems to slide fantastically well, no need for wax even!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Maybe he was in a state of shock (or maybe he was just a prat...)
